Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 13

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Tesla was Serbian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Just to clarify already known fact, born in a Serb family, both of his parents were Serbs, it is more than a valid argument — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.169.242 (talk) 07:40, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

There are actually no primary sources on this.141.136.242.229 (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Well here is one -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla ,eventough for you is difficult to embrace the truth — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.169.242 (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a primary source. 89.164.165.95 (talk) 21:40, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

But the article was written based on sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.69.95 (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Do you know what a primary source is? There are none on this matter. 89.164.132.208 (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Do you know how articles on wikipedia are written? Instead of constant attempts to change an article under different nicknames (vandalise them without a real source), you need to provide a source first , there is more than enough on this matter primary and secondary plus it is a known fact ,that is why the article is written the way it is

I say no primary sources, you say plenty...can I suggest you put one of your plenty forward? 89.164.132.208 (talk) 16:52, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

His birth certifikate (baptism certificate) is also qouted in the article, it is quite easy to find — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.63.166 (talk) 17:09, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

It says nothing about ethnicity. 141.136.252.138 (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

It does , the other authors that are mentioned in article confirm that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.63.166 (talk) 20:03, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

So, I say it doesn't, you say it does...can I suggest you put forward the quote? 141.136.252.138 (talk) 20:43, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

If you mean the qoute of Tesla on being Serbian , here it is : https://www.pinterest.com/pin/534098837029672758/ if you mean the qoute of authors just click on the ones already mentioned in the article ,like O Neill who are very detailed about his origin and ethnicity — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.63.166 (talk) 20:56, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

That's not a primary source. 141.136.252.138 (talk) 22:15, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

You asked for qoutes, primary sources were already presented,anyways it is more than clear that he was Serbian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.63.166 (talk) 22:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I just stated a fact that there are no primary sources on this matter. 141.136.252.138 (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

And I presented otherwise, there are some other primary sources that can be shown like the list of his relatives but since the article does not mention it . maybe it is better not to reveal it because of the context , so if you want to push this discussion further just to prove that there are no primary sources I got no problem with it eventhough those are also easy to find — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.63.166 (talk) 23:14, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

No you haven't. That was not a primary source. 89.164.187.32 (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing, send a message to the editors ,see if they care about your opinion, oh wait :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.38.131 (talk) 19:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

That's not subjected to opinion, it's a state of fact. 89.164.187.32 (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

There is plenty of primary and secondary sources saying that Tesla was a Serb and that his family on both sides was Serbian. He was even a Serb patriot. That is common knowledge. Please stop abusing Wiki space for nearly pointless forum-like discussions. cheers Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Sadko I think that you are aware that this guy is behind all the latest attempts to change the article including that last nickname oel , I do not know what is the policy of wikipedia but I think that vandalism and trolling should be punished by blocking ,as you can see he does not contribute ,he just repeats the same thing eventhough he does not understand the basics - clearly a troll — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.38.131 (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

You repeating that there are primary sources on the matter without pointing to single one, just further proves my point.89.164.195.59 (talk) 20:31, 22 March 2020 (UTC) 89.164.195.59 (talk) 20:31, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

No the primary sources were listed to you, but it is obvious that you do not have idea what they are, like Sadko already said, there are more then enough primary and secondary sources plus common knowledge, so you have no point, you are just a troll — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.53.180 (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Not a single primary source was put forward on this matter in over 10 years of discussion, hence, 10 years of discussion.... 89.164.195.59 (talk) 22:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Really, and 2 are listed in article and I found one more in 10 min of searching in internet that lists his relatives killed in ww2 , all with names ,ethnicity etc. maybe you should read the article first before discussing it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.53.180 (talk) 22:19, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm well familiar with all the sources. There's simply no primary sources concerning Tesla's ethnicity. I don't know what more to say on this. If you have some you are free to post. 89.164.195.59 (talk) 00:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7618 here is also one not listed in article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.53.180 (talk) 07:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

