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Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 5

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Latest comment: 9 years ago by Bob K31416 in topic Tesla's citizenship from 1867 to 1891
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Tesla's citizenship from 1867 to 1891

Latest comment: 9 years ago97 comments11 people in discussion

Moved from talk page, see contribution history for contributors. Esquivalience t 01:24, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Tesla's citizenship from 1867 to 1891 is an unresolved question. Should it be stated as Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship with local citizenship of Croatia-Slavonia. Also, should Croatian-Slavonian local citizenship from 1861 to 1867 be stated.

The purposed change is:

Citizenship:

  • Austrian national citizenship (1856 – 1867), Croatian-Slavnonian local citizenship (1861 - 1867)
  • Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship , Croatian - Slavonian local citizenship (1867 - 1891)
  • United States (30 July 1891 – 7 January 1943)

Note: this discussion is regarding Tesla's citizenship within Austrian-Empire and Austro-Hungary, not as that citizenship was viewed by United States or some other foreign country.

Asdisis (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Summoned by bot I would need to see factual proof regarding to any one of those proposed changes you had in mind. For now, I abstain from making a decision until facts are shown. Nick2crosby (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Reject unconditionally There are the facts showing that the proposer does not have a basic knowledge of the Austro-Hungarian history.
From Nationality and Statelessness in International Law by Paul Weis, BRILL, 1979 - Citizenship
Page 14. In the case of most important Real Union of recent history, the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, distinct Austrian and Hungarian nationalities existed. This distinction was recognized by other countries for reasons, it is thought, of international comity, ...
Bottom line: No Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship!
From: A Short History of Yugoslavia from Early Times to 1966 by Stephen Clissold, Henry Clifford Darby CUP Archive, 1968
Page 37: The official language of the state was recognized as Serbo-Croat. Hungary, moreover, promised to help Croatia to obtain both Dalmatia and Military Frontier Province, still under Austrian control. The latter territory, after many delays, was incorporated in Croatia in 1881, but Dalmatia remained Austrian until 1918.
Despite this 'Home Rule', the Croats never felt they had achieved adequate self-government. Their Ban was appointed by the Crown (but on the nomination of Hungarian prime minister) and he was responsible to a Hungarian Minister of Sate in the Hungarian cabinet. The Croat Sabor was represented in the Hungarian Parliament by forty members in the Lower House (out of a total of about 453), and by only three members in the Upper House (out of a total of about 400)
Bottom line: Tesla was Austrian citizen from his birth until 1881. for sure. There is no proof that incorporation of Military Frontiers into Croatia (1881), a Hungarian province, changed his citizenship (to Hungarian) administratively or by his will. When Tesla moved to the US (1884.), he was registered as an Austrian national.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I do not see the relevance of the second source. The first source only mentions the quote you presented while my sources deal exclusively with the question of citizenship. Furthermore, your source goes along with my sources. I had always advocated that Austrian and Hungarian national citizenships are the only one that exist. However my sources are explicitly say that Hungarian national citizenship was called Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary, in Croatia, Slavonia, Military border. Also you had intentionally or not made a huge mistake. The part of the quote "This distinction was recognized by other countries for reasons," is not in the context of Austro-Hungary. I will leave it to you to provide the full context of this quote to prove that your mistake was not intentional. If you do not do it, I most certainly will, however your intention to deceive will then be proved. Asdisis (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
The second source clearly says that the Military Frontier was incorporated into Croatia only in 1881, so Tesla was born in the Military Frontier, and not Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 21:51, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a clear example of WP:SYNTHESIS. A="Military frontier was incorporated into Croatia in 1881". B="Tesla was born in Military frontier". A+B="Tesla was not born in Croatia". Two sources that do not speak of Tesla specifically are combined into a conclusion about Tesla. Military frontier has always been in the legislative sense Croatia. The source A does not state anything about legislature. This editor has strong objections (to the point of misconduct) against using sources that do not talk about Tesla specifically on the grounds of WP:SYNTHESIS but when it comes to the question of Tesla's birthplace he has no problems with WP:SYNTHESIS. Furthermore this post does not have to do anything with this discussion and I advocate it is removed, along with my answer, if that is possible. Asdisis (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
WP:SYNTHESIS is allowed on Talk pages. See end of first paragraph of WP:NOR. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:32, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
He continues talking false claims how "Military frontier has always been in the legislative sense Croatia". Bob K31416 do you agree with me that the user should first debate that on the corresponding articles and only then eventualy return here to Tesla article? FkpCascais (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Not really, because that wouldn't affect the issue that the proposal violates WP:NOR. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:46, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Your quote is a deliberate attempt to deceive because you had driven it out of the context so that its meaning is completely changed. The sentence "This distinction was recognized by other countries for reasons..." is not regarding the first part of your quote, as you suggest. Everyone is free to see the full context here: [1]. Asdisis (talk) 12:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

General discussion regarding citizenship question in Austrian Empire and Austro-Hungary

This section should produce general conclusions about citizenship question within Austrain Empire and Austro-Hungary, that apply for groups of people. For instance "all people living in Austrian Empire up to 1867 have a common Austrain citizenship" , or the suggested claim "all people in the lands of Hungarian crown from 1867 have common citizenship called Hungarian in Hungary and Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary".

I've done some research on this question, and after long time I think it is time to resolve it. KIENGIR had asked for help a long time ago, and no one had interest to help, but when it came to the question of Tesla's birthplace everyone were experts. My conclusion is the following. After 1868 and Croatian-Hungarian settlement two forms of citizenships existed in the lands of Hungarian crown.

I have more sources, but I still need to go trough them. For now I think this is enough to start the discussion. The matter to discuss is what to write under Tesla's citizenship, national or/and local citizenship. My suggestion that both national and local citizenship should be stated.

So the formulation would be: Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship with local citizenship of Croatia-Slavonia.

Local citizenship was primary when it came to determine important rights. More about that in the presented source.

"The law on the Croatian Domicile(Heimatrecht)...was the first law that regulated the question of belonging to Croatian local communities in a systematic and rather complete manner...it was the basis for exercising particular civil and political rights derived from the Croatian autonomy which had been defined by Croatian-Hungarian Compromise...of which the most important were electoral and the right to hold posts in public service" [2] (go down to summary).Asdisis (talk) 00:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


  • Reject the proposal I do not think that this question/request makes sense at all. The phrase "national and local citizenship" is just laughable. Spam and trolling "supported" by a blog and a private publication--72.66.12.17 (talk) 02:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
That's not a valid argument. Maybe it is laughable to you, but that's what the sources tell. You are free to present your sources. Asdisis (talk) 13:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Here are some more sources. This time they are not on English but FkpCascais can confirm the translation is correct.

  • "With the establishment of the dual monarchy apart from Austrian, a Hungarian citizenship was constituted for all the lands of Hungarian crown. This citizenship in Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was in practice called Croatian-Hungarian. Apart from Croatian-Hungarian [called National citizenship in English source] citizenship very important was the local citizenship of Croatian-Slavonia which as earlier was based on belonging to a certain Croatian-Slavonian municipality. Croatian-Hungarian agreement stated that legislation will be mutual and that executive authority will belong to Croatian-Slavnoia separate and Hungary separate." (page 713, 714) [Naturalization in Croatia and Slavonia from 1848 to 1918 , hrcak.srce.hr/file/176422]
The last sentence is important to understand why the same citizenship was called Hungarian in Hungary and Croatian-Hungarian in Croatia-Slavonia.

"The costitution [1849.] determined one common national citizenship for whole empire and the local citizenship was renounced"[Naturalization in Croatia and Slavonia from 1848 to 1918 , hrcak.srce.hr/file/176422]

  • "...from the time of the dismissal of Sabor in 1861. to the Croatian-Hungarian settlement in the state law a tentative state according to which in Croatia-Slavonia an Austrian national citizenship and Croatian-Slavonian local citizenshop was in force " (page 711)[Naturalization in Croatia and Slavonia from 1848 to 1918 , hrcak.srce.hr/file/176422]
In this way I actually need to correct myself. Local citizenship existed from 1861. Therefor I add this to my request for edit. I apologize for my mistake. I started the discussion without fully investigating the sources, because I expect KIENGIR to help, since he is the one that started the discussion about Tesla's citizenship some time ago. The paper i referenced when I started RfC was called "Hungarians and Citizenship in Croatia-Slavonia 1868-1918", and it did not deal to events prior to 1868.

Also I have resolved the question of Tesla resigning on Austrian citizenship in USA. Not only that but much more.

