Talk:Night owl

Wikipedia or Wiktionary

Something to ponder: Does this page belong in wikpedia or wiktionary? --Bachrach44 06:07, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• I would say Wikipedia. It is a term used to describe a medical condition, hence can be expanded. - Eagle^(talk) 06:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, it's more like state than a condition. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 07:35, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Merge?

Has anyone considered merging this with either Sleep_disorders or Insomnia?--172.153.7.119 12:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It really is a different case, but I guess that is feasible, especially after taking into consideration how badly this article is written - Eagle^(talk) 19:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

If anything, it should be merged with delayed sleep phase syndrome. I've added an internal link. However, I think it should be improved rather than merged, as not all night owls have DSPS. DSPS is a persistent and difficult-to-treat sleep disorder. Kla'quot 05:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"… not all night owls have DSPS…" I'm not sure about this. I've heard people say that it's a personal choice for them. But they may not realize that they've chosen the life of a night owl because they have DSPS, which they may have never even heard of. This creates some confusion. (I was over 60 when I finally heard of it.) People who don't have DSPS are unlikely to see themselves as night owls. And since night owls often claim it's their choice, this can create the false impression that it's a something other than a DSPS. MiguelMunoz (talk) 19:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

IMO "Night Owl" should not be merged with DSPS as mentioned above and should also not be merged with insomnia nor with "sleep disorders", as that isn't what it is. As I understand it, researchers consider morningness/eveningness (early bird/night owl) to be within the normal range of "diurnal preferences" as they're called, while ASPS and DSPS clearly are disorders. The suggestion above to put "Night Owl" in the dictionary is a good one. Hordaland 19:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

My sleep doctor told me that DSPD is not a threat to a healthy life. But as I understand it, researchers don't actually consider it to be in the normal range, although some researchers may be saying something like that to emphasize the point that there's nothing unhealthy about it. (This is why I prefer to call it a "syndrome" rather than a "disorder.") I'm not sure if this article should be merged with the DSPD article, because I'm not sure if some people use the term "night owl" to describe insomniacs, which is a separate issue. But this page should certainly mention DSPD in the introduction.

Just removed this

"Also known to have a penchant for the arts, smoking cigarettes, and most night owls have also been classified as a Type B personality." This sounds like it may be original research. Does anyone have a source for it? Kla'quot 03:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

playing pinball all night in the governor's mansion

Removed ref.

In a very long article in TIME, mostly about his wife (title: The Better Half), it is mentioned in passing that Bill Clinton was criticized for this. He may be a "night owl", but this isn't a sufficient source for that. --Hordaland (talk) 22:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing 'Natteravnene'

Night Owls - parent group
The organization "Night Owls" (Natteravnene) is a volutary group of parents walking the streets in the Nordic countries observing youth partying . While underage drinking isn't recommended culture - especially in Denmark - allows the youth to drink with parental supervision and there in only restriction on alcohol purchase - not consuming. See Legal drinking age.

_ _ _ _

I'm going to remove the above section from the article because:

• It has no relation to the topic of the article.
• Though the info is true, it is very poorly referenced. (Countless Scandinavian newspaper articles [and possibly some elsewhere?] have been written about this movement.)
• The title isn't good, as it is not true that the movement is made up of just parents. Teachers and other concerned adults also volunteer.

The topic is interesting and, properly written and sourced, it may warrant it's own article on English Wikipedia. Norwegian (bokmål) Wikipedia has an article on it; in that country the movement (organization) was founded in 1990, based on the Nattuglorna movement in Karlstad in Sweden. (I haven't found any article on the movement in the Norwegian (nynorsk), Swedish or Danish Wikipedias.)