You are free to include it if you find out that it has relations to the content of this article. It still won't be a source on the matter of Tesla's ethnicity. 89.164.238.155 (talk) 19:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Well at this point every source proves that his ethnicity was Serbian, which is also what is common knowledge and he said it, still you have not provide any other evidence that he is of another ethnicity, so again just proves the point that you are trying to disprove something that is obvious, Tesla was a Serbian I am sorry but you are waisting your time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.103.237 (talk) 20:44, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I know you'd really like for others to share your "common knowledge". Since there are no primary sources on this matter it will always stay ambiguous regardless of what is stated in the article. 89.164.151.200 (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Well it is not my "common knowledge" it is recognised in science , there are already lots of sources that disprove your opinion and lots of them are collected by the editors of this article and most of them are neutral regarding this matter, the others like you said are already aware of this fact, the only problem in this little story are people like you who are always trying to change the article without any sources that are proving otherwise

No, actually each and every secondary source proves my claim that there's no primary sources on the matter. List to every one of them in this article and you won't find a single one referencing a primary source next to ethnicity claim. It really isn't debatable. 89.164.151.200 (talk) 23:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

For the first time you are right in one thing - it is not debatable, 3 primary sources are showing that he and his relatives are Serbians, every secondary source confirmes it, actually every source confirms that he was Serbian, even he said it numerous times, even Croats confirmed that he was Serbian with their actions against him and his family in more than one occasion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Problem with sh

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § User Sadko problem with sh

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno^TALK 15:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

User Sadko what is your problem now?--Tuvixer (talk) 20:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I don’t agree with calling the user name out this way. But to the subject matter, it is worth noting that there is a double standard on how the birthplace and name linguistic denomination is handled here compared to Ivo Andrić. Both subjects were of ethnic orgins different than the territory they were born in. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 22:04, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no "double standard", different biographies - different facts (ethnic origin, place of birth, place of living, expressed patriotism etc.) - different approach. As you can see, I did not remove the change to SH on Ivo Andrić, because it is per facts. I do not plan to debate with editors who lack basic manners, are behaving like punks in kafana while labeling other editors and ignoring Wikipedia:Civility. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:50, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me? I did not label you personally as double standards. I made this comment before you made any edits On the Andrić page. Both have different birth place and place of living compared to ethnic roots, yet differently handled pages. (Not by you but Wiki in general). I did not insult you like you did me. How about you follow Wikipedia:Civility instead of flinging childish insults and behaving like “punks in kafana“ and labeling. That isn’t well mannered at all. You are going against Wikipedia:PERSONALATTACKS .Practice what you preach. I had told the editor above it is doesn’t seem proper form to call you out on the subject matter like this personally this way. I replied about the “sh” and “sr” subject matter. i was speaking on the subject in general between the pages. I was not targeting in speaking with you specifically. What personal drama you two have, I’m not interested in. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is talking about you, fellow editor, the plural was used in general, as my rule of thumb. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Then no worries, fellow editor. You had replied to me directly after I replied to the other editor and mentioned my topic about Ivo Andrić followed by the “punks in a cafe” line. I couldn’t tell so assumed you were including me with the other guy calling you out. As you brought up your rule of thumb in conversation with me. I probably should have made a separate entry from his to be more clear. Cheers. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity in lead

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Ethnicity in lead

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 18:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Please, @Sadko:, explain why here it states ethnicity in lead?--Sheldonium (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Why is ethnicity stated in the lead? Per Wiki guidelines ethnicity shouldn't be stated in the lead unless it is enough significant. Why it is significant for Tesla, I'm not sure. Especially when there are no primary sources on the matter, and secondary sources are all over the place. 89.164.220.108 (talk) 20:55, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Vanjagenije (talk) 15:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla is not Serbian he Was Croatian born in Smiljan(Croatia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dujeberetin (talk • contribs) 14:37, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure that is why Croats killed his family, stop spreading lies ,Tesla was Serbian and this discussion is already done — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.187.23 (talk) 21:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

He was born in Croatia. His nationality was certainly not Serbian. By ethnicity...who know's, maybe. There are really no ethnicity records from that period. Nowadays many sources list him with Serbian ethnicity, however if you look closely, none of them are providing any footnote or a primary source. Other sources list him as Croatian based on his birth country. And third group list him as American based on him obtaining american citizenship later in his life. 89.164.229.122 (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodox ---> Serbian Orthodox

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Eastern Orthodox ---> Serbian Orthodox