  • To quote: "...Austro-Hungary in international relations appeared as a single political subject...and that according to foreign states, all members of Austro-Hungarian empire were held as a single political nation and the territory of the empire as united in a single political subject so a single Austro-Hungarian citizenship existed [to foreign states] ... so the 1. Austrain state constitutive law from 21st December of 1867 stated that ...for all for all citizens of kingdoms and lands present in the empire state council there exist a common Austrian citizenship " (page 798)[3]
This source confirms what we thought earlier. All people from Austro-Hungarian empire appeared to foreign stated as Austrain citizens. That unfortunately means that in all foreign documents Tesla will appear as Austrian citizen so we can't conclude anything from them about Tesla's citizenship within Austro-Hungarian empire. Asdisis (talk) 13:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

But Asdinsis, we have the following problems. First is that, as you say, the A-H citizens to foreign world would appear as Austrian citizens, but that is what ends up being what matters. Second, you are providing sources about studies done in the Zagreb university (not really scholarly published sources) about citizenship during A-H period, and none talks about Tesla. So we cannot guess what Tesla nationality had based on any of this. And third, and maybe most important, we know what your final intention here is, which is to say Tesla was Croatian, and we have seen you trying to get there through various ways, and still, even if you got a case here, which you don't because none of this is directly sourced for Tesla, it want get you where you want. FkpCascais (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not say that A-H citizens to foreign world would appear as Austrian citizens, but the presented source. I opened a discussion about Tesla's citizenship within Austro-Hungary. I shall state that clearly on the top. The view USA or some other country had on that matter does not matter. Special rights were gained by both national and local citizenship in Austro-Hungary, and that is what's important, the right's determined from them. The sources I presented are scholarly published sources, you can clearly see ISSN numbers stated. We do not guess Tesla's citizenship upon this. If you read the sources you could have seen that special principles applied when citizenship was determined. Citizenship was not determined for each person individually, but special principles applied, and it was presumed. I already answered you on this question, and I had quoted the article and directed you to further read the source. I shall repeat what the sources tell "As in all other citizenship laws, the fundamental principle for the acquisition of citizenship was the principle of ius sanguinis.". This is not in any way guessing as you are trying to present it. Anyways I should also state here that you took my statement from earlier from my answer to KIENGIR:
" I don't think there's much we can do with history literature, because it will say in general that people in Military zone became citizens of Croatia after 1881, but nothing about Tesla specific. "
After studying source I found that statement to be false. Citizenship laws were applied on determined principles, and not for every person individually. The sources I presented speak extensively on that question and I shall include quotations to disprove your claim.
The final intention is to determine Tesla's citizenship objectively. I strongly oppose that introducing the word "Croatian" is something wrong as you are trying to present it. That is a subjective claim. I agreed Tesla's citizenship was to be stated as Austrian, and that edit was introduced in the article. You had no objections then although the same "problems" you spoke off appeared back then as well. Neither back the no documents relating to Tesla were presented either, and you had no objections. Now you have strong objections when I studied the sources and when I'm purposing to introduce the change which includes the word "Croatian". That shows how subjective you are. Asdisis (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


New source that deals with Tesla specifically: "Nikola Tesla- Croatian origin". The source is Italian encyclopedia. http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/nikola-tesla/

I intend to study Croatian sources because I think those sources deal with the question of Tesla's citizenship more extensively. Unfortunately there aren't many sources available online. However I will try to find them. I studied almost all the sources I studied before and many of them do not speak of the question of this topic. Some mention the fact upon which we all agree, that Tesla was a subject of the Austrian emperor. Best regards. I hope I will have some help this time in the research. I can't carry this whole discussion especially when people like some people here are not discussing in good faith, but interfere to the point of misconduct. Asdisis (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I would also like to include this source. According to MrX, published articles are valid sources. I had an extensive argument with him about the source included in the article stated under number 3, BBC's article. It turned out it is a valid source.

http://www.neurope.eu/article/get-know-croatia-28th-member-european-union/

The article stated Tesla as a famous Croat. I also note that this source has to be taken in the context of the previously presented sources which state the general claim. This source as, the previous one, specifies the claim to Tesla. That's the second source that specifies the general claim to Tesla. I know subjective people will object but the general claim by itself is enough to conclude that Tesla had mentioned citizenship. However since wikipedia has its own rules I provided the sources that specify the claim to Tesla. Asdisis (talk) 21:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Outsiders view

I have been watching this page for a good while now and have seen the point of his citizenship be argued here several times. May I suggest that Wikipedia is not the place to answer questions that are not clearly answerable? If the sources contradict each other then represent each of them according to their weight. If the sources don't give a clear answer then don't say it. What we certainly should not do is figure it out for ourselves.

If there is no clear answer in the sources then we should document what is in the sources and leave it at that. Chillum 15:34, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree. However if all presented sources tell that all people in the lands of Hungarian crown have a common citizenship called Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary, then I think there is only one clear answer. This is the base claim to be determined at this point. I will open a separate section dealing with that question so the discussion is not clogged.Asdisis (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Sections that deal with the question of original research

Please write under this sections regarding the claims that original research was done. So the above discussion about the general question about citizenship is not clogged. I strongly suggest we firstly make conclusions on the upper sections since only then we can determine if original research have been done, or if it is reasonable to draw a conclusion about Tesla from the upper sources.

I will copy all of the above discussion about that question here.

Is there anything related actually to Tesla here? FkpCascais (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
First of all, I think it is sad that you all have ignored the discussion until I opened a RfC, although I invited you several times to join the discussion because you stated that you oppose my suggestion. You tried to ignore the previous discussion and revert any change I make with the explanation that I'm making changes without consensus. Thus I do not think you are participating in good faith.
Now to answer your question. Yes, all this is related to Tesla. Citizenship was presumed. For instance local citizenship was gained by birth, marriage..etc. Also, read the presented sources which explain principles upon which citizenship is granted. To quote from the above source: "As in all other citizenship laws, the fundamental principle for the acquisition of citizenship was the principle of ius sanguinis." Asdisis (talk) 13:06, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Where do you see original research? I quoted only secondary sources. Asdisis (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You don't have any source saying Tesla had Croatian-Slavonian citizenship, that is why all this is useless. FkpCascais (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC) 15:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
That's right. Asdisis, editors are not allowed to draw conclusions from sources, that is called WP:SYNTHESIS. If you want the article to say Tesla has a certain citizenship, the only supporting sources allowed are sources that actually say Tesla specifically had that citizenship. --ChetvornoTALK 15:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Please distinct local citizenship and national citizenship. I will address those as separate.
About national citizenship. There are also no source that Tesla had Austrian citizenship up to 1867. However there is a source that tells that every person living in Austrian Empire has a common Austrian citizenship. Furthermore there are sources that tell that after 1867. all people lining in the lands of Hungarian crown have common Croatian-Hungarian citizenship. This is also an answer to the allegation of original research. If by any chance it is determined that this is an original research that both Austrain citizenship up to 1867 and Croatian-Hungarian citizenship from 1867 to 1892 should be removed. However I do not think it will came to that because this are so basic claims that can not constitute an original research. A simple logic tells that is all people in Austrian Empire have Austrian citizenship then Tesla is among them. If all people in the lands of Hungarian crown have a common citizenship, then Tesla is among them. I will rest my case with this on the matter of national citizenship and the allegations of original research and your claims that sources do not Tell anything specific about Tesla. One thing is sure. No one objected when Austrian citizenship (both up to 1867 and the recent edit from 1867) was introduced that there are no sources that speak specifically of Tesla.
About local citizenship applies the same. If the sources tell that all people living in municipalities of Croatia-Slavonia have Croatian-Slavonian local citizenship, then Tesla is among them. I will further source this question since it seems that only it is under question and the matter of national citizenship is pretty much straight forward.
Lastly I would like to state that you haven't presented a single source to this discussion. Even if I'm wrong the question of Tesla's citizenship will remain unresolved. The present formulation is not sourced and it is closely coupled with my suggestion. They are based on the same principle, a common logic that if the rule of citizenship is applied to everyone, then it is applied to Tesla as well. So please present your sources. Asdisis (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I would like to state here that I presented a source that deals with Tesla specifically. I'm working on finding other sources, especially Croatian. For now I went trough a dozen English sources and none of them mentions which citizenship Tesla had before he became American. I know I presented a single source but sources on this question are obscure. I haven't cherry picked, and I hope the other people will help to find some more sources. Asdisis (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Reject whole RfC proposal as ORIGINAL RESEARCH, or better say, falsehood. There is a number of references, given by other users on this page, specifically stating that Tesla was an Austrian citizen. Another two proofs are his birth certificate and his passport. No proof that he ever was naturalized as a Hungarian. Croatian citizenship was reality long time after - in 1992.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 12:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
There is only one reference that says "As his former nationality Tesla listed Austrian". However the sources on the general case say that Tesla was obligated to list "Austrian" even if he had Hungarian citizenship. Tesla's birth certificate and his passport do not state his nationality. Furthermore, those are a clear examples of original research. Regarding Tesla only 3 sources were presented. One mentioned above, which is ambiguous and 2 sources that state "Tesla was of Croatian origin" and the other source that said Tesla was "Croat". I will make a separate section with the summary of this discussion at some point, so we avoid false claims like the one that "There is a number of references, given by other users on this page, specifically stating that Tesla was an Austrian citizen." when there is only one source that says "As his former nationality Tesla listed Austrian" and 2 other sources mentioned above that deal with Tesla specifically. Furthermore the Austrian and Croatian in those sources are not clashing, because other sources state that "there was a common affiliation to the empire" so a person of Croatian-Hungarian citizenship had this affiliation even if he had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship. The question of local Croatian citizenship is completely untouched apart from 2 sources mentioned above that state "Croatian". Yes, the decision will be hard because not a single source exists that deal with Tesla's citizenship specifically. Only sources that mention it in one sentence without any footnote. Asdisis (talk) 13:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
  • What some almost anonymous third class rated college teacher wrote ('local citizenship') is nothing more than birth place and residency. Moreover, moving to the US, Tesla got USA permanent residency. As we see from notable European academic sources there was no ever 'Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship'. Croatia was a province of Hungary having more restricted autonomy that, say, Dalmatia and Istria, as the provinces of Austrian Empire. Please, stop spamming further this page!--65.220.39.79 (talk) 16:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
If we could only take your opinion as granted. Asdisis (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The base claim regarding national citizenship

