Talk:Nieuport 12

"Role" of this aircraft

For the record - the "role markers" in French type designations at this time were as follows:

A – General purpose/reconnaissance, B – Bomber, C – Fighter (chasse, lit. Hunter)

The number after the letter referred to the number of seats –

Thus C.1 = single seat fighter, A.2 = two seat reconnaissance

The original derivation for the "A" might have been Artillerie (or whatever the French is) but all A.2 aircraft in French service 1914-1918 were in fact two seat general purpose aircraft, and normally included aerial photography, contact patrol, general reconnaissance, and even tactical bombing in their repertoire as well as artillery spotting. The lighter, faster ones were also used, at least occasionally, as fighters, although dedicated two seat fighters would of course fall into the C.2 class.

If we put every purpose for which an aircraft type was used against its role then this would get ridiculous. Since all types tended to be relegated to the training schools (among other second line roles) as they became obsolete – with very few indeed being actually designed as trainers (the only exception to this I can think of off-hand is the D.H.6!) then adding trainer to the role of every aircraft ever used as a trainer would also mean adding it to practically every article about a WWI aircraft.

May I submit, with all due respect and reverence, that in view of the above the role entry for the Nieuport 12A.2 was perfectly satisfactory, and well in tune with other articles, before it got changed from Fighter/reconnaissance, and that if this humble old editor chooses to revert it back to that he just might conceivably be correct? If you insist we might be able to live with "Fighter/general purpose", but in the RFC, especially, the "12" was classed as a fighter that was also used for reconnaissance or as a reconnaissance aircraft that could also look after itself if attacked (like the F.E.2b or the 1½ strutter). These types are quite often called "fighter/reconnaissance" types. Since the RFC was quite a significant user of the "12"?? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:36, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

A = Artillerie as per pretty much every authoritative source I have ever seen. Call it what you want however this is like describing a Westland Lysander as an "observation aircraft" instead of as an "army co-operation aircraft" - the role is the similar but the name is not, and to use some other countries designation system is unnecessarily POV. The French had their own designation system and regardless of preferences, it isn't correct. This was a French aircraft and the Brits were relatively minor users - both the Russians and French operated far more than the Brits for longer and in more roles. It only appears otherwise since most of the sources in English exaggerate RFC use. Yes initially it may have been seen as a two seat fighter (as the 10 had been) - but that didn't last long before advances in German fighters ended that idea. Single examples were operated by fighter squadrons as hacks and not as fighters. OTOH The 12bis was classed as a fighter (even if again it was rarely treated as such) and the full designation was 12bis C.2 (ie chasseur) - but the standard 12 was either 12 A.2 (artillerie) or 12 E.2 (ecole). "Widely" would not be an adjective I would find any support for when it comes to its use as a fighter.

Unlike aircraft relegated to training, the Nieuport 12 was built in large number specifically for training, including modifications to the controls (so it could be flown from the rear cockpit), to the structure (numerous components were simplified) and the removal of the gun ring - and it wasn't just the 80/81 but the tail end of the 12 production was ordered for use by training units. Many companies better known postwar got their start building Nieuport 12 trainers. If the Avro 504 is listed as a trainer (it is in the infobox) then the Nieuport 12 should be. Like the Curtiss Jenny/Canuck and the Avro 504, the Nieuport 12 was used for barnstorming and civil flight training post-war.NiD.29 (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Pretty sure that the "A" stood for "Armée" - in modern terms something like "army cooperation" - which fairly describes the role of the majority of WWI two seater aircraft, as I said. The main point is that every "ordinary" two seater, that is any not specifically devoted to bombing or fighter duties, was an "A.2". Aircraft BUILT as trainers were classed as "E" (for École="School"). As a matter of interest, did the advanced trainer Nieuports - de-armed and with lower powered engines, shed their "C" classification for "E"? Can't think off-hand, and I'm in too lazy a mood to look it up. IN ANY CASE every French warplane of the period used for reconnaissance was an "A.2" - from the humble Sopwith 1 A.2 to the Dorand AR 2 A.2, the Salmson 2 A.2, and even the Breguet 14 A.2 (the reconnaissance version of the famous bomber). On the other hand, as the Nieuport 14 E.2 (the purpose built trainer) IS included in this article we might stretch to "Fighter / General purpose / Trainer" OK? Just that if we mentioned "Artillery spotting" we'd have to mention every other specialised army cooperation task as well - and do this for every A.2 class aircraft (not to mention their British, German etc equivalents). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

The 10, 12 and 80/81/82/83 all definitely used the E.2 designation (I have seen original correspondence that used them), while I am unsure about the scouts in French service, but the USAS (which at that time generally mimicked french usage) used the E.1 designation with those. The single seaters were not (aside from possibly the 21 which had been intended as a long range escort) built as trainers afaik. The 14 E.2 shouldn't be here (though I have only seen the 82 E.2 designation and not 14 E.2 used - the latter may have been a short term thing) as it is an entirely different and unrelated aircraft, much larger all around, 2 bay wings etc. The 13 should be included here (it was a 12 with a wider center section and longer lower wings, with an option for either rotary or hisso, and served as a prelude to the 14) but documentation on it is scarce and I have no idea what type designation it had - if any. "Armée" is a new one on me and I've been researching Nieuports for close to 20 years - afaik Artillerie is just a generic description like Observation is for US types - it doesn't by any means cover all of the tasks that the particular types would carry out and is really a catch all for anything that isn't a fighter, bomber, trainer or transport. Check out - Davilla, Dr. James J. and Arthur Soltan. French Aircraft of the First World War, Flying Machines Press, Mountain View California, 1997, ISBN 0-9637110-4-0 - it is the definitive book on the subject. Reconnaissance(Artillery)/Fighter/Trainer is fine.NiD.29 (talk) 08:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)