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 16:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I suggest that we change Eastern Orthodox to Serbian Orthodox considering that: 1) There was no other autocephalous church in the area. 2) There are several sources which clearly state that Tesla's grandparents on both sides were Serbian Orthodox priests. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• Jovan Cvijić, Serbian geographer and ethnologist in his scientific paper from 1918 talks about Serbian population. "The Zones Of Civilization Of The Balkan Peninsula by Jovan Cvijić Professor of Geography, University of Belgrade" I quote: "Mention should also be made of the islands of Catholic population to the west of the Bosna River in the midst of Greek-Orthodox and Moslemized Serb populations.", "The ethnic foundation of the patriarchal populations is the same among the Catholic Yugo-Slavs and the Greek-Orthodox Serbs", "The migrations which took place in the Turkish period have brought numerous Greek-Orthodox Serbs into Croatia and Slavonia". Austrian Historian in his work "Popis Like i Krbave 1712. godine" which deals with census of Lika( 1712) says I quote: The name "Vlach" is used in the 1712 census with two meaning, mostly is used to indicate belonging to Greek-Orthodox community. Zlatko Kudelić Croatian Historian in his work, I quote: "Vukšić stated that until 1887 (Bosnia and Herzegovina) the authorities used the name Greek-Orthodox or Eastern-Orthodox when addressing church institutions, allowing them to be called either Serbian or Orthodox, but not Serbian-Orthodox. Milorad Nikčević Croatian Historian, I quote: Official church and state terminology used the name "Greek-Eastern" or "Orthodox" for all members of the Eastern Christian Church, while in the Slavic language became known as "Orthodox", which also received the official name after the unification of all Orthodox churches in the Slavic area of the former The Habsburg or Austro-Hungarian monarchies.

These are concrete data for that time and I think that information from the article must be consistent with the time period. Regarding reliable sources and their mention of Serbian Orthodox I don't know how much it complies with wikipedia rules. We are not writing a book, we are editing wikipedia. Mikola22 (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That's an old (outdated) term, Cvijić wrote ~100 years ago. This is 2020 and there is no doubt that they were priests of the Serbian Orthodox Church - and not any other. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 14:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Sadko: This was already discussed here: Talk:Nikola_Tesla/Archive_7#Tesla's_father,_Serbian_Orthodox_priest. Did you read that discussion carefully? Vanjagenije (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I see, arguments presented make sense. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:01, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

There's no need to go again into this discussion unless no new evidences are presented that weren't discussed previously. I see no new sources. The matter is very simple. The term "Serbian Orthodox Church" is non existent in 19th century. 89.164.229.122 (talk) 18:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That is incorrect. Learn the difference between de jure and de facto. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 11:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

You are free to read the linked RfC. 89.164.165.39 (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Nikola Tesla was a Croat

Nikola Tesla after his death was heavily Serbified by the ruling Serbs from Belgrade. The higher goal of communist Yugoslavia was to create a union between nations that could survive. This was impossible as Croats and Serbs did not mix well and the first union was already a disaster. To overcome this obstacle the ruling Serbs attempted to assimilate or kill all non Serbs within Yugoslavia to elimenate the issue of a possible independence movement. If you actually look the Yugoslav authorities actually made a mistake in the first Yugoslavia. They gave Croatia autonomy and their own little "State within a state". This autonomous Croatia held only fully Croat or almost fully Croat lands within it (with the exception of muslims) and if you look you can actually see that several of the future Serb claims were inhabited by Croats in 1920. Which can only lead to ethnic genocide. (This caused the Ustasha movement to form after the assassination of Stjepan Radić being the last straw). Then the Serbs would start claiming the ethnic identity of famous Croats in this situation it was Nikola Tesla as he was world famous. A fake diary was created in order for them to have a claim upon Tesla and the region of Lika (Where Tesla was born and raised) to have proof that Serbs lived in Lika. But the autonomous Croat state from before proved otherwise. Another point is that isn't it strange that all of the Orthodox Christians within Croatia were apparent Serbs but in Slovenia they were all spread out among several peoples? (Second Yugoslavia) Why aren't all Orthodox Christians within Slovenia also Serbs? Well because the greater Serb plan for greater Serbia didn't even border Slovenia so they didn't care for creating lies about them. The truth is that Orthodox Croats have been around since Catholic Croats and people are mixing up religion and ethnicity. Why are the ancestors of those Orthodox Serbs in Croatia Croats? Wouldn't all of them also be Serbs then? Tesla's statement of being proud of his Serb heritage but loving his Croat homeland wasn't created by him but rather it was a misinterpretation of something else he said being that he "I'm a brother to the Serb people and I am proud of my Croat heritage" A mistranslation caused the statement to emerge and gain major popularity within Croatia, Serbia and the United States. And also Tesla was in Serbia in total once throughout his entire life. A total of 36 hours he'd spent in Belgrade. Many people say "If he were a Croat why was his house destroyed during the 40s and 1990s?" And this has a simple answer. During the 40s the region of Lika was in constant battle between Croats and Partisans and everything was bombed. No house was spared and nobody cared who's house it was. It was crossfire and I'd like to mention that it was most likely destroyed by Partisans as the house was held by Croats and most likely used as cover by Croats. And the same goes for the 1990s. And also any and any source of Tesla being a Serb was strictly from people unrelated to Tesla and had no proof to put forward at all. If Serbs had nothing to fear why would they not release Tesla's diary? In general, if you can combat this please reply or the change needs to be made. The page should change Serbian to Croatian as he is a Croat genetically and ethnically. Thank you. DeliriousHR (talk) 17:55, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's ethnicity is heavily debated because there are no relevant sources to confirm him being either Serb or a Croat. Records only state his nationality. Other records state other indicatives , but nothing conclusive, like his mother language to be Croatian. 151.252.244.199 (talk) 20:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2020