Since there is an issue what constitutes an original research I started this section which will deal with that question.

Up to now, all presented sources support the following claim: "All people in the lands of Hungarian crown have a common citizenship called Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary". That is open to debate in the upper section. For the purposes of this section we must rely on the conclusion of the above section. Then we can determine is a reasonable conclusion can be drawn and if it constitutes an original research.

The question is. Is it reasonably to conclude that Tesla who lived in the lands of Hungarian crown, outside Hungary, had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship.

I do not think all people here are discussing in good faith, so I'm trying to simplify the discussion with this section. The walls of text will just clog the discussion and the conclusion would be that there is no clear answer when in fact I think the above claim gives a clear answer.

Remember there are two claims made in my suggestion. The claim about national citizenship and the claim about local citizenship.

  • The "national citizenship" and the "local citizenship" (as offered here) are utter nonsense and ignorance not known to the international law before nor today. Please, stop spamming this page!--72.66.12.17 (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
That is what the sources tell. I do not think your word is stronger than the presented sources. You are under wrong section. In good faith I invite you to present the sources to support your claim. Asdisis (talk) 17:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
    • This user does not understand the basic notions he tried to elaborate. Tesla, by his birth was an Austrian citizen. All internal constitutional changes in Austria and later, Austria-Hungary did not change his citizenship status ever. Particularly, abolishment of the Militaergrenz and its inclusion into Croatia, which was a Hungarian province, has nothing to do nor ever changed a citizenship status of any Austrian citizens in the Austro-Hungarian Empire later.--72.66.12.17 (talk) 17:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
That is not correct. I've put the links so everyone can see for themselves. I would like to copy this to the correct section, but I'm afraid since I was accused of disruption. This is not he section to discuss and present the sources, but a section to discuss the base claim. Please, in future write under the right section. I've spent a lot of time to organize this discussion, and I've done that in good faith. I do not think that clogging the discussion by writing under wrong sections is done in good faith. Asdisis (talk) 17:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I would like to state that I agree with the suggestion of the others (not counting FkpCascais's raging) to find sources that speak of Tesla specifically. I'm am however keeping the sources that tell the general story about citizenship in Austro-Hungary. They prove the general claim, and I only intend to specify it to Tesla. The sources that support the general claim are still valid and a strong indicator that the specific claim about Tesla is also true. Also I do not dismiss this base claim and I expect a conclusion is reached on this claim. It would be a good idea to hear from experienced users regarding this claim. Asdisis (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the claim that "There was no Croatian state nor Croatian citizenship in 19th century" and I had advocated for that claim the whole time, and even presented sources on that matter. Also I explained my stand to this user multiple times, and he keeps misinterpreting it. Asdisis (talk) 14:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

The base claim regarding local citizenship

To be done.

I will construct the base claim that determines will deal with the issue of original research and the sources not mentioning Tesla by name in the same manner as above. So we can distinct the discussion about original research and the general question about citizenship.

Asdisis (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Disregard this. The general consensus is that sources that deal specifically with Tesla should be presented. I agreed upon consulting Chillum. I would like to thank him on his objectivity. Asdisis (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Reject, please. There was no Croatian state nor Croatian citizenship in 19th century. The local citizenship is a figment of imagination of some third rated Croatian college teacher.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 11:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately your principle is applicable to your claim. To phrase you: your claim is a only figment of your imagination. Asdisis (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Isnt this disruption?

