Talk:Norris Church Mailer

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 March 2019 and 30 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dillbug, Mango Masala.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Article Organization and NCM

@Grlucas: @Dmcgonagill: @Waebo: Everyone, I have some questions about the Norris Church Mailer entry. It seems a little confusing to refer to her as Norris at times and then Church at times. I am not sure the organization works as well as it should. First Novel and Memoir refers to Mailer as if we already know about her relationship with Mailer. Would it work better to start with Early Life, then relationship with Mailer, then her writing/professional life, then illness and death? JVbird (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@JVbird: I agree about the oddity in order. I think it's defined that a major claim to her fame is being the wife of Norman Mailer in the intro. I don't like the heading of "Personal Life" I agree to change that to "Early Life" but follow it with "First Novel and Memoir" since this page is about her and then "Life with Mailer" followed by "Illness and Death".(Dmcgonagill (talk) 18:56, 29 March 2019 (UTC))

@JVbird: I agree with both points: Maybe "Church Mailer" should be used, or even "NCM"? Yes, "Early Life" should be moved up.

{{reply to|Dmcgonagill} Dana, Now I'm not sure about the First Novel and Memoir section. It repeats some of the information in the "life with Norman Mailer section and also again addresses her writing in terms of its relationship with Mailer. How can we get rid of the repetition there? Does it simply need to identify her publications and what they are about? JVbird (talk) 19:54, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@JVbird: @Dmcgonagill:I'm a little late to the party here, but I think the article would flow a bit better if her early life is discussed, then life with Norman, then cover her career(s), writing, etc. Thoughts? Amdoubleu (talk) 21:42, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@Amdoubleu: I agree with your statement, as I was thinking the same reading through the article. I also think the first sentence under the "Model, actress and artist" section should be moved under "Early life" as it is unrelated to her career. Ereed23 (talk) 04:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@Amdoubleu: @Ereed23: I agree as well. The flow would be clearer if life with Norman was covered then her careers. It would also be a better chronological approach as based on quick review of information her careers did not begin until after her life with Norman began. Bamcclure18 (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

If everyone agrees, I would like to move the "Life with Norman" section to follow "Early Life." As others have mentioned, the article makes a bit more sense if it follows her life chronologically and if all of her career efforts are grouped closer together. Amdoubleu (talk) 18:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Agreed L Riley (talk) 02:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

@JVbird: @Dmcgonagill: I have been reading several articles on Norris Mailer and I wanted to expand upon Norris life with Mailer. There is not much information about the lives between Norris and Mailer, so I am just going to add a little more information and correct the errors.Waebo (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

@Waebo: Sounds good, Rian. I still can't figure out all the errors in the citations. Let me know if you can figure it out! JVbird (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I added a new section: Model, Actress, and Artist for everyone to take a look at and tell me what you think.Dillbug (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Oh my! I just realized we are posting two Norris Church Mailer pages. One for Wikipedia and one for PM. This is the reason why I have been so confused all week. What a revelation! I an now clear and on board.Dillbug (talk) 17:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Citations

The article is coming along very well. Thanks to all the contributors.

That said, be sure you check your citations. There are quite a few errors published on the page (this should never happen). I recommend listing all of the articles in the bibliography §, then using shortened footnotes. You'll be amazed at how much easier this is. And will will lend a consistency to the article. —Grlucas (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@Dmcgonagill: @Dillbug: @Grlucas: Everyone, I worked on the citations to use the shortened footnote format. I need to add the page numbers, though, and the section on First book and memoir has not been corrected because I still think it needs work overall, so I didn't adjust the citations there, yet. What do you all think about the title of that section anyway? If it's about her career, including being a model, then maybe Professional Life or Career? If it is just about what she wrote, then Novels and Memoirs might be more specific? Then a quick review of just what she wrote might be more appropriate, with the information on Mailer being limited to the section, Life with Norman Mailer...I'm going to go have brunch with the family and will come back later to work on this section and put in the page numbers for those shortened notes. JVbird (talk) 13:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

