Talk:Northern Virginia

[Untitled]

(1) Overall, I think this article is very poorly written. (2) There are some sweeping assertions without supporting evidence or persuasive arguments behind them. In particular: "Northern Virginia is not very religious. Religion plays minimal role in the lives of most people. It is a lot more secular compared to the rest of the state." While it's likely true that the population as a whole is more secular than the rest of Virginia as a whole, I doubt it's true that "religion plays a minimal role in the lives of most people."

I, for one, agree. As a contributor to many Virginia articles, I will take a whack at cleaning up some of the biased and unsubtantiated stuff. Anyone who has another take on this is a goood time to speak up. Please bring facts and sources. Vaoverland 03:26, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Geographic definition

Should N in Northern Virginia be capitalized?

That's how it is usually spelled, to then become NoVa.--Orange Mike 00:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Press articles never capitalize the 'n', but I believe the Census considers "Northern Virginia" to be a statistical area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Old Guard (talk • contribs) 01:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Geographic definition

Hi. I notice that the first part of this article currently defines Northern Virginia geographically. Is this a formal definition? That is, is it derived from an authority? --Takeel 02:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

If it's supposed to be the OMB definition, it's out of date. Doctor Whom 14:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late to this discussion, but as someone who's lived in Manassas his whole life and went to high school in Warrenton, I've always thought of the definition that's there now as pretty much accurate (except for maybe Stafford County, though it does makes sense). MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 04:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Northern Virginia is NOT the Northern Neck. Never was. Whoever added in that Northern Neck stuff needs to visit Virginia sometime. 138.162.128.52 (talk) 12:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Needs movement towards NPOV?

I believe that this article needs movement towards NPOV. To me, it reads mostly like a promotional piece. Does anyone else agree? --Takeel 15:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

really?

"Northern Virginia is widely considered to be more Northern in its culture than the rest of Virginia."Loodog 14:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, just ask anyone in Roanoke or Lynchburg about the state and you'll hear a completely different kind of Virginia. We're much more the melting pot of Virginia. For example, how many "Virginian" accents can you hear in Nova? I'm from Fauquier and I don't even have much of an accent. Although I do wonder that nothing is said about the tensions in Nova from having so many differing policies relating to growth and how that conflicts with prodominately rural areas that still exist. Kiki 16:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This is true even as far south as Charlottesville, where NoVa is sometimes recognized as something wholly unto itself.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I would call it the international part of Virginia, as people from around the US and world tend to go there rather than the rest of Virginia. That doesn't mean old Virginia is bad of course. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Old Guard (talk • contribs) .

"Old Virginia", eh? You might want to read this article just for starters. :) --Takeel 16:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not that old ;) --Old Guard 01:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

During the '06 midterms, a talking hea d referred to nova as a region "struggling valiantly to secede from the Confederacy." I'll try to find that for you // 3R1C 17:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, melting pot (not diverse enough to be a salad bowl) is a good description, and so is Mid-Atlantic, either way I fixed it with an even more appropriate term. --Old Guard 01:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Update: someone found a better word! --Old Guard 07:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations

"Fairfax County is the third-richest county in the nation with an outstanding public school system, including Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, an award-winning magnet school. Since the mid-1990s, Loudoun County has become known as America's fastest-growing county. It recently took Fairfax County's spot as the second-richest county in the country." Is there a source for this, I have search numerous listings from the US Census Bureau, and have not found any that have 2nd and 3rd; I think the 2003 estimate has 3rd and 5th, either way if someone doesn't come up with some source I'll just have to say they are among the 5 richest counties in the nation (measured by median household income), and reword the rest. --JVittes 05:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

    Yes, there are numerous references that were published in the Washington Post. Adctvmonkey 01:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Added citation needed for business district ranking. George Bounacos (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Education

While I understand listing TJHSST as a notable high school, the section is starting to become a list of high schools in Fairfax County, which I don't think is in the best interest of the article, I think we need to trim the list of high schools here, as it is getting to be quite a list alreay. What do other people here think? --JVittes 07:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

So I guess it has been decided that we should continue on the current path? I see that another high school has been added. I really have to say that I don't think that it is the best course of action, and that triming the list would be best. I don't see anyone else commenting, but I guess actions speak louder than words. --JVittes 23:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is probably not a place for lists of schools. I recommend removing the school list, just as I removed the ethnicity list. --Takeel 14:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Graphic

This is a graphic made by the Washington Post that would be perfect for the article in articlating the differences between Northern VA, and the rest of VA. I hestiate uploading the graphic though due to copyright issues. What do you guys think?

