Talk:Nigerien crisis (2023–2024)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Why I made this page

I've noticed that the information regarding ECOWAS' threat of military intervention in Niger is written in the 2023 Nigerien coup d'état article. I believe that they should be separate, the article regarding the coup should ONLY consist of the coup, and later events (especially if there is an actual possible chance of the situation turning into a full scale invasion) should be placed in a completely separate article. Examples of these are Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine having an article of its own, and not a part of Russian invasion of Ukraine. Or ECOWAS military intervention in the Gambia having it's own page, instead of the invasion being a paragraph in Yahya Jammeh or 2016–2017 Gambian constitutional crisis. U2You Too (talk) 13:37, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your intentions but I do wish you discussed it first in the mother talk page for the sake of consensus. Regardless I leave it to other users if they will revert this, as was done with your mass removal in the mother article. In the meantime, I will continue updating on both pages. Borgenland (talk) 17:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

We should try to find pictures as well as keep the map.

Hi I think we should try to find pictures of the crisis that could be put under the map this is just my idea if you don’t it’s fine by me. HuntersHistory (talk) 02:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Flags

Would it not be better to remove the coat of arms and just add the Niger flags?, 2001:56A:F4D2:FD00:9151:F379:1AFC:E4A3 (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect labelling in the map

I think the legend in the map is very misleading: "Niger", "Supports Niger", "Opposes Niger": actually all the governments or regimes of ECOWAS countries claim to support "Niger", even if in different ways. It should be "Niger", "Supports Niger's military coup", "Supports Niger's elected President". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.48.223.189 (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the Jihadists should be added as a third party.

Hi I am going to add the Jihadists back but I want explain way, most of the video I have watch on YouTube in the past couple of days brings up the Jihadists and includes them as one of the reasons the coup happened even if it not directly stated, but most video bring up the Jihadists and there fight against the government not only that but I seen articles talk about the Jihadists and as a final argument my idea has been thanked for my edit, also the Jihadists have been involved in Niger and the corresponding regions for a long time and if intervention does happen they will most likely get involved. HuntersHistory (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I will add some articles and videos to back me up.@[1]https://roanoke.com/news/nation-world/niger-coup-former-jihadi-warning/image_ba6cd53b-9c92-5bfb-99ae-f3c46ab5ccb2.html

https://s/www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66322914.amp

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7x5qk9BZPo&pp=ygUabmlnZXJpZW4gY3Jpc2lzIGV4cGxhaW5lZCA%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PrEkxALwhsU

This should help to understand why I included them as a third party hopefully the links work. HuntersHistory (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

An article came out a couple of days ago about an attack near Niger by Jihadists againist Mali troops heading to Niger. HuntersHistory (talk) 21:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Jihadists have been fighting for years against these states in Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Nigeria and other states. But they have done absolutely nothing to involve themselves in this coup in Niger, because the coup in Niger is more then just "for better army to fight jihadists" It has way more reasons then that. And as for now Jihadists have not done ANYTHING particular to involve themselves in the Crisis. Wakapoodiaaaa24234 (talk) 04:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand what you're trying to convey, but I believe this article should purely consist of the events that happened in the aftermath of the coup, the possible military intervention, or if the situation does get fixed diplomatically. The jihadists are not a main belligerent as they did not instigate the coup nor are they opposing it. If you want to label jihadist attacks against pro-coup/anti-coup forces, you may do that in the Islamist insurgency in the Sahel article instead of here. U2You Too (talk) 09:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The jihadisds are clashing with Malian and Wagner troops according to reports. If this is confirmed, perhaps we can add the jihadists on the right side of the belligerents on a separate line to divide them from the anti-coup forces? If there are casualties then it should be under the pro-coup losses section as well U2You Too (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes Malian troops were attack by isis and there was a report that Wagner forces were being besieged by Al-Queda but that was reported on Twitter and there wasn't any articles about, I had the same idea of putting next to the ain't coup forces but I didn't think of how to do the lostest, Alot of people here don't think the Jihadists are apart of the crisis while some believe they should. I think there were loses the article is in one of the days with the losts sorry if this is confusing. @U2You Too HuntersHistory (talk) 00:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@U2You Too I found the article it's still on August 4.[2]https://www.africanews.com/2023/08/04/mali-soldiers-killed-in-a-jihadist-ambush-near-niger/ HuntersHistory (talk) 00:18, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@U2You Too hey I pretty sure you are the creator of this article I have a problem I am not able to talk or edit on my iPad which I used most often would you know why as I replied to your response. HuntersHistory (talk) 01:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@U2You Toonevermind I fixed it but I did respond to your response. HuntersHistory (talk) 01:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I also found out that around 20 people died in the ambush so I will include them under pro coup section like you said. @U2You Too HuntersHistory (talk) 02:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Looked up info on Wagner could not find any verifiable proof but like I said there was an ambush of Malian troops with at least 20 dead, missing, or wounded. HuntersHistory (talk) 02:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@U2You Toowith this evidence should we add them or not because I really don’t know anymore. HuntersHistory (talk) 04:12, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Borgenland: and @Applodion: — Preceding unsigned comment added by HuntersHistory (talk • contribs) 21:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Joaquinazo HuntersHistory (talk) 05:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Joaquinazo HuntersHistory (talk) 05:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that why they should be added as a third party but not directly involved in the coup. HuntersHistory (talk) 05:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

