Talk:Nikoulitzas Delphinas

Aromanian ancestry

Hello Super Dromaeosaurus. I know that you essentially improved an already existing category (diff1, diff2) and added a template (diff3), but the article doesn't mention anything about an Aromanian ancestry. It only says that Nikoulitzas Delphinas was a grandson of Nikulitsa, who was a Bulgarian noble from Larissa according to the respective article. Are there any reliable sources to support the claim that he also had Aromanian ancestry?

Cplakidas, hello to you as well. I see that you were the one who initially added the category (diff). Was this a mistake or based on a reliable source? Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Demetrios1993 the category I added was 'Aromanians in Greece', which was a catch-all category for the topic. My intent was to categorize this as being relevant to the history of Aromanians in Greece, since his revolt, and the title of his grandfather, are the first (IIRC) record of the Vlachs in Greece. Constantine ✍ 20:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't remember if any source I have read claims that Nikoulitzas himself was Aromanian. Constantine ✍ 20:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply Constantine; your rationale makes sense and i agree with it. SD, do you object to restoring this version? Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for the delay. I do oppose the restoration of the version, at least fully. The Vlach revolt by Nikoulitzas is one of the first strictly Aromanian history events. Vlachs only start being recorded in the area where Aromanians live in 976, if I remember correctly. I can provide some sources studying this topic including Nikoulitzas' revolt as part of Aromanian history. For this reason, I believe the navbox should be kept.

As for the categories calling him an Aromanian, the problem here is that the academic term for the Aromanians this early in history is Vlach, therefore there's not articles directly calling him an Aromanian. Still there's not too many works calling him a Vlach either, I have found this [1], which says he might have been a Greek or a Vlach. Nevertheless, Category:Greek people of Aromanian descent would still be warranted. In Wikipedia articles in which the ethnicity of a subject is disputed, I've seen that the categories of each ethnicity claim have remained, see Athenagoras I of Constantinople or Theodore Kavalliotis. A possible solution to create a balance here could be adding an equivalent of Category:Aromanian military personnel. What do you think? Super Ψ Dro 07:29, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

No worries Super Dromaeosaurus. In fact, i don't object to keeping the navigational template at the bottom, for the sound reason given above by Cplakidas, and you reiterated. I also don't object to keeping the new categories after reading the quote by Winnifrith (1987). By the way, i have full access to the book; here is the paragraph that relates:

We know that the Vlachs were under Byzantine control at this time because of the third mention of Vlachs in Kekaumenos. Kekaumenos, or to be strictly accurate, the author of the Advice to the Emperor which was found next to Kekaumenos' Strategicon, says that his grandfather Nikoulitzas had been appointed to the post of ruler over the Vlachs of Greece in exchange for a post in Constantinople which was given to Peter, the nephew of the King of the Germans. The exchange was made because Peter was a foreigner, and this suggests that Nikoulitzas was a Greek, although some have claimed him to be a Vlach. It is possible that Vlachs were considered as Greeks at this time. Both this Nikoulitzas and Nikoulitzas the Delphinian were connected with Kekaumenos, and both were connected with the Vlachs, but clearly two generations separated them. This does suggest some kind of semi-hereditary command. It is fairly certain that Nikoulitzas, the grandfather of Kekaumenos, was the same Nikoulitzas who was in Larisa during the campaigns against Samuel. It is less certain that he was the same as a Nikolitzas mentioned by Kedrenos as frequently changing sides between Basil and Samuel. The exact relationship of all people called Nikoulitzas to the family of Kekaumenos is extremely obscure, and the text almost certainly has to be emended.

Can you please also include a summary of Winnifrith's (1987) quote in the article, per WP:Verifiability, and maybe add categories that you find appropriate for Bulgarians and Greeks? Assuming that the claim about the Bulgarian ancestry is valid of course. I don't have time to check the references in the article of Nikulitsa, who appears to be the same as the aforementioned Nikoulitzas; the grandfather or grandfather-in-law (or great-grandfather-in-law) of Kekaumenos.

