Talk:North Staffordshire Railway/Archives/2014

Comments

Goods traffic from Knutton to Silverdale did start in 1850, even though it was authorised nine years later than this.

Here is my explanation.

Ralph Sneyd owned many ironworks in the Silverdale area. In 1849 he began construction of his own private line which was about 2 miles long - this was not authorised by parliament.

So when the NSR came to build its line in this area it was leased to the NSR for the usual 999 years. However it was not authorised to carry passenger traffic which was done in 1859.

Aidan Croft

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Thanks for your comments Aidan Croft. Here are some of my views on this.

When I read that construction from Congleton to Macclesfield was authorised on June 26th 1846, I find it rather odd that the same statement says it opened for goods and passenger traffic eight days earlier! Likewise I find it srange that goods traffic from Knutton to Silverdale started in 1850, nine years before the line was authorised and long before traffic on the section Newcastle to Knutton. I put it to you that if the list is correct then there is a most unusual story to tell and you ought to tell that story rather than just publish an odd list.

On the matter of Cauldon Low, I note that Google manages 1,250 entries for Cauldon Lowe and a massive 22,300 entries for Cauldon Low . I can see there is a variant spelling with some antiquity in its support but there is significantly more local usage of the normal spelling than of the variant. Basil Jeuda's book "The Quarries of Cauldon Low" appears to be offered for sale under both names.

Well of course they were only a few paragraphs whereas I had the temerity to change one word that you had previously changed without asking!

Concerning Rights and Powers, there is a Wikipedia glossary of railway terminology at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_terminology which makes it clear that 'running powers' is the usual British term as opposed to the American which is actually 'trackage rights'.

Sincerely, NoelWalley 16:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

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Thanks for your comments NoelWalley. Here are some of my views on this.

I apoligise for deleting those few paragraphs. My reason for doing so was that I thought it may have been better for it to be in list form (as shown at the bottom of the article) but when I think about it a bit more, I realise that it is useful to have a summary in a few paragraphs as opposed to pure information in a list.

On Cauldon Lowe, it was changed because that is how it is spelt by people who live in Cauldon Lowe and the area local to that (Staffordshire moorlands), and I propose to change at least this back after receiving some comments on this from you.

"Rights powers": either will do!!

Conclusion:

• Cauldon Lowe must be changed back pending receipt of comments
• I send my apoligies for mistakes made

Aidan Croft

P.S the dates in the list that you pointed out to me are correct - thanks anyway!

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In his haste to reorganise a few paragraphs, User: 84.64.58.113 has, inadvertantly I hope, deleted several other paragraphs as follows:

Later branches included lines from Stoke-on-Trent to Congleton via Biddulph; Stoke-on-Trent to Leek; Newcastle to Silverdale, Keele and Market Drayton (junction with the Great Western Railway); Alsager to Audley, Lycett and Keele, and Rocester to Ashbourne.

The famous Loop Line from Etruria via Hanley, Cobridge, Burslem, Tunstall, Pitts Hill, Newchapel & Goldenhill to Kidsgrove Liverpool Rd. and a junction with the Manchester line was the last of the N.S.R.’s major undertakings.

Twentieth century construction included a branch from Leek to Caldon Low via Waterhouses from where the nominally independent narrow gauge Leek and Manifold Light Railway was constructed through the Hamps and Manifold river valleys to Hulme End near Hartington. Finally in 1910, a very short line was built from Stoke-on-Trent to Trentham Park. The latter was authorised as part of an alternative line to Newcastle-under-Lyme but construction work beyond Trentham was quickly abandoned owing to rising costs.

The Company prospered throughout its seventy-five years of independent ownership and operation, paid its shareholders good dividends (latterly a notable 5%), and successfully resisted repeated take-over bids by the London and North Western Railway Company.

I propose to reinstate them shortly NoelWalley 19:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

User: 84.65.26.36 has corrected Leycett for which I thank him. However, I find it difficult to accept his change of 'Cauldon Low' to 'Cauldon Lowe' and unless others tell me he is right, I propose to change it back.

In terms of common usage I see little difference between 'rights' and 'powers', however, 'powers' would appear to be the term most commonly used in Britain and 'rights' in North America (although their law may be different for all I know). I would never deliberately change someone's 'running rights' into 'running powers' and I expect the same consideration from others. Again I propose to reverse this change unless someone advises against it.

I used the full title London, Midland and Scottish Railway in the important statement re amalgamation. LMS needs an explanation which was not provided, and in the context seems trivial. Again I propose to reverse this unless advised.

I would ask if there is a policy concerning internal linkage. Surely if Uttoxeter is linked once in the article, that is sufficient.