Asdinsis changes posts, changes the order of discussion, makes tons of edit-requests with tons of walls without anything significant for the article, he doesn't know when to stop and has no respect for other users opinion whatsoever. The latest word of his which is "Is it reasonably to conclude that Tesla who lived in the lands of Hungarian crown, outside Hungary, had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship. ". No it is not reasonable to conclude anything of this cause all you have are some obscure Croatian sources which don't even mention Tesla, and he had Austrian citizenship, we don't fucking care about writing about national and local citizenships if we don't even have a source linking any of this with Tesla. Enough for God sake! FkpCascais (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I tried to reorganize the discussion so we can deal with specific questions separately. If I've done something wrong according to Wikipedia rules, I apologize. I won't make further changes to the structure of the discussion. I don't agree with you. I separated the issued so we can discuss them separately. That will resolve the question of walls of text. I disagree I do not have respect for other opinions. I have reorganized the discussion in good faith, and without knowing that I'm breaking some rules. I do not think you are objecting in good faith since I made this discussion simplified. I will bare the consequences but I'm prepared to argue that I had done it in good faith. Your objection may be sustained, but I'm prepared to argue that it is not done in good faith.
Yes, the base claim is "Is it reasonably to conclude that Tesla who lived in the lands of Hungarian crown, outside Hungary, had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship. ". I made it very simple, haven't I? I also separated the question about sources to the above section. You can discuss them there. In my opinion that made the discussion simplified. My base claim is the mentioned here and I stand by it. If it is determined that it is false, then regardless of the sources my suggestion should not be accepted. That in my opinion simplified the discussion. I think the conclusion from the above statement is reasonable and I expect objective people will agree. If not, then be it, I'm wrong. I do not think you discuss in good faith, and I said my arguments which sustain my claim, from saying that Croatian and Serbian sources are not credible by default, to the claim that there is something wrong by introducing any statement containing the word Croatian in the article. That is subjective.
My claim is two way process. Firstly I'm proving with sources the following ""All people in the lands of Hungarian crown have a common citizenship called Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary"". Then I claim that it is reasonably to conclude that this applied to Tesla specifically. If I fail on one of this steps my suggestion fails, so I made the discussion simplified.
Please present sources that claim Tesla had Austrian citizenship. If my suggestion fails, the question of Tesla's citizenship will still be an opened question, so you should definitely present sources.
Also I would like to reflect to your statement "we don't fucking care about writing about national and local citizenships". You said that I do not respect other users opinions and this statement clearly prove that you are the one who does not respect other users opinions. Furthermore your swear is just one more argument that proves that you are subjective. Also the fact that you ignored this discussion before I made a RfC , although I invited you several times, further confirms that you are subjective. You also did not object when I and KIENGIR agreed that Tesla had Austrain citizenship, which was done without any source. It was based on the original research, only on this [4] evidence. This clearly constitutes an original research, yet you had no objections because you object only when the word "Croatian appears. Asdisis (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources Tesla had Austrian citizenship, starting with the entry ticked in the states saying Austrian citizenship. We are not going to conclude anything if you don't have a reliable source saying it. Cause your logic is like this: "If on March 21, 1889, Tesla wasn't in Helsinki, Finland, then we can reasonably conclude he was in Caracas, Venezuela." He may not have had any local citizenship, he was born in Military Frontier which was directly under Vienna rule and he may well have just Austrian citizenship. We don't care what some assistant professor in Zagreb university says about local citizenship, if it is not related to Tesla. I don't care about your claim process, present a source saying Tesla had some Croatian citizenship, or otherwise go somewhere else with your synthesis and original research. Either you don't understand or you are just such an obsessed nationalistic POV-pusher who doesn't give a fuck and just goes and goes till it get what it wants. Plenty of established users already called your attention and said things to you, but you don't care. Go and report me f you want, I would just love to provide you a boomerang cause this is insane, you are making fun of this entire project. You should have been blocked for long time now for POV-pushing, not being able to disengage, for IDONTHEARYOU, you attitude is disruptive. Find sources about Tesla or otherwise leave this talk-page if all you have is synthesis and original research which is the case. FkpCascais (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Please present those sources. Also for now, it seems that you are doing an original research. Also, note that I had presented a source that confirms that claim that USA viewed all people from Austro-Hungary as Austrian citizens. My source thus tells that we can't conclude anything from foreign documents as they will state citizenship to be Austrian. I clearly described the base claim my whole case rests upon. Your analogy is not valid in my opinion. However I respect you had stated it clearly so objective people can see that your objections rest upon flaud logic. The sources are quite clear. For all lands of Hungarian crown citizenship is the same, called Hungarian in Hungary and Croatian-Hungarian outside Hungary. Thus your claim that he may had Austrain citizenship because he was born in Military frontier is falce. Furthermore, it is not in dispute that he had Austrain citizenship up to 1867, but the sources tell that had changed with Austrian-Hungarian settlement. You had not presented a single source and you are clogging the discussion intentionally with the claims that go directly against all the presented sources, yet you refuse to present sources of your own. Your statement "We don't care what some assistant professor in Zagreb university says about local citizenship" again shows that you are biased and subjective. Nothing more to add here by my, your statement perfectly describes your credibility. Again I have to repeat you own claim "you have no respect for other user's [peoples' in this case] opinions." You are subjective and you proved that in too many instances. I may even make a separate section with all your statements or object in other way about your bias, when I investigate how to state that according to wikipedia's rules. Now I will ask you directly. How and where can I object , complain or state my argumentation that you are biased and subjective, and that you have contempt towards anything Croatian? I suggest you answer or I may have use you refusal to further sustain my argumentation. I claim that you are POV-pusher since you haven't presented a single source. You demonstrated how subjective you are in numerous ways, and I called you upon that on every occasion so and everything is documented on this talk page. I strongly stand by my claims and unlike you I tend to confirm them with sources. You are the one who had not presented a single source, yet you dismissed all my sources by default, with no valid argument. I care what they said, I just do not agree. To every one I answered and presented my stand objectively. I only do not care what you say because you demonstrated your contempt, bias, and subjectivity. I do not know if there is a basis in the wikipedia's rules to report you and I'm not sure of the process. I has been a long time I had participated in discussions on wikipedia, and even back then I haven't been familiar with the rules. I do not wan't to learn all the rules of wikipedia, but I want to participate in this discussion on the most objective way. Every claim I made was supported with sources and just your statement that characterizes that as POV pushing is an argument to my claim that you are subjective. I may have synthesis and/or original research. I had even opened a separate section to discuss that. I may be wrong, but everything you are doing has no excuse. Even if I'm wrong I had participated in this discussion in good faith. I presented sources to support my claims. I constructed the base claim that will determine in an easy way if I used synthesis and/or original research. Everything I've done was in good faith, even the disruption you had accused me of. You on the other hand had not done anything in good faith. You had no objections when I agreed that Austrian should be stated as Tesla's citizenship, since you only have contempt towards Croatia. I'm sorry , but this walls of text do not help anyone and I accuse you of doing this deliberately so the discussion is clogged. We can see how much you objected and how much you had contributed, and I'm a fool since I keep answering your trolling. At the end I will be accused of posting walls of text according to that one rule of wikipeida that some people applied to me in the previous discussions. This is the last answer to your trolling. Either present the sources to disprove my sources or write your argumentation to disprove my base claim or stop trolling. You do not respect how much time I spent researching and gathering sources. I spent several full days just for the source to confirm mine and KIENGIR's suspicion that to the USA all people from Austro-Hungary were viewed as Austrian citizens. You had not researched for sources of your own so you do not know how hard it was to find a source that would specifically confirm that claim. You do not know because you haven't bothered to present a single source. I would please ask you (in the principle of good faith) or some other experienced editor to help me construct a complaint about your misbehavior. Contact me on my talk page. Asdisis (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You are the one wanting to make changes, you are the one having to present sources that would back your proposed change. You don't have even one source saying Tesla had Croatian-Slavonian citizenship, till then there really isn't anything to discuss here. FkpCascais (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Ditto!--72.66.12.17 (talk) 18:41, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You both need to stop the personal attacks; it can get you blocked. --ChetvornoTALK 18:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
I presented sources. It's funny that now you insist that sources explicitly tell something about Tesla and back when I presented several dozen sources that Tesla was born in Croatia you objected. Furthermore I and KIENGIR introduced the edit that Tesla had Austrain citizenship. You participated in that discussion and you had not objected that there was not a single source that tells specifically of Tesla. In fact it was me who insisted on that. However since then I changed my opinion since I found out that citizenship was presumed and not declared specifically for all people in the empire. That means that the act of 1867 when Hungarian citizenship was introduced for all people living in the lands of Hungarian crown, it applied to all people living there. Since then I changed my opinion according to sources. What have you done? You haven't objected when we edited citizenship to be Austrian although it was clearly done upon original research. Now you have strong objections only because the sources have directed me towards a word you despise so much, "croatian". And yes, you have to present sources to support you claims. I presented sources to support my claim, maybe they will be rejected, but you say in this matter is for sure irrelevant since you have prove yourself to be subjective, biased and with a strong despise towards Croatia. I know that I haven't presented sources that deal specifically with Tesla, but I have presented sources that tell that citizenship was presumed. That means that we do now have to deal explicitly with Tesla. I constructed a base claim and whether it will be sustained or rejected is to see. However one thing is sure, your objections are subjective and done from strong contempt towards Croatia (and also based on falud logic as you showed ealied). I do not have such contempt and if the sources lead me to include a word Croatian then so be it. I'm not pushing Croatian POV, but trying to objectively conclude what the sources tell. You on the other hand are doing just so , pushing anti-Croatian POV. If my suggestion is dismissed it won't for sure be because of your biased objections, accusations, and contempt towards Croatia. Asdisis (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Only you don't see that everyone has dismissed your sugestions long time ago. And yes, I object both Croatian and Serbian nationalistic approaches on this article. And as you recognize, you only raised the citizenship issue so you could come to this point claiming he had Croatian citizenship, so don't play games with me, you don't give a dime for Tesla, all you care is to Croatisize him, and till you don't have clear consensus and a fair number of reliable sources, yes, I will be opposing all this nationalistic attempts of yours. FkpCascais (talk) 18:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Some people have stated a valid argument that this constituted an original research. I constructed a base claim and I look forward what those people think about it. You already answered and I argued that your logic upon which you object is flaud. Also I stated that I find your objections irrelevant. Out of your contempt you do not even know my stand. I had not claimed Tesla had Croatian citizenship. I claimed he has Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship with the local citizenship of Croatia-Slavonia. You don't care what the sources tell. You only care that the word "Croatia" is not mentioned in the article. That much was obvious back when you objected several dozen sources I presented that told Tesla was born in Croatia. You presented it numerous times again during this discussion. You are trying to present me as someone who pushed Croatian POV in an effort to discredit me, and the fact is that you are the only one here who's not objective, not only that but you have a strong contempt towards Croatia. I went where the sources led me, and I confirmed every of my claims with sources. You on the other hand had not presented a single source in all of your objections. I sure hope that people like you who do not present a single sources can not disprove the presented sources with their misbehavior. I would be very disappointed in wikipedia, however every of this discussions is saved, and I'm happy there will be a written trail of this. Maybe I write a book on the matter of editing wikipeida and I include this discussions in it. I still hope the majority of people are objective unlike you. I will talk to them. I will report you for the accusation that I have nationalistic agenda. I supported my claims with sources and you haven't. If someone has nationalistic agenda, that is you. A person who is trying to push his way without any source. Asdisis (talk) 19:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Keep in mind it doesn't matter what's on this talk page, nobody is going to read it. Either side can stop this argument by not responding, leaving the other side to argue with himself. --ChetvornoTALK 19:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Why is nobody going to read this? Why am I bothering with the search for sources and this whole discussion then? I spent several full days in the search for the sources so the question of Tesla's citizenship can be resolved objectively. On the other hand it is documented what FkpCascais had done. Also I would like to hear your opinion on my base claim. Asdisis (talk) 19:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You are absolutely right. I just wanted to make it clear I am not opposing his edit proposal because anything else but the reasons I mentioned. Best regards, I am out. FkpCascais (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Your reason was that none of my sources mention Tesla specifically. That is why I constructed separate section to deal with that question. If you had been discussion in good faith you would thank me for reorganizing the discussion in a way that people who think original research have been done can prove that in an easier way. Instead you accused me of disrupting. Asdisis (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Nothing about Croatia. This encyclopedia biography should remain true to the mainstream biographies of Tesla, none of which say he was Croatian. He was Austro-Hungarian by nationality and Serbian by cultural heritage. Binksternet (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