As for the first attestation of Vlachs, it was by the Byzantine chroniclers John Skylitzes and George Kedrenos, who wrote in the second half of the 11th century; describing an event from 976. Specifically, they wrote that David, the brother of Samuel of Bulgaria, was killed in 976 by Vlach wayfarers at the location of Καλάς δρύς; between Kastoria and Prespa. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I've added the quote and reference. Not sure what categories to add for the Greek aspect, as Category:Greek people of Aromanian descent does not have an equivalent while Category:Military personnel from Larissa is already subcategory of Category:Greek military personnel. Maybe we could add Category:11th-century Greek people, but there's no Aromanian equivalent, and it could be useful to only have the Byzantine equivalent free of ethnic labels. As for the Bulgarian claim, I'd first like to make sure Nikulitsa's ethnicity is considered to have been Bulgarian. Maybe he was a Vlach too, it was not strange in Bulgaria in these centuries. Super Ψ Dro 07:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

My two cents: I oppose a category for military personnel with an ethnic attribute. Why? First, because militaries are related to states, not ethnicities, hence nationality (in this case 'Byzantine') is the only appropriate marker; furthermore, because militaries, especially pre-nation-state and imperial ones, are often multi-ethnic; and because this tends to open cans of worms that leads to us adding categories for all possible ethnic affiliations of a person we know frustratingly little about. Second, there is no evidence that Nikoulitzas himself was 'military personnel'. His title is of military origin, but could also be given to civilians as a simple honorific dignity, and the article makes clear that he "is not known to have had any official position". Constantine ✍ 17:29, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with your first point as ethnic militias have been a thing throughout history, including for the Aromanians. I can provide an example at Armatoles#Aromanians; if any of the individuals there was to get an article of their own, an Aromanian military personnel category would be the best and only appropriate category in this regard in my opinion. Furthermore, if I've understood correctly, the revolt was against Byzantine authorities, so it would be paradoxical I believe to only maintain this category. furthermore, because militaries, especially pre-nation-state and imperial ones, are often multi-ethnic in this particular case, it appears that sources describe it as a "Vlach uprising", so we should be able to apply an ethnic marker to the army that undertook it. and because this tends to open cans of worms that leads to us adding categories for all possible ethnic affiliations of a person we know frustratingly little about I understand your point but disagree that this could justify the underrepresentation on the Aromanian people that I perceive throughout Wikipedia. We should maturely approach this issue and analyse each case individually, and decide if it is appropriate to have this category on this or that article or not. I think this is more productive than keeping the status quo only just for the sake of it being easier to deal with. And lastly, if Nikoulitzas cannot be considered "military personnel", then both the Byzantine and Aromanian categories should be removed and the issue would be fixed.

To conclude, I am fundamentally opposed to removing the Aromanian category and maintaining the Byzantine one, I think the best solution is to keep both (and maybe a few more with their respective ethnic designations) and I can agree to removing both, but only if we indeed cannot consider Nikoulitzas a soldier or whatever. Super Ψ Dro 16:34, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: If someone is a member of an 'ethnic militia', i.e., of a unit explicitly recruited from members of an ethnicity, then I agree 100% with having an ethnicity-based category. The Swiss or Irish regiments of the early modern period are a prominent example of such units. Otherwise, if I, as a Greek national (with at least part Aromanian and possibly some remote Slavic and other ancestry myself) join e.g. the Chinese army and serve in a normal unit of the latter, then I am not a 'Greek military personnel', nor an 'Aromanian military personnel' etc., but a 'Chinese military personnel'. At best, if I were part of a wider phenomenon, like the aforementioned Swiss and Irish soldiers (which, again, served in ethnicity-based regiments and not as individual soldiers), I might qualify for a category like 'Greeks in Chinese service'. On the issue at hand, a rebel leader is not 'military personnel'; so I agree with you that both categories should be removed. I would however suggest in addition the creation and addition of a category 'Aromanians in the Byzantine Empire' here and in other related pages, like Great Vlachia. Constantine ✍ 06:41, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I have removed both categories, I guess this concludes the dispute. And I did think of your suggestion for a new category, but I am not too sure. Early history of the Aromanians is short, I'd say most and the richest parts of Aromanian history took place under the Ottoman Empire. Few articles could be covered by a Byzantine category, in fact I am opposed even to an Aromanians in the Ottoman Empire category, at least for now. Thank to all participants here for the productive debate, have a good editing! Super Ψ Dro 17:53, 18 October 2022 (UTC)