Talk:Nicolás Maduro/Archive 4

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Edit request on 27 March 2024, Nicolás Maduro biography error.

Nicolás Maduro Moros (Spanish: [nikoˈlas maˈðuɾo ˈmoɾos] ^ⓘ; born 23 November 1962) is a Venezuelan politician who has served as the president of Venezuela since 2013.

This definition of Nicolás Maduro is wrong and outdated.

Nicolás Maduro is not to be considered a President, since elections in Venezuela failed to follow any international guidelines for democratic elections even before 2013, the year Maduro came into power. Nicolás Maduro is in fact a dictator, persecuting any legitimate opposition inside the country. Also committed many violations of Human Rights through the use of Venezuela's security forces, as reported in Protests against Nicolás Maduro. His government's attitude towards democracy in the 2024 Venezuelan elections have been dictatorial from the very start, purging UN observers from the country. As of March 27th 2024, Maduro also barred Corina Yoris from running for presidency. Yoris was already a substitute runner for María Corina Machado, a persecuted Venezuelan politician impeded from running for office by the Venezuelan Supreme Justice for 15 years, after winning the primary elections with 90% of the popular vote.

Suggested changes:

Nicolás Maduro Moros (Spanish: [nikoˈlas maˈðuɾo ˈmoɾos] ^ⓘ; born 23 November 1962) is a Venezuelan politician who has ruled as a dictator in the country of Venezuela since 2013.

Sources: https://2017-2021.state.gov/a-democratic-crisis-in-venezuela/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/27/venezuela-court-disqualifies-leading-opposition-presidential-candidate https://salazar.house.gov/media/press-releases/chairwoman-salazar-invites-venezuelan-presidential-candidate-maria-corina https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/25/venezuela-s-new-opposition-candidate-an-unknown-80-year-old-academic_6653224_4.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliasferrerbreda/2024/03/11/the-regime-must-negotiate-with-me-interview-with-maria-corina-machado/?sh=74fdc01c6ac6 FardoObsceno (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, the first sentence of biographical articles should usually avoid contentious terms. See articles of other similar political leaders for examples (e.g. Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, etc.). Consensus is needed to make an exception. Liu1126 (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The suggested edit previously submitted in itself, does not contain "contentious terms". The justification does, and it's not against the rules. After severe evaluation I can say your justification for blocking this edit is just as contentious. Consensus is found as per previously mentioned sources. I believe you're being biased, how can I contact support? FardoObsceno (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The contentious term is precisely the word "dictator". The word itself is a negative term that is considered contentious and possibly non-NPOV (see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 22#Category:Dictators and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators). You are also seriously misunderstanding the concept of consensus. This is not about whether there's consensus among sources, but whether there's consensus among editors. If you think consensus may develop for using the term in the first sentence, feel free to start a new discussion on this talk page. You are also warned that accusing others of bias may be seen as a personal attack. Liu1126 (talk) 03:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

See Supreme Leader (North Korean title) for reference of similar - if not synonymous - words that fit current Venezuelan leader's title, Maduro exerts power through supreme characteristics given by illegitimate elections, thus Venezuela fits characteristics of Dictator thus it should be corrected. Again there's disagreement in other descriptions for what both of your observations considering Dictator as a contentious. It's simply accurate. FardoObsceno (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit: There's a wrong reference to Dictator, the correct reference should be Dictatorship as the subject is the country of Venezuela. FardoObsceno (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you intend to show by referencing the Supreme Leader (North Korean title) article; a personal comparison of two leadership positions, unbacked by reliable sources, can hardly demonstrate an equivalence between the two, and the Supreme Leader article itself doesn't use the word dictator or synonyms of the word anyway.

To summarise what I believe is the conflict so far, my position is that the term "dictator" is a contentious term and hence would be unadvisable to be used in the first sentence per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE save for exceptional circumstances, while you believe that since Maduro's activities and the current political state of Venezuela fit the descriptions of a dictator and a dictatorship, respectively, the use of such term should not be considered contentious.

