Talk:Northern Bank robbery

Loyalists

That loyalist intelligence comment, sums up very well the reasons why the PIRA were generally blamed dispite a lack of overall evidence. I'm readding the comment, as it is not POV it is not only factual (look at the casualty numbers) and the general opinion it conforms to the articles about the loyalist 'groups'. SCVirus 05:10, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I've added a police source for the assertion that loyalists weren't up to the task; can you find some opinion pieces mocking loyalist bungling? "Many commentators" is one of those dreaded weasel terms. Demiurge 11:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Latest developments

Demiurge, thanks for the cleanups - most welcome. I'm trying to ensure the wiki is kept reasonably up to date.

Bank note picture

That picture does seem rather pointless doesn't it? There must be something better than a picture of the banknote to put here. Funny little guy 05:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

British?

There seem to be a few references in the article about the Northern Bank Robber being in Britain ("...biggest bank robbery in British history"). Just to clarify, although Northern Ireland is part of the UK, it is not part of Great Britain, maybe this should be changed? Alex 20:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find any references to "Britain" in the article as it now stands. The quote you provide as an example doesn't refer to "Britain" either - it refers to a nationality. So, just to clarify, although Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, it is British and therefore the particular sentence you refer to does not need to be changed. --Mal 12:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

British Isles (terminology) says "Britain = an informal term for Great Britain (in the political sense) and/or the United Kingdom." -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The above is patently untrue. Britain can not be used as a term to describe the North of Ireland. It is not an "informal term" rather it is an incorrect term.It is one of many terms regularly used by the unionist community when referring to the six counties and it is as delusional as using ulster or province. No part of Ireland is of britain or is british regardless of the constitutional position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Please sign your comments. Britain doesn't describe either the "North of Ireland" nor Northern Ireland. The facts tend to speak for themselves: although Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, it is British. "The North of Ireland" is, by the way, one of those "delusional" terms, as is "the six counties". As for using the name Ulster to apply to the place, you should be reminded that its not only unionists or "the unionist community" that gets things technically wrong (see Saor Uladh for an example). While it is technically incorrect to refer to the UK as "Britain", as that basically exludes islands and Northern Ireland, it remains fact that it is used as a short form. --Mal 12:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

British is a valid term being used to avoid an unneccesary use of words in what shouldn't be that much of a politically charged article, and one used by multiple media outlets in relation to the robbery - [1] [2] [3] [4]. Note that this isn't a carte blanche for use in any other article, but I really don't see the problem in this one. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

I think this introduction is rather short. I've extended it, trying to keep an NPOV and avoiding weasal words. Just the sheer scale of the robbery deserves a note, and a brief mention of the massive political controversy surrounding it. martianlostinspace 21:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

And in hindsight, I see that "Lapsed Pacifist" seems to be the culprit who ripped out the previously even longer 2 paragraph introduction. I may/may not revert to this, but Passed Lassafist did not discuss this at any rate. martianlostinspace 21:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Not Bank of England

The haul included £10m of uncirculated Northern Bank sterling banknotes While they do have sterling written on them they are NOT sterling as these notes are not acceptable in the rest of the UK. (They are currency notes, accepted currency not legal tender.) 16:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed that Northern Irish bank notes were acceptable in the rest of the UK, they just arn't as people rarely see them. Phalanxia 19:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

They ARE Sterling banknotes, but that does not mean that they are universally accepted throughout the sterling zone. -- Arwel (talk) 20:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Notes printed in Northern Ireland ARE Stirling and ARE acceptable in the rest of the UK Dionysus99 11:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Northern Irish notes are legal tender throughout the UK. Many may not accept them as they don't know them, but they are legally acceptable Sterling tender. Ben W Bell talk 21:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. They are 110% not legal tender throughout the UK. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, not the "legal tender" red herring again. "Legal tender" does not mean what most people think it does - read the article for details. Northern Irish notes are not legal tender anywhere, neither are Scottish notes, and Bank of England notes are only legal tender in England and Wales. The acceptability of notes is an issue completely separate from "legal tender". -- Arwel (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NorthernBankNI20.jpg

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Northern Bank robbery/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs) 20:16, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Having an initial read-through now. Will post some comments tonight and revisit tomorrow or over the weekend. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:16, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Prose/MoS:

• Chris Ward was taken from the house in County Down and driven to Poleglass "the house"? You haven't previously introduced Ward or a house so this is confusing. Do you mean from his house?

• the house is the County Down home mentioned in the previous sentence, I agree "his house" is better so changed Mujinga (talk) 15:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• The link on "heist" to List of heists in the United Kingdom is an Easter egg and potentially confusing. It's not where I expected the link to go.

• i did that because heist is a disambig page. is it that surprising to go to a list? i could just take it out and put the link as a "see also" instead i suppose Mujinga (talk) 15:35, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• Why Northern Bank sterling notes which were used and not just "used sterling notes" or "used Northern Bank sterling notes"?

• sure could switch in "used Northern Bank sterling notes". actually now I'm wondering if "sterling" is redundant when the figure is given in pounds Mujinga (talk) 15:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• was himself arrested I know what you're getting at but "himself" is redundant here (it would only be useful if he was the one making the arrests)
• Perhaps explain the relationship between Sinn Fein and the IRA for the uninitiated?