@Dmcgonagill: @Dillbug: I tried to fix the citations but there are a couple that I still can't figure out and that are showing up with clear errors, including why the abbreviated notes are not showing up in order. Anyone know how to solve the issue? JVbird (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

@Grlucas, Dmcgonagill, and JVbird:I was able to fix the citation for the Tulsa obituary. Which other one are you referring to? I will take a look at if you would like, but I am not sure which one still needs workDillbug (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

The word "callously"

The word “callously” is in the following sentence: "Still in the early days of their relationship, Norris showed her rough draft to Mailer for his opinion, to which he callously responded, "It's not as bad as I thought it would be", causing Norris to put her work aside for the next several decades." In the cited source for this information, there is no reference to callousness on the part of Norman Mailer. The addition of this word seems to represent an assumption and doesn't follow the "neutrality" rules for wikipedia. My full evaluation is found here. L Riley (talk) 19:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lizrileymga: This is a good catch! I definitely support removing "callously" from the article as it reads a bit biased. Amdoubleu (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Suggested "Henry Higgins" related edit and additional opportunities to hyperlink

Under the Life with Normal Mailer section, "Henry Higgins" is linked to the play Pygmalion, which initially looks like a mistake when viewing the hover description. A parenthetical note that both Higgins and Doolittle are characters in the play Pygmalion would be beneficial. There are additional opportunities to link to relevant content, such as The Executioner's Song and All My Children. --OrchardBreeze (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Norris Church Mailer Article Evaluation

Norris Church Mailer

This article is being evaluated for a class assignment.

The article is written in a clear and easy to read format without any grammatical or spelling errors. It is broken down into sections that reflect the major topics of the article. The image that is within the article gives us a overview of Norris Church Mailer, it is well captioned, and it adheres to Wikipedia's copyright regulations. The lead introduction is very concise and it clearly describes the article's topic. It provides a brief description of the article's major sections and it does not contain information that is not presented in the article. Although the lead is concise, it does not contain information about her early life, health issues, and legacy. The content of the article is relevant to the topic and is up-to-date. There is no content that is included in the article that should not be there but there is content that is missing such as the fact that she was a member of the Actors Studio and she co-founded Norman Mailer Center and Writers Colony with Lawrence Schiller. The article is written from a neutral standpoint and there are no claims that appear biased toward any particular position. The article's facts are backed up by reliable secondary sources and the sources reflect the available literature on the topic. Also, the sources are current and the links tied to the sources work. The conversations that are going on on the talk page have to do with the organization of the page. The article is not rated but it is a part of five WikiProjects. The overall status is "start." The article could be improved by including more information about Norris Church Mailer's roles in the films and television shows she played in if that information is available. The article is well-developed since the information on Norris Church Mailer is very limited.

Was Norris Church Mailer raised by both parents and if so, why is there no mention of her father and his occupation? Qtwinbush45 (talk) 00:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Expand "Life with Norman Mailer"

The section titled Life with Norman Mailer should be expanded to include discussion on Norris Church Mailer's actual relationship with Norman Mailer. She was the sixth and last wife of Norman Mailer and the relationship between them was complicated but survived over 30 years. This in itself is a significant accomplishment. Part of that relationship includes Church Mailer taking on the role of mother to 7 step children for a total of 9 children. The relationship is discussed in many articles thus it warrants additional coverage in this article. Expanding this section would improve the balance and representation of the subject. This would also provide an opportunity to expand media by including additional photographs of the couple. Bamcclure18 (talk) 01:25, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Norris Church Mailer Life with Norman Bamcclure18 (talk) 01:25, 19 January 2020 (UTC) Norris And Norman: Love That Lasted Against Odds Bamcclure18 (talk) 01:25, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

@Bamcclure18: I had also made a note in my overall evaluation that it was publicly known and significant that their relationship was challenging due to Norman Mailer's trouble with monogamy (I also cited the NPR story! However, some of the current citations also note this). The section currently does not provide very significant language on this topic, and it would be more balanced and more neutral to provide those details.Bdokolasa (talk) 13:56, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Expanding "Categories" Section

The Categories list should be lengthened to include labels like "Models," "Women Writers," or "Actresses by Certain Town or City in the United States." Bdokolasa (talk) 13:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Norris Church Mailer the Mom and Wife deserve more.