I will be absent for an extended period of time starting from the end of this month and hence cannot continue this discussion past then, but my position has been stated quite clearly above and we seem to have reached an impasse anyway. I have left messages with a few relevant WikiProjects in hope that their members will join us here and help reach consensus. Liu1126 (talk) 02:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Accession date

It says that Maduro became the president on 5 March 2013 as soon as his predecessor, Hugo Chávez died. However, Maduro became the acting president on 5 March and didn't officially become the president until 19 April of that same year.

Suggested changes:

Assumed office: 19 April 2013 Acting: 5 March – 19 April 2013 219.77.28.65 (talk) 07:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I do see your point. However, I believe acting president is sufficient. I looked up examples of people who took their position prior to being elected: Ed Lee, Lyndon B. Johnson, and Gerald Ford. In every case, the assumption of office is based on the date they starting acting in the capacity of that position. So for Maduro, the date should be 5 March 2013 rather than 19 April 2013. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I get it on how you see it, but then Ed Lee, Gerald Ford, and Lyndon B. Johnson were never Acting Presidents (and Mayor) as they became the new president (for Johnson and Ford) and mayor (for Lee) as soon their predecessors (Assassination of John F. Kennedy for LBJ, Resignation for Ford, and the resignation of Gavin Newsom for Lee) term came to an end.

Maduro however is different, and there is a point on why it shoudl be 19 April 2013, not 5 March. When he became the Acting President, it was on the news. From 5 March to 19 April 2013, Maduro was reffered to as the Acting (or Interim as some people would call it) President, not President. Ford, Johnson, and Lee has nothing to do with this as like I said, they're never Acting Presidents (and Mayor). Even in other wikipedias (especially the spanish Wikipedia), Maduro's accession date is clearly 19 April, not 5 March.

I understand that you think that the assumption of office is based on the date they starting acting in the capacity of that position. Also, in Google, it clearly says that Maduro's assumption of office as president is 19 April, not 5 March.

This is an evidence, but also, there is a reason. Some people will get confused as Maduro's real accession date is 19 April, but here says 5 March. So please, change it. If you don't want it, let's at least hold a vote. Also, you can just put Acting: 5 March – 19 April 2013 below the assumption date.

Also, for the President of Venezuela page, don't change back the entire page just because of the accession date, at least you should have just changed the accession date, not the entire page, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 13:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Even in other wikipedias (especially the spanish Wikipedia), Maduro's accession date is clearly 19 April, not 5 March.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. If you are not familiar with reliable sources, see: WP:RS. However, it would probably be better to have consistency across the various languages. I don't know if there are differences in how this is handled in other languages or countries.

Also, in Google, it clearly says that Maduro's assumption of office as president is 19 April, not 5 March.

Google is not a reliable source--but is useful in finding reliable sources.

I believe the 5 March date has been in the article for quite some time, so it is better to leave it as it was as long as the reliable sources do not contract it. Please see: WP:BRD.

don't change back the entire page just because of the accession date

What other changes did you make in this edit at President of Venezuela that you believe should be restored? --David Tornheim (talk) 01:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you're right. In other wikipedias (mainly the Spanish wikipedia), the date is 5 March. Also, the other changes at President of Venezuela that I made and that I believe should be restored is the space, and the image. Basically everything but the date, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 01:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I restored the new photo, see #Photo, where I discuss size. As for adding the space in the template, I don't see that as an improvement. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

IP user is correct here. The reason those American politicians don't have "acting" in the infobox is because, in the American political system (per the 25th Ammendment), a veep immediately becomes president in the event of a vacancy. But this is not the case in every country's political system, and indeed many of them only allow a person to ascend to "acting" or "interim" presidency, with the full title reserved for those who were elected. For example, Vladimir Putin, Francesco Cossiga, Ranil Wickremesinghe, Ghulam Ishaq Khan all make note of their periods of "acting president" within their overall term in office. I don't see why Maduro should be an exception. — Kawnhr (talk) 18:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)