Talk:Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory

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Claims of Greek contact

https://dnaconsultants.com/cherokees-spoke-greek-came-east-mediterranean/. This source contains information from books, I can add more sources about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.188.36 (talk) 20:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Don't bother, it's fringe nonsense. There's no way we can use it and it's been discussed before elsewhere. Doug Weller talk 10:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

If you notice, in the paragraph of the article that talks about the possible Middle Eastern origin, there is a reference about a self-published book. The above source refers to Gloria Farley's self-published book "In plain sight". Search for the book and use it in another, new paragraph of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.188.36 (talk) 11:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Removals

This article should have everything that isn't verifiable deleted. It appears there is too much personal connection between whomever created certain sections of this article and the subject, especially parts needing citation. The one statement that looks legit about the Northern Cherokee Recognition Day states that they received this recognition from three states but then only lists two states and doesn't cite where they got the information from. When I searched pretty deep I only found where the governor of Missouri, at the time, declared the day Northern Cherokee Recognition Day. That's it. Not three. One man.

Also, the section claiming that the Northern Cherokee Nation splintered into two or three groups is false. The group started out as The Lost Cherokee Nation of Arkansas and Missouri in the early 2000's. There was a schism and the group splintered into three groups, the Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory, which this article is named after, the Northern Cherokee Nation and the Sac River/White River Bands of the Chickamauga Cherokee Nation Inc. All three groups claim Cherokee heritage because they want federal money to fund their programs and gambling rights but they can't produce tangible evidence to back up their claims. My information comes from the Cherokee Nation and the Cherokee Phoenix. You can read one such article here[1]. I believe these parts need to be removed and, if needed, a statement made in the article saying that the origins of the group start with "The Lost Cherokee Nation of Arkansas and Missouri" if we are going to be completely objectionable. The Cherokee Phoenix is a verifiable journalistic and news organization.Tsistunagiska (talk) 13:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Some of my original assertions above are off-based, slightly as I have researched further. I believe a good article can be written and notability for all three affiliated organizations/splinters proved with a slight title change.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:18, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 9 September 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. BD2412 T 02:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory → Northern Cherokees – This is a semi-procedural nomination. Several editors have suggested that moving the article to this title will allow a greater scope to be covered, as well as add additional sources to cement the topic's notability that cannot be used in the existing narrow focus. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi, Natty4bumpo, Athanasius1, Dennisthe2, Bearian, Edward321, DGG, Theseeker4, and JohninDC: I tagged each person that responded to the AfD for this article so as to seek your input on the move requested. This is NOT a discussion on the notability of the article's subject(s). That has been established. This is primarily to discuss and come to a consensus on the move in order to further improve notability and allow for more information to be included in an impartial way through a re-write/edit of the article.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:36, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

• OK - I am fine with the move. Thank you for pinging me. Bearian (talk) 19:24, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
• OK with me also. DGG ( talk ) 20:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
• I'm adamantly against the move. The current title has the distinction of being the actual full legal name of the organization in question and moving it to the title suggested would imply and support the group's claims. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

@Natty4bumpo: If what you want is three separate articles instead of one then that will be written. Each organization relates to each other and calls themselves "Northern Cherokee" yet also calls themselves by three different names and says they are separate but related to the other legally named organizations. It's a convoluted mess and we are trying to bring context to it. The legal name for this organization is NCNOLT but the article lists an alternate name as NCN which is untrue. The NCN is a separate legal entity. The NCNOLT is also not a Non-profit; NCN is. No one is supporting their claims here and moving it does not support their claims. Their notability is in claiming something they are not. As the article currently is, that is not brought out in a fair and truthful way.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a specific organization with a formal name. Shortening it or deviating from would just create confusion. According to the List of unrecognized tribes in the United States, eight different groups across several states use the name "Northern Cherokee." Yuchitown (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Yuchitown