Perhaps there is some other existing article in English where this material would fit nicely? --Hordaland (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We could make a new article about it as the idea is spreading down through Europe. As for additional sources I have found:

• Last-minute save of the Night Owls, Red Barnet press release
• Rapid Appraisal on Alcohol consumption, drinking behaviour and related problems in Copenhagen, report by Vibeke Asmussen & Sébastien Tutenges With contributions by Karen Elmeland, Mads Uffe Pedersen, Charlotte Siiger, and Leif Vind.

What makes the movement so special is that they dont judge the behavior or alcohol consumption of the youth. They are only out there to secure safe streets for the youth, because they are aware of the Danish involvement in the 11. crusade known other places as the "War against terrorism". It is a crash of cultures where the drinkers are the youth who grow up and don't become suicide bombers but productive members of the society. Covergaard (talk) 11:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how old the movement is in Denmark, but in the rest of Scandinavia it predates anything called the "War on Terror" by a decade or more. In Norway at least, it functions not only in the cities, but also in smaller and homogeneous communities. It is very worthy, and I think it's remarkable that it continues after the initial "Hey, that's a good idea"-enthusiasm died down. Almost 20 years now! --Hordaland (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, 'Natteravnene' in Norwegian translates to "The Night Ravens". Not owls. --Hordaland (talk) 19:48, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

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Image removed...Modernist (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Owls are awake at night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.192.81 (talk) 13:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Delayed sleep phase syndrome

Link appears in "Origins" section, should it also appear in See Also, where I put it originally, or not? Jacobisq (talk) 10:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

no need for both - either one or the other. The way it is now is probably best as link is in context.--Penbat (talk) 14:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

'John Paul Gibney'

User:Dannibaby284 has twice added the following sentence just before a ref about Denmark (not UK).

• "In the United Kingdom they are often referred to as 'John Paul Gibney'."

If this is true and belongs in the article, it needs a reference. --Hordaland (talk) 20:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

insomnia and Delayed sleep phase disorder

i think there should be some kind of reference to both insomnia and Delayed sleep phase disorder, and explain that they are not the same thing.zeroro(talk)(edits) 19:27, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder does appear in the article. I can't see a natural way to introduce Insomnia there. --Hordaland (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

remove a line

I removed the line "People who stay up late may generally be more intelligent than others, because staying up late is considered evolutionarily novel," because it was utter nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.61.250.208 (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Those of us with circadian rhythm disorders have joked about that claim on many a forum. --Hordaland (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Vaya Con Dios album

Seeing as this is where "Night Owls" redirects to, should there be a link to the Vaya Con Dios Album "Night Owls" at the top? I'd add it myself but I don't know the markup and don't know if it should go here on on the redirect page. Cafeeine (talk) 05:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

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Thank you! I'm glad you found this 1997 article for us. --Hordaland (talk) 05:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Type A and B

Is there any connection between Type A and B sleeping pattern, and Type A and B personality? I know Kla'quot pointed out an WP:OR issue about this above, but is there any connection between them? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 07:42, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Judgment in term "normal"

I propose to have the sentence "Night owls who are involuntarily unable to fall asleep for several hours after a normal time may have delayed sleep phase disorder." changed into:

"Night owls who are involuntarily unable to fall asleep for several hours after a desired time may have delayed sleep phase disorder."

or into something else that does away with the judgment. I can see no reason for applying a norm here.Redav (talk) 10:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