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2020

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Vanjagenije (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

1. Change, delete "Serbian Cyrillic: Никола Тесла;[2]" (It is not relevant, cyrillic has nothing to do with Nikola Tesla) 2. Change "Serbian-American[4][5][6] to Croatian-American" (He was not serbian, he had nothing to do with serbia. He was born and educated in Croatia, proof for this change is his passport that you can see in link https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Putovnica_Nikola_Tesla_01082.JPG Naraga55 (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Serbia is written with a higher case letter S and Serbian also in this case, please show respect towards countries or individuals in your future requests - 93 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.3.166 (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

It's describing ethnicity. He was born in the Austrian Empire. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Thjarkur People are obviously having problems with the current formulation. Maybe it would be better to write "of Serbian origin". The present formulation is also putting "American" in the first plan, neglecting that Tesla was born in Croatia which was a part of Austrian Empire in those days. 89.201.238.29 (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 Checking... I'm not opposed to removing the Serbian Cyrillic spelling, which may be original research anyway, but I'm going to let someone more familiar with it address that part of your request.

Regarding changing "Serbian American" - N Not done and not likely to be done and such a request need to be made at Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity per the notice near the top of this page. - MrX 🖋 17:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

The "passport argument" is silly on so many levels. It's not worth a comment honestly.

Serbian Cyrillic is relevant as it was his first script, which he used throughout his life. Not to mention that is the first script used by all Serbs (and many other Slavs), regardless in which region of the Balkans or the wide world they live in. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's mother language was Croatian, as stated on his diploma, so he probably didn't use Cyrillic script on regular basis. Although I would say he was familiar with it. In any case I don't see any source or relevance of this matter for this artilce. 89.201.238.29 (talk) 19:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity in lead 2

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Ethnicity in lead

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 22:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

As per MOS:ETHNICITY his ethnicity should not be mentioned in the opening paragraph as it is not relevant to the subject's notability (he was not politician, sportsman, singer, actor, etc. but an inventor) and is applied in many other articles such as Nicolaus Copernicus. Secondly, word tesla is not just Serbian, but Croatian and has the same meaning, interesting for a Wikipedia which otherwise always insists on using Serbo-Croatian, rather than just Serbian or Croatian. Please be consistent in writing Wikipedia biography articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.168.120.25 (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Do we need a RFC for this? According to MOS:ETHNICITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable."

"Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

Tesla's ethnicity and his previous nationality is not relevant for his notability. He was a citizen of the US. Tezwoo (talk) 20:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's nationality has been continuously argued on this Talk page for 13 years (the 11 huge Talk page archives are mostly about this) so I think it is "relevant to the subject's notability". Croatia and Serbia both claim Tesla as a national hero. There was an RfC 12 December 2018 on the article's nationality wording which overwhelmingly approved the current wording. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The RfC you linked was about his birthplace, in the "Early years" section. His nationality was American, while being discussed on talk pages of Wikipedia doesn't make his ethnicity notable. In fact, if you take a closer look in the archive, there was more discussion about his birthplace and citizenship than his ethnicity. Tezwoo (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)