If user: 84.65.26.36 reads this he will know that I sign my contributions NoelWalley 20:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Caldon Low/Cauldon Lowe

This is known to be controversial, even among locals, of whom I used to be one. Different publications and organisations use different variations e.g. the Ordnance Survey use Caldon Low for the quarries but Cauldon Lowe for the hill behind the quarries. Cauldon Low is used by several businesses in the area. Christiansen and Miller use Caldon Low and as most of the references are to the quarry not the hill or the village of Cauldon, I've used Caldon Low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nthep (talk • contribs) 14:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Friargate

I've amended the link to read Derby Friargate (which is due to be written) to distinguish it from the main Midland/LMS station. 213.78.117.229 17:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

G

This was nominated for Good Article status, but fails to meet the criteria on a number of points. First of all there are no references. Second, the History section starts with bullet points rather than prose and so is not well written. Also large number of one/two sentence paragraphs are not good writing. Finally, please consider whether the list of lines is really necessary. If you think it is I'd at least suggest putting it in a nicely formatted table. Worldtraveller 16:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:North Staffordshire Railway/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Comments:

1. Can an infobox be added to the article, as standard with most railroad company articles?

   added 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

2. The lead of the article is very short, Per WP:LEAD, the lead is supposed to be a sufficient summary of what is presented in the article.

   extended 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

3. "to be brought into the area and for fragile goods i.e. pottery to be taken away from the area" sounds awkward.

   changed punctuation 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

4. Combine the following sentences: "This act also vested the Trent & Mersey Canal in the NSR. Allocated capital was £1,500,000.", "The North Staffordshire Railway (Harecastle and Sandbach) Act[12] provided for the construction of the line from Harecastle to Sandbach. Allocated capital was £200,000.", "The North Staffordshire Railway (Churnet Valley Line) Act[13] authorised the construction of the line from North Rode to Burton, a branch from Tutbury to Willington Junction near Derby, and the line between Uttoxeter and Stoke. £1,200,000 of capital was allocated.." Fix the double period in the last one also.

   Fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

5. You start two consecutive sentences with "There". Can more variety in wording be used?

   Fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

6. "goods trains"? "freight trains" may work better here.

   done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

7. In sentence "Authorised in stages in 1864–5 it opened to traffic in 1873.", add comma after "1864-5".

   done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

8. Remove first two commas in sentence "The Cheadle Railway, was a small local company, constructed with NSR's backing, built at great cost over a period of twelve years."

   done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

9. Combine sentences "It was a short line from Cresswell to Cheadle. This line, only four miles long, included a very difficult tunnel."

   done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

10. "Macclesfield, Bollington and Marple railway", "railway" should be capitalized.

    done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

11. Citation needed for "As a company with only a small route mileage the NSR made extensive use of running powers and in exchange granted running powers to other companies."

    added 18:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

12. "several proposal": "proposal" should be plural.

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

13. "However it recover": "recover" should be "recovered".

    done 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

14. "the NSR early decided"? Sounds awkward.

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

15. "Stoke railway works were opened in 1849.[47] capable of producing locomotives (from 1864 onwards[48]) to carriages, wagons and other equipment.": Change first period to comma.

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

16. Citation needed for "Associated with the quarry was the 3 ft 6 in (1,067 mm) tramway that ran from the quarries to Froghall making the NSR one of very few companies operating lines of three different gauges."

    couldn't find direct ref so changed wording 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

17. The "Officers of the company" may look better suited as a table than a bulleted list.

    done although personal preference is for the bulleted list 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

18. "the then engineer" sounds awkward.

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

19. The sentence "The vast majority of these being tank engines of 2-4-0T or 0-6-0 arrangement, although a handful of 2-4-0 and 0-6-0 tender engines were constructed." sounds awkward.

    changed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

20. The sentence "They were used on routes such as the Stoke–Newcastle service but were not a success and although the vehicles survived until grouping they had been out of service for some time by then." sounds wordy.

    changed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

21. Citation needed for "Four engines under construction at Stoke in 1923 were completed and also added to the LMS stock."

    cited 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

22. The sentence "Coaching stock was originally claret[77] but in 1875 was changed to Victoria Brown, the same red brown colour as Longbottom had the motive power painted, and white (except for branch line trains) with gold and blue lining." sounds awkward.

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

23. Combine the sentences "Adams changed the livery to Madder Lake in 1903 to match the locomotives. The lining became yellow and red."

    fixed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

24. The sentence "Early wagons had dumb buffers and were of low capacity e.g. typical open wagons were only of 4 long tons (4.1 t) capacity." sounds awkward.

    changed 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

25. I would suggest moving Template:North Staffordshire Railway RDT farther up in the article to be more prominent.

    done 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

26. There are many sentences in the article that need commas to separate clauses. I would suggest carefully proofreading the article.

    let's say an attempt made :) 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

27. There are a lot of one and two sentence paragraohs throughout the article. These should be combined with other longer paragraphs.

    done 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am placing the article on hold. Dough4872 (talk) 23:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC) : All noted, thanks. Will deal with the remainder, next week when I have the source material to hand. NtheP (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

All addressed, please let me know if any more is required. NtheP (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

There are still citation needed tags in the article, these need citations added to them. Also, the logo in the infobox should not be a thumbnail. Also, I am a little concerned with the width of the map. Is there any way this can be fixed? Dough4872 (talk) 15:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Can't reduce the map width any further without completely redoing it to make it a single text column which would double the length of the map at least. Width was one of the reasons it was originally at the bottom of the article. Fixed logo width NtheP (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so we still need the missing citations added and the logo in the infobox fixed. Dough4872 (talk) 18:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

All addressed NtheP (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I will now pass the article. Dough4872 (talk) 00:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Diagram is wrong

The rail diagram used to show the NSR routes should distinguish between open and closed routes. For instance Trentham Gardens has that has been closed since the 1960s, but according to this rail diagram it remains open along with the line that serves it. Wikipedia MoS states that routes that are now closed are marked as such. Besides as a rail enthusiast I want to see what was lost and what remains open. This map, which shows everything is open, does not make it clear and does not help the understanding of the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.23.213 (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)