Zidel333 16:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. There's no way it would survive copyvio. // 3R1C 17:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There is, however, nothing to preclude any Wikipedian with a graphing program from creating a similar graphic and downloading it under a good license, with citation to the source(s) of the statistics in question. --Orange Mike 00:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the graphic shown, the Washington-Baltimore-Northern VA OMB designated area includes Stafford and Spotsylvania counties and the independent city of Fredericksburg, however they are not listed for inclusion as part of Northern Virginia as defined in this article. Are these counties and city part of NoVA? Asacan 06:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

NOVA

not a joke...plenty of us would willingly give the cesspool that is northern virginia away to dc, maryland, or the north in general. it is unlike the rest of the state and we want nothing to do with it. WillC (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, how does that help article? Great to stay positive.... Zidel333 (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

They provide the most revenue for the state, and move ahead instead of looking back. Certainly all Virginians outside NOVA can't be that ignorant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.19.51 (talk) 01:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Add the actual historical definition of Northern Virginia

Everyone,

I came across the page while doing some other wiki-tasks. I was shocked, but not surprised at the definition given here of "Northern Virginia". FYI, Lord Fairfax is buried in Winchester, Virginia next to the old Anglican church he attended. He lived just on the other side of the Blue Ridge in Clarke County. King Charles II of England defined what Northern Virginia is (see new paragraph in the main article.

This is basic Virginia Standards-Of-Learning knowledge. Many folks in "NoVA" often are not natives and don't know what Northern Virgnia really is, often thinking, perhaps, it ends where the traffic jam stops at Haymarket or Centreville.

Even Colonel John S. Mosby knew what Northern Virginia was, and his center of operations was north of Marshall, Virginia ... smack in the heart of Northern Virginia.

Grayghost01 (talk) 02:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

modern definitions of Northern Virginia

Building upon work I did with a similar problem in defining the Hampton Roads region, I have tried to expand and explain why the areas the article describes as Northern Virginia vary so much. To help do this, I moved the existing history section up. I am pretty comfortable with the facts as added being accurate, but we still need better sources. A lot of the political back story which I have added came from other articles. Hope this all helps improve the article. Vaoverland (talk) 08:03, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, much better, you have done an excellant job. I noticed the other so-called "regions" defined in the Virginia menu, and some seem a bit "hokie", no pun intended. The northern neck peninsula is deemed a "Northern Neck" region of its own. This implies some folks don't understand the geographical term "neck". These various websites are mostly local adverstising, and have simply made arbitrary definitions, like this: "The Northern Neck of Virginia is a peninsula bounded by the Potomac River on the north, the Chesapeake Bay on the east, the Rappahannock River on the South, and the city of Fredericksburg on the west". Jedediah Hotchkiss wrote the 3-part volume on Virginia in Confederate Military History and does a much better job of defining the regions of Virginia. That's a valid source for some of this. But the land grants need to be considered as well.Grayghost01 (talk) 00:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Citations on Northern Virginia

Tedickey,

I added a reference for a complete paragraph at the end of the last sentence. This was an historical explanation of the Northern Neck of Virginia, and the land grant of Fairfax/Culpeper as well as the origin of the Fairfax line and Fairfax Stone. Without consulting the reference, you applied citation-tags throughout the paragraph. Please check and consult the references in the future before making the assumption that something is not cited, when it is. Regardless, per wiki guidance, your call for citations would create an over-citation problem anyway. Thanks,Grayghost01 (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The reader shouldn't have to be puzzled, looking at apparently POV-statements to go and purchase a copy of Johnston's booklet (probably not in many libraries) to determine that they're from that source. By the way, citing page numbers is also something that the reader expects, in case the source is more than a couple of pages. Tedickey (talk) 10:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - not even booklet. The only places google shows it mentioned are two (which are advertisements), saying that it is a map. For reference (though I suppose the URLs will not last more than a few days):

• Community Bulletin Board: Map Signing, The Winchester Star, September 30, 2008, retrieved 2008-09-30
• Hileman, Maria (September 30, 2008), A drawn-out history — Local mapmaker’s latest project follows Fairfax’s claims in the ‘Northern Neck’, The Winchester Star, retrieved 2008-09-30

Considering it further, I'm curious whether the map is a reliable source - see Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The first question is "who" is the Winchester Historical Society (besides Johnston), and the second is whether it points to the actual sources as requested, along with references to historians or whether it provides the author's interpretation only. Since the map is not widely available (send $10 to ...), the reader is unlikely to be aware of its content. Tedickey (talk) 11:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a map-brochure. I possess a physical copy. It is for sale in the Museum of the Shenandoah Valley. Extensively throughout it's writeup, five map insets, three photos and one painting, it cites 13 references. When citing references in WIKI, we are not required to list all the references listed within the reference. It states "Researched, compiled and drawn by Wibur S. Johnson". The section entitled "Defining the Northern Neck Proprietary" has a primary reference of:

• Brown, Stuart E., Jr., Virginia Baron, The Story of Thomas 6th Lord Fairfax, Chesapeake Book Co., Berryville, VA, 1965.