Wikipedia’s article on Norris Church Mailer is an introductory article on the model, artist and author. The article begins with a lead section that is concise and clear referencing most section of the article. The content is a brief, neutral representation of information that does not attempt to persuade the reader to develop any type of position about Norris Church Mailer.

Facts presented in the article are accurate and supported by sources considered reliable. The facts are broken into sections of the article which reflect major points of her life. To improve the article the sections could be rearranged for better flow. If the Life with Norman Mailer section is moved to just after the Early Life section and before the Writing section, the chronological flow of the information is corrected and the references to the Mailer children made in the Writing section is supported. The article could be expanded with further detail in each area but for a brief overview of Norris Church Mailer her life is represented.

The Start rating given by the 5 related WikiProjects to the article is accurate by the definition provided by Wikipedia Assessment that the article "Provides some meaningful content but most readers will need more." It’s a good base to build on. Church Mailer’s life as a mother and her relationship with Norman Mailer is underrepresented in the article and is potentially a starting point to expand the article. The Legacy section also could be expanded with additional information on Church Mailer’s philanthropy efforts in the arts. Expanding these topics easily provides basis for inclusion of additional images. The article currently includes only one image of Norris Church Mailer which is CC BY-SA 4: Creative Common designation allowing the image to be shared. Additional valid sources and usable images are available to improve the article.

The page was a group effort between students. The Talk page conversations are collaborative. Their comments indicate they are respectful and working together to create the article. Bamcclure18 (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Minor edits

Hello! Minor suggested edits here:

"Norris and her young son moved to Russellville, Arkansas and explored her love of the arts...": This sentence has a compound subject ("Norris and her young son"), so when the verb is listed as "explored," it implies both Mailer and her son "explored" her love of the arts.

@Pfowler17: To correct this one, "she" could be added in front of "explored."Bdokolasa (talk) 03:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Great fix, @Bdokolasa: Will make that edit now.

Punctuation: In the quote from Norman Mailer, "It's not as bad as I thought it would be," the comma is written outside the quotation mark. Typically, in American English, punctuation is tucked inside quotes.

@Pfowler17: Good callBdokolasa (talk) 03:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, @Bdokolasa: putting this English major to use.

Update: nevermind. Reverting to original edit per note from Grlucas on [inside vs. outside]. Apparently the Wiki rules are very specific, and it should be outside, Bdokolasa (talk · contribs).

"simple country people": This phrase, seen in the section "Early life," is charged. "Simple" can be synonymous with "feeble-minded," and it might be read wrong.

@Pfowler17: I get what you're saying. I think it would be different if it stated that they lived a "simple life" instead of calling the people "simple." I don't have access to the original source to see if there was anything implied or if the writer of this article added it.Bdokolasa (talk) 03:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Good catch on the source, @Bdokolasa: I'm hesitant to make this change now, because I don't want to misstate the source.

"he callously responded": This phrase, seen in the section "Writing," is loaded. Describing Norris Mailer's response as "callous[ed]" is unnecessarily emotionally charged. @Lizrileymga:, I know you feel the same!

@Pfowler17: I agree. I looked at the original source and there was no emotion/adjective attached to the original quote.Bdokolasa (talk) 03:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for checking, @Bdokolasa: I'll remove the "callously."