There used to be an evolutionary benefit for being a night owl

I am an inveterate night person, when the sun goes down I wake up and become fully alert, when the sun comes up, I can't stay awake. I've been this way since just before puberty. I pondered why there are people who have this trait, which in a modern context is supremely detrimental for doing things, like going to college, and otherwise fitting into the rest of the world that pretty much operates from sunup to sundown. Alright, way back when, who stayed up all night guarding the flocks of sheep from leopards and jackals? Who stayed up all night watching and listening for marauders coming to steal the horses, cows, and young virgin girls in your village? Who were the marauders who stayed up all night to sac and pillage another far away village that had what your village didn't have to make it through the winter? For whoever was guarding a flock of sheep through a long night, if that person did not have the innate ability to be fully alert and awake, the sheep were doomed from a dozing night guard when the jackals quietly came, or the even quieter leopard came. Under pain of death by firing squad, night pickets on guard duty in wartime STILL fell asleep anyway, and were shot to death for doing so. So, the threat of death, along with actually witnessing someone dying as the result of falling asleep at night when warned not to do so, is not enough to keep a "day-lark" person from falling asleep at night. Therefore, it was a beneficial genetically-controlled trait for some members of a tribe to have a 180-degree out of phase sleep pattern so there were night guards to protect everyone else. I wonder if anyone ever asked Jane Goodall if Chimpanzees have night owls, too. Maybe she never stayed up that late to find out? Linstrum (talk) 07:03, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Implied Clinical Bias towards Night Owls

This article begins with a bias right in the opening paragraphs, stating "Night owls who are involuntarily unable to fall asleep for several hours after a normal time may have delayed sleep phase disorder." From there, it runs through the other sections.

Doesn't it occur to anyone that there are many people that consider themselves "night owls" simply by good nature or many other circumstances, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, or to begin this discussion by calling it a "disorder".

Many people take jobs that keep them up late and into early morning, and perhaps deviated from the mainstream schedule of the population. Think of people in foodservice, security and policing, fire departments, hospitals, and many other services in modern society and living. Nowadays, even television and media is running 24/7. Grocery stores are being stocked at late night. So, who we think does this work? These are not crazy, deranged people with disorders.

There are also lots of writers, artists, intellectuals, and creative types that like either being early birds or night owls, whereas they take "unconventional" schedules that give them creative space from the crowd.

What matters is that people get their allocation of sleep (eight hours, per se), as well as a time for work (another eight hours), and another eight hours of discretionary time for mealtimes, recreation, creativity, travel, errands, etc. However people decide to place those blocks of time is their own choice. In the modern world, whichever way we flip-flop these blocks for work, sleep, and other discretions can determine if we self-identify as a "night owl", but that doesn't necessarily make it clinical, or a disorder of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.35.17.4 (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

---

Night owl (person) → Night owl – My primary reason is that this is currently the only topic on Wikipedia that uses "Night owl", as all the entries on Night Owl show (all others are proper nouns with both words capitalised). Basically, the spelling variant indicates a separate topic (WP:DIFFCAPS policy), which renders the "(person)" in the current title unnecessary for disambiguation (WP:CONCISE policy).

Note that Night owl (the suggested new name) currently redirects to Night Owl (a disambiguation page). Xurizuri (talk) 01:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Please ping me if you need/would like my response, I may forget to check back. --Xurizuri (talk) 01:58, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose - Wikipedia really doesn't distinguish between common capitalized words. My guess is that for this item "night owl" would be typed in for most of the search topics. I guess I also tend to think of the Carly Simon song Night Owl and the Little River Band song Night Owls... but then again I'm older. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Yeah look I've never heard of those... Regardless, Night owl (person) is currently the most viewed page with the name "night owl" (including variant spellings)[1]. It's also the most common outgoing pageview for the dab page[2]. --Xurizuri (talk) 01:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
    • I get you. It needs to be the most viewed over all other "night owl" topics combined to be considered the primary topic. Maybe it is, I didn't look. I thought there was doubt but maybe others can change my mind. Like I said I'm old and for all I know the Night Owl is also a place Harry Potter buys his dress robes. :-) Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support - First, per WP:DIFFCAPS. Second, the question of the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: I haven't done the exact calculations, but at a brief look at the outgoing pageviews, "night owl (person)" seems likely to have more pageviews than the sum of all other articles titled "Night Owl" specifically, only falling behind when "Night Owls" or "Nite Owl" titles are added to the sum. Then there's the question of primary-topic status by long-term significance, which in my opinion favors "night owl (person)" as well. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Showiecz (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:DIFFCAPS. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.