At this rate I don’t believe jihadists have anything to do with the actual crisis yet. And why am I being tagged in statements for this argument??? Borgenland (talk) 05:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents

Shouldn't we include all 11 member states of ECOWAS? This page is about the crisis and not the military intervention in which as of now, only 4 nations have declared its intentions to participate. Perhaps we can place a note stating that in order to not cause confusion U2You Too (talk) 09:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Probably not all ECOWAS members considering not all of its members are involved Brek1234567 (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

ECOWAS summit to be held in a few days, perhaps we can see there the stances of each member states and base our belligerents on that? U2You Too (talk) 11:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Should biafran seperaists be added into the belligerents?

considering that Simon ekpa has declared support for Niger and Even threatened deploying its own troops should it be added?https://dailypost.ng/2023/08/07/coup-biafra-will-back-you-if-nigerian-military-intervenes-simon-ekpa-assures-niger-mali/?amp=1 Brek1234567 (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The question is does he even have an army or even a butterknife for that matter? Borgenland (talk) 14:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Considering that he represents a self-proclaimed government in exile that many members of the public only heard of probably today if not last in 1970 Borgenland (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

actually they knew him since January

Also he does have militants under his command as seen in the 2 week sit at home Brek1234567 (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, still need a decent number though Borgenland (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Probably Brek1234567 (talk) 16:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Though it's unknown Brek1234567 (talk) 16:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

As someone who is updating the insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria article from time to time, I can say the following: Yes, Ekpa does have armed followers. However, these are not many, and the likelihood of them becoming involved in this crisis is slim. Despite being a rebel leader and (self-proclaimed) exile government leader, Ekpa is mainly a propagandist and he often voices support for one group/state or another. Unless his forces actually become active in this crisis, they should not be included. Applodion (talk) 20:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Or you can just add diplomatic support for now as the only time you have seen him using militants was during the 2 week sit at home crisis Brek1234567 (talk) 04:44, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure about diplomatic support though. It makes it look as if he’s holding a decent piece of territory when he doesn’t. Borgenland (talk) 05:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

So then what? Brek1234567 (talk) 06:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

We exclude them until they are shown to be actually involved. Applodion (talk) 08:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

People keep on adding Biafra even though we already discussed this in the talks. HuntersHistory (talk) 02:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

you can't get diplomatic support from non-state actors. Scu ba (talk) 23:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Who keeps adding Biafra?

2 people I've seen keep using biafra Brek1234567 (talk) 09:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

One was an IP address who openly said they didn’t care whether it was true or not. We had that blocked and unfortunately one of the users also got warned for 3RR even if it was for reversing bad edits Borgenland (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Someone just added back Biafra. HuntersHistory (talk) 02:11, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Someone should add this

https://www.vanguardngr.com/2023/08/au-un-ecowas-delegation-head-to-niger-for-talks-reports/ Brek1234567 (talk) 13:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

we would add it but there are reports that the delegation was blocked. HuntersHistory (talk) 01:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Brek1234567 HuntersHistory (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

sorry for some reason I am not able to reply of talk on my iPad. HuntersHistory (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@U2 You Too hey I pretty sure you are the creator of this article I have a problem I am not able to talk or edit on my iPad which I used most often would you know why as I replied to your response. HuntersHistory (talk) 01:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh ok Brek1234567 (talk) 07:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Missing ECOWAS member

The infobox map omits the fifteenth member of ECOWAS, Cape Verde. This seems unintentional. All other member states are accounted for, including those that have not declared any intention to participate in a military intervention. Moreover, the map is titled 'ECOWAS Political Situation'. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Someone should make a wiki for the Council of Resistance for the Republic.

Someone should make a wiki for the Council of Resistance for the Republic. HuntersHistory (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Stop adding Biafra!