A few reactions because I was mentioned. I do not think reverting my edit would lead to somewhere, since this status is much more valid than the former one, where a practical hole remained because of uncertainty. If there is something sure I kindly ask the one who proved it to add. I'd do the same. I don't know if it is a misunderstood, but I cannot agree with that all citizens from Austria-Hungary were regarded as Austrian citizens outside, or if yes, it is a clear mistake, since Hungarians from Austria-Hungary with Hungarian citizenship can not any case regarded Austrian citizens, never by any legal means, since not ever in history, also before the Compromise not ever a single moment in Austrian Empire anyone from Royal Hungary had Austrian citizenship, becuase they always had their own Hungarian citizenship, by this there was not any second/third level view. If i.e. the U.S. regarded them Austrian citizens, they made a clear mistake because they had Hungarian documents. I debate also having an "Austro-Hungarian" nationality. It is viable in a way regarded from outside, but only would be valid if anytime an Austro-Hungarian citizenship would existed, but such never existed. It is hard to understand for those who see a big joint political entity. Not any Hungarian, Austrian or Croatian or else declared himself having Austro-Hungarian nationality.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC))
But then we came to the same problem. Your edit was done on original research. The fact that no one objected is just because you haven't used the taboo word "Croatian", but the fact remains. If my suggestion is dismissed, then we do not have a single source that tells us anything about Tesla's nationality. No one presented such sources, and I urged people who disagree with me to present such sources. Yes, according to the presented sources, all people from Austro-Hungary are Austrian citizens to the foreign counties. However inside Austro-Hungary two national citizenships existed. Austrian and Hungarian, which was outside Hungary called Croatian-Hungarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdisis (talk • contribs) 23:29, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
About the birthplace, other Wikipedias maintain like German: Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire. Would it solve your birthplace issue? I cannot interpret the term "national citizenship", not for Austria or Hungary for sure. I don't care the sources, A Hungarian citizen of Austria-Hungary could not any means regarded as an Austrian citizen for foreign countries, since the country neither was only Austria, and the citizenship was also not Austrian. Franz Liszt, who's ethnicity and nationality is heavily debated, the "Austrianizers" use American sources stating as "being an Austro-Hungarian citizen, he was virtually undistinguishable from any Austrian". Stupidity, he was a Hungarian citizen with Hungarian passport, with a Hungarian birthplace. This view also cannot be held to the former Austrian Empire times regarding Hungary. Ok, you say the sources say that, but the Wikipedia's own Austrian Empire, Royal Hungary and Austria-Hungary articles and the evidence presented by them will immediately abolish this POW of some foreign states. Hermann Oberth was also a Hungarian citizen, but the Anglo-Saxons immediately tried to identify him as an Austrian....he had only Hungarian and later German citizenship. Joint Austro-Hungarian, or highest level Austrian citizenship that would include Hungarian national citizenship never existed. Hungarian citizenship was an equal to the Austrian one. However, I do not exclude this regarding Croatia, although I firmly believe they should have their own citizenship, not necessarily only at "national" level.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC))
Not exactly, but it would be better then the present formulation. Anyways people would strongly oppose that, because it has a word "Croatian". Nevertheless I intend to resolve that question. My claim is that Military frontier is in the legal sense Croatia, although it is under military administration. The analogy is eastern Croatia which was under UN administration until reintegration in the 90'. The question is where were people born back then. In UN? If you would like to find out how it is to introduce any edit the contains the word "Croatian" try to purpose the edit to be done which would state Tesla was born in "Croatian Military Frontier". I will continue gathering evidence for my claim, and I will start a discussion when I prepare it thoroughly. For the rest I point you investigate this claim from one of my sources. "1. Austrain state constitutive law from 21st December of 1867 stated that ... for all citizens of kingdoms and lands present in the empire state council there exist a common Austrian citizenship " Asdisis (talk) 00:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
I understand, I met similar case when Slovaks do not even want to hear "Hungary" prior 1920, so everybody was born in Slovakia, even when the state not even existed, but i.e. let an American editor to decide about it, than it cannot be stated it is again a Croatian-Serbian "war". Please give the address of the source or send me the full text. A detail you cited refers to an "Austrian constitutive law", it has no connection to Hungary and the Hungarian constitutional law. It may refer inside Austria-Hungary the Austrian side, and the lands and kingdoms inside of Austria. It is viable only like so. Austria had many territories being not originally Austrian lands, it may refer to these (i.e. Galicia and Lodomeria)(KIENGIR (talk) 14:00, 1 June 2015 (UTC))
Then you understand perfectly. If the sources tell something then we must go towards that direction. I think I presented sources that point directly to my claim, however we still need to prove it according to wikipedia's rules. I'm sorry, I investigated secondary sources and I already put the quotation upfront. I do not have source to the original law, but if you are interested I can help you find it. I don't think that the source tells that the mentioned law only applies for the lands of Austrian crown. The source is speaking about how all people from Austro-Hungary were viewed as a single political nation for foreign countries and the name that was used was "Austrian". I helped as much as I can, but I leave to you to investigate and find the mentioned law and see what it says. However note that that would be an original research. I used a secondary source according to wikipedia's rules. Asdisis (talk) 17:09, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, I am confirmed in this case, and I really don't care what foreign countries viewed, because anyway they made many confusions, even with old maps. I know the legal rules and they are presented in the Austrian Empire, Royal Hungary and Austria-Hungary articles. Austrian Empire never lawfully included Hungary. Dual citizenship were banned. The distinction by the aticles, and the Hungarian constitutional law is crystal clear. Not any case a Hungarian citizen could be regarded as Austrian, this "national citizenship" could not be applied since Hungary was an equal partner of Austria. So long the cited secondary source does not say a word of Hungary, it has to be interpreted as it is talking about the Austrian administered lands that is not the historical Austria. Even if you went to the Autro-Hungarian embassy, first you had to chose you go to the Austrian side, or the Hungarian side to arrange your case. If I am frankly sure about something, this is. Of course, the one who doesn't know the rules they judge by the King's origin or the house of the Crown, maybe because Kaiser und König were an Austrian that time, but we had also Anjou Kings. The Hohenzollern ruled Romania also. The joint entity of a Monarchy can lead easily to misunderstanding to those outside who don't know the inner rules. "Austrian state constitutive law from 21st December of 1867" -> Austrian state law has nothing to with Hungarian state law, they were totally separated.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:42, 1 June 2015 (UTC))
The sources I present agree with your claim. Austrian and Hungarian citizenships "canceled" each other. If someone had Austrian national citizenship, then he could not have Hungarian national citizenship and vice versa. I completely agree with you, and the is exactly what the sources tell (I hope I do not need to go and find a quotation since we both agree upon that). However the the sources also say what I had quoted. That is not in any way in clash with the claim we both agree. The purposed law only regulated how people living in Austro-Hungary will be treated outside. If you see Tesla's patents, you will see that he had written "subject of the Emperor of Austria...". Shortened, in one word that was written as Austrian. That is not in the clash with the claim I make, that Tesla had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship. The conclusion is, everything you said is right and I agree, however to the foreign counties Austrian was only written as citizenship. That is only a pure statement, and the citizenship in the full sense of the word is in complete agreement with everything you said. I suggest you further investigate with the pointers I gave you. I can help you by translating what the source I have says, but note that my translation can bring ambiguity. Look at this claim "After 1867 there existed a single affiliation to the empire which was implicitly derived from the Austro-Hungarian settlement but there existed a separate affiliation to Austria and Hungary which each half administrated for itself". I think this explains it well. Your claim is correct , as you are talking about the last part of this quotation. The fist part says that "After 1867 there existed a single affiliation to the empire which was implicitly derived from the Austro-Hungarian settlement" That is the affiliation viewed by foreign countries and it is only declarative and the separate affiliation (called in the sources , national citizenship) was the one from which all concrete rights were derived. I think that this resolves your question. Also I studied sources in detain and I can tell you that the question of citizenships is a complex one. I suggest you find literature on the subject and you will see how complicated this question is. Even the leading Croatian historians disagree whether a separate Croatian citizenship existed. That is the reason I did not advocate for it to be included in the article, but for Croatian-Hungarian citizenship which was the official name used by Croatian parliament. Asdisis (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, I still disagree with that you say is legal. We cannot conclude this from Tesla's patent, since even his citizenship is debated, it is a much more bigger chance of his Austrian citizenship than Hungarian, the latter is almost impossible (and I don not refer of the national/local Croatian citizenship debate), more before 1867, so it's not a suprise if he refers to the Emperor of Austria. So long if you cannot present a factual source about this, everything remains a good aimed speculation of fragment information. If foreign countries put to everbody Austrian, it is an illegal act, a clear mistake, impossibility. I have to repeat, not any case I consider this viable, since Hungarians would not make the compromise with the Austrians, because for centuries they wanted to conquer Hungary (also lawfully), it alwas ended in an uprising and it never happened. Please until any proof - that I say to have impossible - do not present this as a factual thing. Don't minsunderstand me, I appreciate your research, but so long it is not clearly wriiten from an original document where the terms Austria-Hungary, Austria and Hungary is in one whole sentence, it remains just a theory(KIENGIR (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC))
Actually it's virtually impossible Tesla had Austrian citizenship. If you agree, you and I can continue our discussion on mine or yours talk page, because it includes original research and it can not reach any conclusion that would be accepted to the article. Contact me. All of your posts are based on original research. I have nothing against that, I even value it more that a source which simply says "Tesla had Austrian citizenship" without clarifying anything more. However, wikipedia's rules are against original research, so I purpose to have this discussion elsewhere. I already presented secondary sources that back up my claims. I haven't misunderstood you, and although we have a disagreement I value your objectivity. However note that I'm trying to use secondary sources and you are using original research. Statements "Hungarians would not make the compromise" and "from an original document" are original research and guessing. I again note that I want to continue this discussion because I accept your arguments, although they are original research. Contact me. Asdisis (talk) 07:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is a disrupton. This RFC is full of spamming and trolling. There was no Croatian state nor Croatian citizenship as it was elaborated below in a separate section. For Nikola Tesla citizenship are lawful only his personal documents: the birth certificate showing that he was born as an Austrian citizen, the Austrian passport, his patent applications where he claims to be an Austrian citizen. He could be only Hungarian citizen, but there is no proof that he was ever naturalized as a Hungarian citizen.--65.220.39.79 (talk) 11:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
That is why I reorganized it. All the sources presented are in the first section, and the base claim regarding SYNTHESIS are in separate sections. I tend to answer a lot, and if someone people are deliberately troll, I can't do anything. I however give an objective contraarguments. I participated in your section as well although I do now know why are you opening new discussions instead of participating this one. The birth certificate? I haven't seen such document and I would appreciate you present it. However you do realize that is an original research based on primary source. I had to be confirmed by secondary sources. Same goes for passport, a primary source. Patent applications, also a primary source, and my secondary sources explained that question perfectly. I completely agree with your claim that Tesla could only be Hungarian citizen and I confirmed that with sources. At this point you do not even know my stand, and I had repeated it especially to you multiple times. I also proved that the citizenship was presumed and determined on defined principles. No proofs that Tesla went trough naturatization process. And the Hungarian citizenship was presumed. That is clear from my sources, however if more quotes are required I'm prepared to extract them from sources. Asdisis (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