@Yuchitown: Per each sites home page that list is incorrect. The NCN has a current homepage so, clearly they have not split into three groups. The NCN, NCNOLT and Sac/White River Band groups came from one entity. Only the NCN is a 503c Non-profit. They all, along with the "Western Cherokee Nation of Arkansas and Missouri" have been embroiled in fraudulent activities and bringing them into one article together and calling them what they refer to themselves colloquially will allow us to expound on that and accurately display all information from a neutral POV.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:18, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

There's also the Northern Cherokee Tribe of Indiana, which has nothing to do with this group. There is no good reason to change the name of this article. Yuchitown (talk) 19:34, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Yuchitown

The Cherokee Nation, many may know them as something close to reputable, has referred to these groups as "Northern Cherokees" and that is where the idea came from to join the three rather than write three separate articles. There is a notable reason behind it. So, in your opinion there is no good reason which you are entitled to believe. I just wanted to clarify that.Tsistunagiska (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that the article already combines and intertwines the history of all three and supposes that it is one entity, NCNOLT. That is NOT the case. Grey Elk is the "chief" of the NCN while Beverly Baker Northup is the "chief" of the NCNOLT. The Sac/White River band, calling themselves "Chicamauga Cherokee", have a "chief" I am sure. It's very convoluted but these three declare a common link. These three claim they are part of the "Green Band" of Cherokee. That is notable enough to link them together and discuss all three in one article. Let me be perfectly clear, I would rather have none of it on Wikipedia. But it is here and there are enough sources for it to be notable. I just want to make sure it's neutral and shares all points of view. Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:43, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose This is an organization, not an ethnic group. I am not certain if there is a sub-group within the Cherokee people who are identified by their culture as “Northern” Cherokee, and we definitely don’t want to be making up an imaginary tribal group. If there is such a group, these folks aren’t it. Montanabw^(talk) 06:53, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Montanabw:The Cherokee Nation referred to them as "Northern cherokees", not to give them creedence but to label them. The article as it currently is does not talk about the organization but is a mix of three organizations crammed into one article and claiming it is one. The Cherokee Nation is completely for heritage groups but not those fraudulently claiming government rights over the Cherokee tribe and receiving monies they are not entitled to. We, being editors here, are merely putting forward the idea of renaming this article to then clarify the three organizations mixed up here and expound upon their notability in fraudulent activities as well as claims to be something which two of the three federally recognized tribes say they arent. There is only one Cherokee ethic group so that is an irrelevant point. No one is claiming they are a new ethnic group or should be.Tsistunagiska (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

It astounds me that so many editors here will comment on an article while knowing so little about the subject or doing any research on it's validity. This article is full of mixed information, some relevant to NCNOLT and some that are straight up not directly related to the subject organization because it is about separate organizations. They call themselves "Northern cherokees", the Cherokee Nation calls them "Northern cherokees". If we elect to keep this article with the same name then I will be forced to gut it and remove everything that is falsely attributed and then create atleast two more articles about the other organizations, because if one is notable then the others are as well while each article will include a statement that the Cherokee Nation refers to each and all as "Northern cherokees".Tsistunagiska (talk) 07:46, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support I think we all know I support the move. It will still be about the organization mentioned but will include it's two other splinter organizations and the information within the article corrected to accurately talk about them as it relates to their notability. "Northern cherokees" was selected as the title because each organization is referred to, as a collective group and by a reputable tribal nation, as such. We could just as easily call them "Western cherokees" or "Green band cherokees" but I felt that was super confusing. My whole point is that the article written is not about the NCNOLT or the NCN or the Chicamauga Cherokee of Sac River and White River in Missouri and Arkansas (that's a mouthful). It combines all three into one and calls them the NCNOLT when the other two have NEVER called themselves the NCNOLT.Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The scope of the article should either be reduced to reflect the current name of the article or another precise name should be chosen to reflect the content. "Northern Cherokees" is very broad and, for instance, could easily be construed to mean Cherokees who fought the Union side on the Civil War. That is what appears when one searches "Northern Cherokees" in Google Scholar, not this amorphous network of nonprofit organizations. Encyclopedias reflect what is published in secondary sources, not the opinions of individual editors. Yuchitown (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Yuchitown