My full article evaluation is here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pfowler17/Evaluate_an_Article

All thoughts appreciated -- thanks. --Pfowler17 (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Evaluating the Norris Church Mailer article

Hi, everyone! I'm jumping a little later into the evaluation of the Norris article. As my peers have mention, we do not have much thought on the success of the Norris'marriage of 30 years. At the same time, I believe that the reason for this could be that the topic would lead to opinion and stray away from the current neutral writing of the article. Ab1g81aL93 (talk) 03:00, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ab1g81L93: Hi there! I had also made note that some of the challenges in their marriage were not specifically outlined, but they do seem to be fairly well documented and publicly known. It seems like some more specificity might be better for a clearer article. Bdokolasa (talk) 12:27, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Bdokolasa: I believe adding more information about her work could be an important section that was not talked about in depth, what do you think, Bdokolasa? Ab1g81aL93 (talk) 23:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Pictures

One of the top sections on the talk page suggests that the addition of one or more pictures would help improve the quality of the article, and I tend to agree. I do realize that it may be difficult to find images that conform to Wikipedia's guidelines, though. An image of the subject with Norman would work well in the section regarding her life with him. A picture of her as a Wilhelmina model would also add to the articles quality, perhaps. Also, maybe a sentence or two explaining/clarifying what a Wilhelmina model actually is would be useful. Having no prior knowledge I was unsure if it (Wilhelmina) was a clothing line, business, or some other type of enterprise. Something along the lines of "She signed up to be a Model with Wilhelmina, a full service modelling agency in NYC", and maybe a line or two about any specific or notable modelling campaigns she was involved in might add some clarity to that aspect of the article. Dcb1986 (talk) 03:32, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Citation and works cited dates

Aren't the dates in citations supposed to match the date in parentheses in the worked cited list?L Riley (talk) 03:03, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Edit to the Table of Contents

Link to my full Evaluating an Article: User:JenniferMGA/Evaluate an Article

For our class assignment in Evaluating an Article, I chose to try answering the question: How can the article's organization be improved? In the Lead, Norris Church Mailer is listed as an American novelist, actress, artist, and model. I wanted to hear other's input on my suggestion to reorder the headings of the article. My idea is to have the headings listed out as:

1. Early Life & Family

(One discussion on the talk page suggested getting more in-depth with Norris's family so perhaps this section can be renamed to include Family here?)

3. Marriage to Norman Mailer

4. Career

4a. Novelist

4b. Model

4c. Actress

(with a chart/template listing the movies and shows she has been in and links to their respective pages)

4d. Artist

5. Health Issues & Death

6. Legacy

7. Citations

8. Works Cited

Would this help the flow of the article? JenniferMGA (talk) 03:18, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Claims of Misogyny

Readers unfamiliar with the Mailers' marital woes or with Norman Mailer's life might find the "...often defended Norman against critics who claimed he was a misogynist" with no citations or elaboration jarring or confusing. The introduction of misogyny as a topic definitely requires sources to maintain neutrality from article writers (even if the claims of misogyny are true).

My full evaluation is located here: Soudea's Evaluation Soudeaforbes (talk) 05:07, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Additional Sources, Names, Copy Edit

I found two additional sources: Bragg, M. A. (November 23, 2010). "Provincetown Arts 'hero' Mailer is missed". CapeCodOnline.com. Retrieved 2010-11-26. Italie, Hillel (November 22, 2010). "Norris Mailer; her memoir tells of life as author's 6th wife". Boston Globe. New York.

These sources tell of her funeral services in Provincetown, MA and her theatre contributions there. There is a lot of info here that could be added. The last two sections are very brief and leave the reader wanting more. Corrections/Edits In certain parts it refers to her birth name for story telling purposes, but then the article goes back to referring to her as Norris. This leads to a choppy and confusing read. A little copy editing could help. Also, this line, "Norris beat the odds and over the next 11 years had six major operations to fight the cancer, while taking care of her ailing husband." could be edited to Norris beat the odds and over the next 11 years had six major operations to fight the cancer, all while taking care of her ailing husband.The addition of "all" better conveys the impressiveness of the feat described. Kyle Tucker (talk) 05:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)