In the case of rejecting the suggestion

In my opinion I think I proved that all people living in the lands of Hungarian crown had Croatian-Hungarian national citizenship. However because of specific wikipedia rules it seems that I can not claim that this applies to Tesla although it applies to all people among who is Tesla. The same goes for Tesla's citizenship up to 1867. Each and every person living in Austrian Empire up to 1867 had Austrian citizenship, however we can't specify if Tesla had it. I'm satisfied with what I had accomplished, although it will probably be rejected because of wikipeida's rules. This leaves us in an interesting situation. The present formulation has no sources to confirm it. It was done on the same principle that everyone advocated is against Wikipedia's rules. Thus the present formulation should be deleted until sources are found. However even then, a question has to be asked. I'm not familiar that any source that deals specifically with the question of Tesla's citizenship exist. A source that briefly stated that Tesla is Austrian citizen may exist, however I do not think that we will see a footnote next to that statement, because the source does not deal with the question of Tesla's nationality primarily. So what to state in the article? I also note that no one in this discussion tried to resolve the question of Tesla's citizenship. The present formulation can not remain on the grounds that were rejected in this discussion as against wikipedia's rules. I will strongly oppose that, so please, you who opposed my suggestion provide sources that will tell something about Tesla's citizenship. Asdisis (talk) 23:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I just answered above, but because of an edit conflict, this pharagraph preceded my answer. "Each and every person living in Austrian Empire up to 1867 had Austrian citizenship" -> this is not true for Hungary, but maybe you referred to the Austrian Crownlands excluding Hungary. Further details about my opinion about "national" citizenship above.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:14, 1 June 2015 (UTC))
Your continual posting here is disruptive, and your words here promise more WP:BATTLEGROUND action. This question has been discussed many times, by hot-headed Croats and hot-headed Serbs. The general consensus on this talk page over the last decade is to do as little as possible to satisfy any expressions of nationalist pride of the opposing parties. We should continue to say that Tesla was born in a part of Austria-Hungary that is today's Croatia, and that he was ethnically a Serb. Binksternet (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Dear Binksternet, if this was addressed to me, I have to refuse. I did not make any disruptive posting, also the "battleground" charge does not hold. My post are only connected to professional precisity and evaluation of information, in a manner to correct false or misunderstandable data. I don't support any nationalist pride or whatsoever. As you see, I do not intervene directly to Croatian-Serbian affiliations, but I correct false information about Hungary. Anyway the information I provided helps in a way to investigate the case, since Kingdom of Hungary is also related in this issue. (KIENGIR (talk) 13:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC))
He was obviously talking to me, and I appreciate your objectivity according to which you did not know who he was addressing. I would just like to state that it is wrong to see this discussion as a part of Croatian-Serbian affiliation. We are here to be objective. Asdisis (talk) 17:09, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources — Tesla

This section is for listing reliable sources regarding Nikola Tesla's citizenship and the relevant excerpts from the reliable sources. Regarding what reliable sources are acceptable, please note the following excerpt from the lead of the Wikipeidia policy WP:NOR.

"To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented."

What this means is that the excerpt from the reliable source must be about Nikola Tesla, not just about citizenship in general for a country. Otherwise, we can't add the info to the article per WP:NOR.

I'll start it out with the following reliable source and excerpt. (This source was recently added to the article by FkpCascais and I touched it up a bit.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