I don’t know who keeps on doing in but stop we have already discussed this is the talks please tell me who’s doing it, it is unclear weather or not they will provide military or political support and it is unclear weather or not there involved would we lead to anything or how big there army would be please stop this is a rant. HuntersHistory (talk) 05:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Please tell me who is doing it. HuntersHistory (talk) 05:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

They added the indigenous people of Biafra by some logged in account maybe because they supported the coup politically and thought they would send in their troops military Brek1234567 (talk) 05:13, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The Biafra crisis is a totally separate issue, any crossover between the two events does not mean the two are interlinked. If IPOB, a non-state actor, pledges their support to Niger and resurrects their low level insurgency, then it would still be a minor footnote of this crisis, and should live on the Nigerian insurgency's article. That being said, the only connection between IPOB and Niger, is their exiled leader/spokesman in London has voiced support to Niger due to the anti-Nigeria nature of doing so. Unless the Niger junta starts waving Biafra flags and IPOB militants either are present in the country or coordinating with officials in the country, they should remain omitted from this article. Scu ba (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Biafra is supporting the coup people

Biafra is supporting the coup people they have been very clear, I don’t know why you are all removing Biafra. 194.5.53.153 (talk) 05:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

just add they support the coup politically and not military also remember to put the indigenous peoples of Biafra as Biafra is a state Brek1234567 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• is not a state in the regular sense Borgenland (talk) 05:57, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thought it was Brek1234567 (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes but other wiki boxes include non state actos as well so shouldn’t it be added? HowardMartinParis (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  The problem is that so-called government-in-exile of Biafra does not appear to be the sole representative of the entire Biafran entity. Borgenland (talk) 06:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Actually Simon ekpa is actually the spokesperson for biafra Brek1234567 (talk) 06:11, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  To reiterate. I suggest not to put the word Biafra alone but rather the political movement (IPOB) itself. Borgenland (talk) 06:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  ye that's what they did before it was removed Brek1234567 (talk) 06:18, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  For reference, these are the Biafran units fighting today in Nigeria based on the Insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria article:

  Indigenous People of Biafra (IPOB)

  Biafra Nations League (BNL)

  Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE)

  Biafran National Guard (BNG) / Biafran Supreme Military Council of Administration

  Borgenland (talk) 06:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  So should it be either Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE) or the indigenous peoples of Biafra Brek1234567 (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Could you consult the source again and see what unit Ekpa belonged to? Borgenland (talk) 06:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Here

  https://saharareporters.com/2021/07/09/finland-based-nigerian-finnish-citizen-simon-ekpa-takes-over-nnamdi-kanu-radio-biafra

  Note that radio Biafra is part of ipob Brek1234567 (talk) 06:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'll also bring another source Brek1234567 (talk) 06:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Another one https://dailytrust.com/fact-check-did-finnish-govt-threaten-to-arrest-ipob-spokesman/ Brek1234567 (talk) 06:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  According to the sources it says that Simon ekpa is a spokesman for indigenous peoples of Biafra but also the leader for Biafra government in exile Brek1234567 (talk) 06:44, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  If the Biafra government in exile is written in small caps I'd assume its not the BRGIE. So I believe IPOB is more appropriate. Borgenland (talk) 07:15, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Ok then Brek1234567 (talk) 07:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Didn't we already talk about this like four times and each time we said we would wait. HuntersHistory (talk) 14:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Unfortunately there were repeated disputes so as a compromise it was decided not to use the name of a defunct state and use the political group’’s name instead. Borgenland (talk) 15:14, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Okay HuntersHistory (talk) 18:52, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

This is still incorrect. No Biafran forces have actually become involved in this conflict. Furthermore, Ekpa does not even have the support of IPOB; he leads one of many splinter groups. Applodion (talk) 10:32, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry but ur reading articles wrong the only person who's has actively denounced Simon ekpa is Emma Powerful not Nnamdi Kanu. Also Simon ekpa is pretty much the current leader and spokesperson for IPOB Brek1234567 (talk) 13:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not reading the articles wrong, Kanu literally called Ekpa's actions "treasonous to his quest for Biafran statehood". Ekpa has also openly threatened other IPOB leaders, causing the Kanu family to describe him as having "gone mad". Not exactly signs that he is generally supported by IPOB members. Applodion (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

A lawyer is not a member of ipob Brek1234567 (talk) 14:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Again the brother of the family is not an IPOB member??? Brek1234567 (talk) 15:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? As the articles explain, Kanu ordered his lawyer to release a statement denouncing Ekpa. Later, Ekpa threatened an IPOB member, causing Kanu's family to call him mad. It's literally stated in the articles. Applodion (talk) 22:30, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Russia