• ha! i was hoping not to, it's such a minefield! i'll have a think on that one Mujinga (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• i've hopefully clarified things in Northern_Bank_robbery#Initial_responses Mujinga (talk) 10:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• Suggest introducing Martin McGuinness on first mention.

• i believe he is linked twice in the lead and "initial responses" Mujinga (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• Cunningham avoided imprisonment on account of his age How old was he?

• 65 and the source says it was a factor, but i've just removed it Mujinga (talk) 15:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• alleging it had been improperly processed How so?

• brought more into line with source Mujinga (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• Maybe explain the relevance of the City bonds robbery in the see also?

• if i put List of heists in the United Kingdom there then i could remove City bonds robbery Mujinga (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Breadth of coverage:

• A quick Google search turned up at least one book not currently cited: Chris Moore, Ripe for the Picking: The Inside Story of the Northern Bank Robbery.

• sadly out of print and not on gbooks, added to "further reading" Mujinga (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• £27.92 on Amazon. Admittedly a little steep. The GA criteria don't say anything about comprehensiveness or thoroughness of research so I don't think it's an issue at this level but if you were interested in taking this to FAC you would struggle to meet 1c. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:58, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• This news article suggests there was fallout from the robbery not mentioned here.

• wow thanks, that's not something i came across, that's very interesting and i'll attempt to work it in Mujinga (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• added the murder and its repercussions to the legacy section

Illustrations:

• I think you need more discussion of the banknote and a more detailed caption for the image to satisfy WP:NFCC#8.

• the fact that the robbery caused this particular note to be taken out of circulation is for me a justification for its inclusion, I'll try to emphasise that more then Mujinga (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• I know it's difficult to illustrate articles like this. Are there any other images that might be useful? Photos of people involved or mentioned, for example?

• Yeah I did have a good look but I can try again, would be great to get someone. Well, there are pics of Hugh Orde and the politicians but they are only tangentially related. Mujinga (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• i've added one pic of Hugh Orde, another of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, see what you think Mujinga (talk) 10:21, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the GA criteria can be comfortably satisfied with just a little bit more work. There are other things I might pick up on if this were an FAC, but with a little more work still it could meet that standard. Excellent work, and I look forward to revisiting in a few days. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Hiya thanks for taking this on, I should be able to answer your comments in the next days, will ping when done, cheers Mujinga (talk) 23:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi HJ Mitchell I've answered everything now, please let me know what you think Mujinga (talk) 11:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Excellent work. Although there's more that could be done if you wanted to take it further, I believe the GA criteria are satisfied. Passing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 16:03, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that a bank robbery nearly derailed the Northern Ireland peace process? Source: sentence in text - "Less than two weeks later, the Northern Bank robbery again enflamed tensions since despite the denials of Sinn Féin, the IRA was blamed by Ahern and Blair for the heist", reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20050430205443/http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=128502005
  • ALT1:... that after the Northern Bank robbery, the bank was compelled to replace all of its £10, £20, £50 and £100 notes? Source: sentence in text: "The Northern Bank announced soon after the heist that it would replace its £10, £20, £50 and £100 notes; the new banknotes would have different colours, new logos and altered serial numbers", reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20070519123830/http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1233&id=268242005

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Priscilla Jana

Improved to Good Article status by Mujinga (talk). Self-nominated at 15:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC).

• Y Article is long enough (17134 characters), is a GA, nominated in time (became GA on 29 November, nominated 4 December), and article is within policy
• Y Both hooks are short enough, interesting, in the article, and well cited. Both hooks are also neutral point of view, which is especially important for ALT0 which deals with a controversial subject area
• Y QPQ done
• Overall, this nomination passes, congratulations. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Alleged coalition collapse never happened

When Gerry Adams denied that the IRA were involved in any way, this caused the Sinn Féin coalition with the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) which was ruling Northern Ireland to collapse (this is referring to the killing in 2015, not the 2005 robbery)

Neither the Belfast Telegraph nor the Irish Times support that assertion. The UUP did withdraw from government and went into opposition, but as that article makes clear in order for the power-sharing government (the coalition referred to in the original sentence) to collapse the DUP would need to withdraw from government too (there can be no government in Northern Ireland without either nationalist or unionist representation). Peter Robinson did later resign (which threatened "to collapse the Northern Ireland assembly for the first time since 2007" as did several other DUP minister (triggering a lengthy in-out farce of resignations and reappointments), but Robinson was replaced by Arlene Foster and the Assembly continued until the 2016 Northern Ireland Assembly election. FDW777 (talk) 12:32, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the error, I've fixed it I hope, see what you think Mujinga (talk) 15:34, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Much improved, although I'd be tempted to expand it slightly as it was a bigger political crisis than just the UUP, as it did involve the DUP first minister resigning. Obviously as it's ten years after the robbery and involving several degrees of separation this article doesn't need to go into the crisis in excruciating detail. FDW777 (talk) 19:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Please feel free to add another sentence if you like. It is difficult knowing how much additional information to give in a case like this, since whilst it certainly is worth mentioning (as pointed out by the GA reviewer), having read into it a bit more I'm not sure how much the Davison murder was related to Northern Bank since McGuigan seems to have had a longstanding personal grudge against him. Mujinga (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)