  • W. Bernard Carlson (2013). [/books?id=5I5c9j8BEn4C&pg=PA138&dq=austrian#v=onepage&q=austrian&f=false Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age]. Princeton University Press. p. 138. ISBN 978-0691057767. {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help)
“ ‘...Yet only four or five years ago, after a period of struggle in France, this stripling from the dim mountain border-land of Austro-Hungary landed on our shores, entirely unknown and poor in everything save genius and training.' 28
     Basking in the role of the poor immigrant who made good, Tesla decided it was time for him to become an American citizen. In July 1891, he filed an application in the Common Pleas Court of New York. As his former nationality he listed ‘Austrian,' but as his occupation he listed 'civil engineer,' reflecting what he had studied in Graz.29 Tesla had come a long ways from his student days in Austria."
I added bold font for the main part of interest. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately this source does not help us. All people from Austro-Hungary appeared to the foreign counties as Austrian citizens (see the source above). Nothing is being said about national nor local citizenship. This source obviously stated what Tesla wrote as his former nationality, but other sources clearly state that he was obligated to write Austria even if he had Hungarian national citizenship. Thus we can not conclude anything about Tesla's national nor local citizenship. He even may had Austrian national citizenship, but we can not know that from this source. Also if that is the case, we have a bit problem, I will deal with that later, but for now I think I proved that we can not conclude anything from this source. Asdisis (talk) 07:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, imagine if the source says that Tesla's former citizenship is Austrian. The this would bring even more ambiguity. Look at the source presented earlier: "for all for all citizens of kingdoms and lands present in the empire state council there exist a common Austrian citizenship ", the source then goes and explains the distinction between this "common citizenship", and national citizenships. The common citizenship is just declarative so all people from Austro-Hungary appear as a single political nation to the foreign countries. The word "Austrian" in this context does not have anything to do with inner Austrian national citizenship. We can not conclude anything from that source as it does not clarify anything nor it deals at all with the question of Tesla's citizenship. We have sources that explain the general concept of citizenship and although those source do not specify Tesla's case, they explain the general concept. If a source says "Austrian citizenship" and it does not clarify anything more. If it does not include a footnote to see from where this conclusion was drawn, we can not conclude ourselves if this statement is regarding the common declarative citizenship what was used in foreign affairs, national Austrian citizenship, or local Austrian citizenship. Also note one more thing. National citizenship was derived from local citizenship. A person who lives in Croatia-Slavonia has the local citizenship of Croatian-Slavonia, and he can not have Austrian national citizenship. The Croatian-Hungarian citizenship is derived from the local citizenship. Yes, the matter is complex, and I apologize for so long comments, but I can not explain it in a sentence or two. If you saw sources, they explain it even more extensively, and include dozens of footnotes. Asdisis (talk) 07:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
From your message, it appears that you don’t know of any source that specifically says Tesla’s citizenship or nationality was anything other than Austrian. You only have sources about citizenship in general and not specifically about Tesla’s. So we can’t put anything like that in the article per WP:NOR.
However, your message questions Tesla’s claim that his nationality was Austrian and I presume you think that we shouldn’t mention that his citizenship was Austrian in the article. You made various points in this regard. Let’s start with the first one you made and focus our attention on it.
Re your comment, "This source obviously stated what Tesla wrote as his former nationality, but other sources clearly state that he was obligated to write Austria even if he had Hungarian national citizenship.” — Please give the sources and the excerpts from those sources that support your comment. I presume they don’t mention Tesla specifically, and that’s OK for now, since this part of the discussion is about what not to put in the article (Austrian citizenship). --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Allow me to explain few things Asdinsis seems to be ignoring. The first one is that Tesla was born in the Military Frontier which was at time under direct control of Vienna (not Croatia-Slavonia), so by that Tesla would probably be able to obtain Austrian citizenship. Second, Asdinsis talks about people living in Croatia-Slavonia, but he forgets that Tesla lived in Austria proper, since 1875 in Graz, and late 1870s in Maribor, then in 1881 he moved to Budapest. So we have no reason whatsoever to disbealeave Tesla had Austrian citizenship as he was not tied at all to Croatia-Slavonia. And third thing, if Austrian citizenship is what appears to foreign world, well, that is what actually matters, it is like USA citizenship being asked in California, Ohio, Maine, it doesn't really matter. Asdinsis point is to prove he had some "local citizenship" (?) in Croatian-Slavonia so he could later claim Tesla was Croatian, which is an absurdity. FkpCascais (talk) 12:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment, but I would first like to hear from Asdisis because otherwise I think that my last message might not get answered. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:05, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
This post constituted an original research. Nothing here is founded in sources, as FkpCascais had not presented a single source. Furthermore , presented sources directly oppose some claims made here. Asdisis (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I investigated a lot, and I can say that there is no source that deals specifically with Tesla's citizenship. Some sources only briefly mention Austrian from the fact that Tesla wrote Austrian when gaining American citizenship. However now I presented sources that confirmed our doubts. To USA every person from Austro-Hungary was viewed as Austrian. I already explained that those brief mentions are ambiguous and furthermore incorrect regarding national and local citizenship. Even if I'm wrong and my suggestion is rejected, we do not have a single source that speaks specifically on this question. Look above to see what Italian encyclopedia says, that Tesla is of Croatian origin. So what to do now? It's a tough question and it is not as you said that there isn't "any source that specifically says Tesla’s citizenship or nationality was anything other than Austrian.". If it was the answer would be easy, and this discussion would not be so long. That is a way to simplistic way to present it and the way to suggest the answer. I already explained that we can't conclude anything from the statement that Tesla has Austrian citizenship. If my suggestion is rejected, I will strongly oppose to include ambiguous sources in the article, that do not include any footnote and deal with the question in only one sentence that clearly use the mentioned primary source which content is explained by sources I presented. No, I presented 2 sources that mention Tesla specifically, and I intend to find Croatian sources that are more likely do deal with the question of citizenship. Yes, I will oppose to state citizenship as Austrian, if no sources that aren't ambiguous are presented. I'm glad you understand me perfectly. Yes, my previous comment is about what not to put in the article because the source is ambiguous. I already presented a source that confirms my claim. To quote again: "...Austro-Hungary in international relations appeared as a single political subject...and that according to foreign states, all members of Austro-Hungarian empire were held as a single political nation and the territory of the empire as united in a single political subject so a single Austro-Hungarian citizenship existed [to foreign states] ... so the 1. Austrain state constitutive law from 21st December of 1867 stated that ...for all for all citizens of kingdoms and lands present in the empire state council there exist a common Austrian citizenship ". I can find more quotes to confirm my claim if needed. The claim is that separate Austrian and Hungarian(Croatian-Hungarian) national citizenships existed, however people from Austro-Hungary appeared to the foreign countries as a single political nation. Asdisis (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Could you give the source and link to the source, for the quote beginning with "...Austro-Hungary in international relations appeared as a single political subject..." that is near the end of your message? --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I already presented that source. [5] (page 798). Unfortunately it is on Croatian. I suggest you ask FkpCascais for help with the translation. I can help as well. The whole source is interesting and I'm really disappointed I could not find any source on English that deals with the question of citizenship in Croatia in 19th century. If you want i can give a broader translation instead of dots in several places. Also look at how many footnotes the source has. Unfortunately, If you look at books about Tesla, none of them deals specifically with the question of citizenship. At most you can find that he "stated Austrian" while being naturalized, which is objective statement. The author had done no research so he says that Tesla states Austrian and not that he had Austrian citizenship. Other sources may explicitly say Austrian but no further explanation or footnote. From the context I personally can only conclude that the source for such claim is the same as for "Tesla stated Austrian", or even misinterpretation of the claim "Tesla stated Austrian" to the claim "had Austrian". In any case "Austrian" is ambiguous and we can not conclude if it is regarding Austrian or Hungarian national citizenship.In my opinion the only source that was presented and that isn't ambiguous and speaks of Tesla is Italian encyclopedia that says "of Croatian origin". Croatian-Slavonian is the most specific form of citizenship so this statement is not ambiguous. I still need to investigate Croatian sources that I think may deal more extensively with this question. Asdisis (talk) 21:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Here is another quotation from the same source and same page. "After 1867 there existed single affiliation to the empire..., but there existed another(special) affiliation to the Austria and Hungary...". Asdisis (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Than you, I will use it, however I had already found more than a dozen sources. I will open that discussion after this one is finished, and after I resolve one more question which ambiguity had led to the wrong conclusion in the previous discussion. Asdisis (talk) 07:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Asdisis, Tak a look at this source. It claims that Croatia was a "Domain" of The Austrian Empire and that Tesla was a "Serb growing up in Croatia". [1]
"Austro-Hungary in international relations appeared as a single political subject...and that according to foreign states, all members of Austro-Hungarian empire were held as a single political nation and the territory of the empire as united in a single political subject so a single Austro-Hungarian citizenship existed [to foreign states]" -> This does not prove a single Austrian citizenship to everybody in Austria-Hungary. This would suggest an Austro-Hungarian citizenship, that never existed.