For the record, Russia has not so far recognized the junta as the legitimate government of Niger but has not supported a military intervention either for Bazoum. Unfortunately, whether Wagner's contradictory statements are equivalent to that of the Kremlin is no longer clear ever since the Wagner Group rebellion occurred. Borgenland (talk) 06:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yet it is obvious they have been supporting, didn’t they warn the ECOWAS against intervention in Niger? Why don’t we atleast put “supporting” in the info box? 194.5.53.148 (talk) 06:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Being against the military intervention doesn't mean they automatically support the junta. Italy, Algeria have also made similar statements yet we do not consider them as supporting the junta in any way. Let's wait for more official statements from the kremlin, for now it looks like they only want to see the status quo remain, and are not in support of the junta in any way. U2You Too (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly Brek1234567 (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Italy and Algeria also opposed an intervention yet it does not mean they support the junta. Borgenland (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

At the very least, Russia is a fence-sitter Borgenland (talk) 06:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image suggestion

2023_Nigerien_Crisis_Reactions_in_Africa

I feel like the image in the infobox should be something close to this, It shows the difference between political and military support which makes it more precise and specific. Perhaps someone can make an ECOWAS version, since this one is for the entire continent? U2You Too (talk) 07:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

To be honest I actually prefer this one Brek1234567 (talk) 07:45, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

maybe also some other shade of green to denote members of ECOWAS that haven't pledged military support Scu ba (talk) 23:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I would also make it clear that the majority of Africa is colored due to membership in the African Union rather than individual political declaration. If you are going to represent all of the African Union like this, then representing the entire UN would technically be just as accurate. GigaDerp (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Rename the page to the Nigerien Crisis

There hasnt been anything like this before. Maybe the West African Crisis works too. Lukt64 (talk) 04:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

yes there has

Go search it up Brek1234567 (talk) 06:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

See the: 2009–2010 Nigerien constitutional crisis Scu ba (talk) 23:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe others have cited to similar events like what is happening in Nigeria now. I am interested in hearing your input to see if we are missing something or if there is a specific point that you are alluding to that we may be overlooking. Jurisdicta (talk) 02:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Cape Verde anti-intervention source?

Why is it just accepted that Cape Verde is against an intervention. All references to this are uncited and I can't find anything about the Cape Verde government opposing military action. Where are people getting this from? Scu ba (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it weird they don’t include it on the map since it’s a map of Ecowas situation but about your question I don’t know the answer. HuntersHistory (talk) 00:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It was badly cited. Someone initially used France24’s homepage. Borgenland (talk) 00:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Then maybe this was the source they where trying to cite [3] Scu ba (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Update Map

Due to information from this article, the map needs to be updated. All countries have pledged military support, with the exceptions of Cape Verde, Burkina Faso, and Mali. The map needs to be adjusted accordingly. Some Hecking Nerd (talk) 03:53, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we can contact the creator of the map for an update, as well as asking him if the new map could include Cape Verde U2You Too (talk) 07:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Could anyone please put a green ring around Cape Verde? I can barely see the dot-looking archipelago/ Borgenland (talk) 03:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Germany

Germany has vocally supported EU sanctions against the junta and is one of the 3 countries alongside the United States and France to suspend aid in the aftermath of the coup. Should they be added as a supporting belligerent on the side of anti-junta forces? U2You Too (talk) 18:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I added them but was shot down forgot the reasons @U2You Too HuntersHistory (talk) 00:15, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I would personally add them back though. HuntersHistory (talk) 00:15, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it was due to lack of military support Borgenland (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay 2601:547:1200:A6B0:25B1:F1D8:4C61:92C0 (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Liberian Neutrality

Is there a source that Liberia is not contributing troops? Every article I've seen states that only Cape Verde is the exception. Some Hecking Nerd (talk) 19:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I really don’t understand that as well. HuntersHistory (talk) 03:49, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppositions section

Wouldn't it be appropriate if we add "Oppositions" section? I think it's appropriate to arrange those countries/parties or groups that are in opposition to ECOWAS's military intervention in one section. What do you guys think? FocusedDeal (talk) 20:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

That would involve a horrendous flag soup though and involve an unnecessary third column that would confuse readers who might think it is a 3-way fight. Borgenland (talk) 23:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Not that infobox would be created for it but a section under "Impact" section. FocusedDeal (talk) 00:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Probably a reactions section. We do need to separate press releases from the timeline to save that for actual action. Borgenland (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I found a cool map of the crisis

[4]https://m.youtube.com/@VologdaMapping/videos It's a cool map on the vologda mapping community tab on YouTube there are some error but it is cool. HuntersHistory (talk) 00:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

How do we screenshot the exact map? It's a kind of complicated. FocusedDeal (talk) 00:52, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@FocusedDeal

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/2023_Nigerien_Crisis_map.png HuntersHistory (talk) 01:19, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@FocusedDeal I really don’t know but I left a link to the map. HuntersHistory (talk) 03:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)