@Yuchitown: You are completely ignoring the fact that multiple sources refer to them as "Northern cherokees". It is not my opinion. My opinion is that an article should have never been written in the first place. I have made that perfectly clear so don't put words in my mouth please. I am simply speaking to the validity of the information within the article and that, if this organization passes the scrutiny of notability by Wikipedia then the other groups who call themselves and have been referred to as "Northern cherokees" also pass notability and should be included. You can't pick and choose while being neutral. The desire here is to combine them, since a lot of the information for all three is already included, and give each equal representation while noting their official and unofficial names. It will also be pointed out that each of these groups has been included in articles about fraudulent activity in their claims to be Cherokee while being unable to prove said connection. They also share a common "ancestry" according to each group.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

If you take one second to look a the Google Scholar link I furnished, you'll see that most uses of the term "Northern Cherokees" in the literature refer to Cherokees fighting in the American Civil War. Using the term for these various groups (the group in Indiana still hasn't been addressed) is misleading. Yuchitown (talk) 21:05, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Yuchitown

@Yuchitown: It can not stay with the current name because the current name is misleading and outright false. It is about all three organizations. I have done a Google search myself and the first 30 to 40 articles are about the NCN and NCNOLT, including this very wikipedia article. The Cherokee Nation refers to them as "Northern cherokees". They refer to themselves as "Northern cherokees" and even a google search immediately provides the most recent and relevant articles about the NCN and NCNOLT as "Northern cherokee". Just in case you are concerned with how I entered it, I copy and pasted exactly how you wrote it.Tsistunagiska (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Very few people in the general populace look up a subject by going to Google Scholar. You have to know your general audience even as an encyclopedia. You go to Google and put in "Northern Cherokee" and there you go. At least 30 articles all about the NCN, NCNOLT, Cherokee tribes in Missouri including the Chickamauga and Western Cherokee Nation as well as other groups. What makes these notable is the fact they are embroiled in fraudulent activity that has garnered the attention of the state and national government including having their licenses and non-profit status potentially revoked which is documented in several reputable news sources. Look, I would rather not even have an article on this organization. But that's over. Now we have to figure out how to make this article complete and leaving it as it currently is will only lead to further confusion and disillusionment with Wikipedia as a factual encyclopedia discussing notable topics from a neutral POV.Tsistunagiska (talk) 21:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose the group changed their name to Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory in 2014, why are you trying to use an older name the group doesn't use? Also, I don't see why the article can't include a brief mention, as currently is in the article, about the groups that splintered off. They can have their own individual pages but seems relevant to also mention them here as part of their origin stories. It's common in many tribes to have splinter off groups after a while, no need to pretend those tribes didn't share a connection at some point. oncamera 23:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History of the NCNOLT

So everyone knows, the NCNOLT is a splinter, not the original group. There was a rift between the NCN (original group) and the current leader of the NCNOLT. The leader left the NCN and started her own group. The Sac/White River Band of Chickamauga Cherokee tried to unite with the NCN but gave up hopes on that and even it had a split within itself after leaving the NCN. There are a total of four groups that are closely linked together. At least two are caught up in fraudulent activity. I will now go through and remove anything saying the NCN and NCNOLT are the same group and remove anything non-sourced. If anyone wants to pick up the pieces then by all means.Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The NCN is still an active group so it is disingenuous to include information related to them in an article that is not about them. Personally, I find groups like this offensive to my heritage but I was willing to work within the rules of Wikipedia. The article was written and is about a notable topic, however, the information contained is not entirely about the NCNOLT. I will point that out in the deletion records. If someone deems the NCN as notable and wants to write separate articles about them and the SAC/White River band then go ahead. I will be keeping all sources and written words on a sandbox for easy retrieval should you want it.Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)