"so the 1. Austrain state constitutive law from 21st December of 1867 stated that ...for all for all citizens of kingdoms and lands present in the empire state council there exist a common Austrian citizenship". -> again, Austrian constitutive law has no any connection or affiliation to the Hungarian constitutive law. What you say may be valid for Austrian ruled lands, kingdoms, entities, as I said. Hungary was Regnum Independens! With this two secondary citation you cannot prove your point of view regarding the case. Anyway, as you asked, I will contact you on your personal page, but please, until final proof, do not propagate this a proven fact, because it is not. Thanks (KIENGIR (talk) 22:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC))
Reflist for the above message:
  1. ^ [/books?id=DzMR8x_rbPgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=nikola+tesla+biography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JlFzVbSyFcGXygSlwJdQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nikola%20tesla%20biography&f=false /books?id=DzMR8x_rbPgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=nikola+tesla+biography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JlFzVbSyFcGXygSlwJdQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nikola%20tesla%20biography&f=false]. Retrieved 6 June 2015. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Look what the source says "After 1867 there existed single affiliation to the empire..., but there existed another(special) affiliation to the Austria and Hungary...". I explains that a single affiliation to the empire was used only declarative in international affairs. It is not a citizenship. No rights are derived from it. See the distinction it makes between a "single affiliation to the empire" and "another(special) affiliation to the Austria". I think you are misinterpreting the source in the way the you think Austrian national citizenship is equal to the "single affiliation to the empire". You can see how Tesla described that "single affiliation to the empire". He wrote on his patents "a subject of the emperor of Austria". However when a single word was to be written like in the naturalization form, the word used was Austrian which meaning is just "single affiliation to the empire", although Tesla had Croatian-Hungarian citizenship. As for the interpretation of the source, we are not allowed to do that. Yes, the source suggests a single affiliation to the empire that was in the international affairs called Austrian. It does not suggest that is a citizenship. It clearly states that there is not Austro-Hungarian citizenship. "again, Austrian constitutive law has no any connection or affiliation to the Hungarian constitutive law...", this is your interpretation of the source. I'm not saying the fact is proven, but that is what the only presented sources say. I'm open to a discussion with you. Asdisis (talk) 11:27, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Asdisis, KIENGIR is right, you are constantly talking several issues as proven facts when they are just your supositions. Your entire fight here is just because you hope to convince everyone that Tesla had Croatian-Slavonian "local" citizenship so you could next claim he is Croatian.
First of all, till now regarding the possible "local" citizenship all you have is the unpublished writing of one assistant professor from the University of Zagreb, Croatia. That is very weak source, cause everyone knows how much historical revisionism has been done in former Yugoslavia after the 1990s, so knowing the tendency, it is not strange to find people in Croatia doing their best to present some sort of independency and power Croatia had while under Habsburg rule. That is why some non-local sources are preferable.
Second thing, even if there was some Croatian-Slavonian "local" citizenship, you have no sources linking Tesla to it, and I am really disappointed that you are hoping editors will "buy" that just based on supositions. Without a source saying Tesla had it, your entire walls of text about A-H citizenships are useless for this article.
Third thing, you are constantly talking as proven fact that Tesla is linked to Croatia. I will repeat to you once again: Tesla was born in Smiljan, and at time of his birth it was part of the Military Frontier. KIENGIR, I don't know if you noticed, but Asdisis either doesn't understand or intentionally ignores what the MF was. He constantly talks as if MF was part of Croatia, like if it was just temporarily under some military control, something like, as he already said, an UN zone in Croatia during the 1990s war. That is why he says "Military zone". He doesn't understand that Military Frontier was a separate unit within the empire under direct rule from Vienna, and that the MF was much more and larger than the part of it which was annexed to Croatia later. He confuses MF with Croatian Military Frontier and thinks that they are the same. He fails to understand that the MF was the unit (what matters) and that the Croatian MF was just one inner section of the MF. By the time it started the abolishment during the 1870s and 1880s, Tesla had moved to Graz, then Maribor, and finally, Budapest.
Fourth thing, so even if there was some "local" Croatian citizenship, we couldn't speculate that Tesla had it, even if we assumed he stayed in Croatia all the time (which is how Asdinsis is making the supositions up there). Tesla was not physically tied to Croatia, right the opposite, he was born in the Military Frontier. If there were "local" citizenships, he could eventually gain Austrian one as MF was directly ruled from Vienna and regarded as direct Austrian dominion (my speculation, but valid as Asdinsis claims). He stayed some time in Karlovci attending high-school (by that time part of Military Frontier), and in 1875 he moved to Graz, inner Austria where he stayed till 1879 on a Military Frontier scholarship! In 1979 after a short stay in Maribor, he returns to Smiljan (by then not MF anymore but Croatia), and in 1880 he goes to Prague, Bohemia. And finally in 1881 he moved to Budapest where he stays one year before going to USA. So basically, he spend just one year, in Croatia-Slavonia, the rest was either in Military Frontier, Austria or Hungary. So even if proven that there was some "local" Croatian-Slavonian citizenship, we cant assume anything regarding Tesla. FkpCascais (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Not me, the sources say so. The only presented sources. If you again try to attach nationalistic agenda to me, you will be reported. In fact, the only person who's motives are to be questioned is you. Stop with ad-hominem attacks and start presenting sources. Also stop with your guessing. You haven't presented a single source for your guesses, yet you object to the sources I presented. That is subjective.
I presented several sources so your claim about "all you have" is false. Further more those are published sources and anyone can go and see how many footnotes they contain. More than a hundred for 20 pages of text. You can't discredit the sources, and the sheer attempt to discredit such credible sources is only a statement to your objectivity. If you find the sources are stating false claims you can present sources that contradict them. That is the only way to discredit the sources I presented, and your argument that all Croatian sources are not valid, is biased. Furthermore some sources clearly state that they relay both on international literature and Croatian literature on the subject.
The existence of Croatian-Slavonian local citizenship is the question the there sources deal extensively with. No one has opposed it, and no sources are presented in such cause. I presented 2 sources that speak specifically of Tesla, so you other claim is false. I somewhat accept the argument that we need sources that speak specifically about Tesla. That is why I presented two sources and I'm looking for more. Up to now we have only 3 sources that speak of Tesla. Only one states "that Tesla wrote Austrian on official form" in USA. And we have a source that stated "even if Tesla had Hungarian citizenship he would be obligated to write Austrian". Other 2 sources say "of Croatian origin" and "Croat". So there you go, that's all we have. If that isn't enough, I will strongly oppose to state anything in the article that is not founded in reliable sources.
The sources about general question of citizenship are not useless. We found out that the sources that say "Austrian" are ambiguous and not in contradiction with any of my suggestions. We also found out in general about the question of citizenship-> Common Austrian affiliation, Austrian and Hungarian national citizenship, Austrian,Hungarian,Croatian-Slavonian...local citizenship...
The discussion about Tesla's birthplace will come soon after this one. Anyways, your claims about Military frontier form an original research. This whole comment is a case of original research, guessing ("Tesla may have"), and so on...
I presented 2 sources that deal specifically of Tesla. Maybe you haven't noticed them on the top. As I said, I will make a summary of this discussion where everyone will be able to repeat their stand in one post.
"If there were "local" citizenships, he could eventually gain Austrian one as MF was directly ruled from Vienna". That is your guess that goes directly against my sources that speak of the general question about citizenship. This guess is not possible. Local citizenship for every lands of Hungarian crown, except Hungary itself is Croatian-Slavonian. That is what the sources tell in general. This perfectly illustrates their importance.
Local citizenship was reinstated in 1861. Tesla moved to Graz in 1875 as you claim. He would have Croatian-Slavonian local citizenship for 14 years up to 1875. No other local citizenship he could have. Only Croatian-Slavonian local citizenship existed in the area Tesla lived. There is no chance that he could have Austrian. Furthermore I presented 2 sources that speak of Tesla specifically. Asdisis (talk) 16:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I just brought a scholar source talking directly about Tesla and citizenship, which is more valid than all your low quality sources talking about everything but Tesla. Mostt I said in my previous comment is actually sourced in the article (Don't you see it?). The source saying Tesla is of Croatian origin doesn't mean he had Croatian-Slavonian citizenship, you know that very well (actually I brought that source here to this discussion, but the same encyclopedia has 2 articles for Tesla, the other one seems they corrected themselves and say Yugoslav).
Regarding Tesla birthplace, you will ask what and backed with what sources? You are really questioning that Smiljan was part of the Military Frontier at time of Tesla birth? With all the information on disposal, your notice of intention here is disruption in my view and you should be blocked.
Please don't answer to me, leave room for other users to comment. Ignore me. FkpCascais (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
But I already answered to all of this in the above comment. Asdisis (talk) 18:42, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Bob K31416, since the RFC on Nikola Tesla's nationality/ethnicity and country of birth has been closed I will respond to you here about reliable sources. In the above discussion about Nikola Tesla's citizenship I provided a reliable source specifically about Nikola Tesla which was a transcript of his high school grades on which it states (in Croatian) that his homeland is Croatia. The first few sources used in the Nikola Tesla Wikipedia article I assume are considered reliable and they all state that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. Let's not forget Nikola Tesla's own statement- "I was born in Croatia", written in his Tribute to King Alexander, October 19, 1934. So in the face of all this evidence there are still some editors who don't believe that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia, which makes me question their intelligence and motives. I will refrain from talking too much here because I may get blocked like the editor Asdisis. I sense panic building among some of the editors here, it seems that they want to suppress information about any involvement Nikola Tesla may have had with Croatia, which is utterly despicable behaviour on their part. It is as clear as day that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia. Clear as day.Michael Cambridge 08:50, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
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