Citations come from page 94, 95, and 100 of that reference. This is not a disputed topic. I don't know of any Virginian historians debating what the Northern Neck Proprietary was, or what the land owned by Lord Fairfax was. This information is fairly well out in the open, generally available, and a good weekend at the UVA library in Charlottesville, or the Handley Library in Winchester would overload anyone interested in the history of northern Virginia, and it's original land grant owners, and what the boundaries were. Plus the drive to the Fairfax Stone is another easy verification. Johnson does a good job covering the Hume Line, the Fairfax Line, the line of the Potomac confluence and Forks of Rappahannock, the Brown-Bauer Line, and the Boundary Commmission Line of 1910, as well as Marker No.1. If you telephone the Museum of the Shenandoah Valley http://www.shenandoahmuseum.org/contact/ you can obtain a copy of the reference. Wiki does not require purely books for references.Grayghost01 (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - I can either (a) use you as a reliable source, or (b) the newspaper. I'm afraid that you don't qualify as a reliable source (nor will I fix the typos in your reply). Have a nice day. Tedickey (talk) 10:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

This article needs cleanup.

Yes I put up the {{cleanup}}template.I think it is clear to everyone involved that this article needs cleanup. Several sections violate WP: NPOV, and I think that this article is also poor in fluidity. The article is being immediately put on the to do list of the Northern Virginia Task Force. Does anyone have recommendations on how the article may be improved?226Trident (talk) 04:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"Source of the name"???

Am I the only person who thinks that it is ridiculous to have a section explaining why the area is called "Northern Virginia"? I really do think that the reader can sort of discern why that may be! BLM Platinum (talk) 03:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Winchester is farther north. Also, Frederick County is about as far north as you can get in Virginia. ;) --2610:20:2018:100:0:0:100:4 (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Updates to 21st century politics?

Seems like this section was last updated in 2011. Any interest in adding in some informatino on the 2012 Presidential election or the 2014 midterms? Connstable (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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Outdated

Can someone update this Wiki article? I'm happy to as well but, as a newbie, anything I edit gets quickly removed.

In particular, the population counts are a decade old and the first map - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia#/media/File:Northern_Virginia_-_Location.png - is using the Office of Management and Budget definitions from 2003, even though the boundaries have been changed twice since, in 2013 and 2018.

In particular, what needs to change is: 1. Rappahannock and Madison Counties are now in the Washington D.C. Metro Area, pursuant to OMB Bulletin No. 18-04: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Bulletin-18-04.pdf. If the key posit of this article is that NOVA is the part of Virginia within the Washington MSA - or Washington-Baltimore CSA - then map I linked above needs to show Rappahannock and Madison in red. It also needs to remove King George County, which was removed from the metro and CSA in 2013.

2. "With 2.8 million residents."

The number above is quite vague. I think this needs a demographic section, holding the 2018 boundaries fixed in previous decades.

In other words, the counties in Virginia that are currently part of the Washington MSA or the Washington-Baltimore CSA have had the following sum populations: 1900: 188,919 1910: 194,731 1920: 206,504 1930: 229,205 1940: 298,588 1950: 488,945 1960: 788,162 1970: 1,118,064 1980: 1,357,387 1990: 1,805,091 2000: 2,253,251 2010: 2,794,957 2017 Est.: 3,119,182

3. "(about a third of the Commonwealth)" is quite vague.

Here are the exact numbers using the population counts above: 1900: 10.19% 1910: 9.45% 1920: 8.94% 1930: 9.46% 1940: 11.15% 1950: 14.73% 1960: 19.87% 1970: 24.05% 1980: 25.39% 1990: 29.17% 2000: 31.83% 2010: 34.93% 2017 Est.: 36.83%

4. The intro to this page is quite informal. It's just a picture of Tysons with the outdated map below it. I think a better approach is to model it off the Southern California Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California. There is the title, a collage of photos [I'm happy to supply photographs of the area I personally took], a map of the region - incl. shaded areas like Orange County, VA and King George County, VA that are not formally within the Washington MSA/CSA but have communities that largely commute to D.C. Then there's the largest city [Arlington CDP] and largest incorporated city [Alexandria].

5. Defining "Northern Virginia" This entire section is devoid of any attribution or citation. The real fact is that there is no official Government definition of Northern Virginia. I think this section should say that and then state that "although the Government does not formally delineate Northern Virginia, a common definition is the counties within Virginia that are part of the Washington Metro Area, or the Washington-Baltimore Combined Statistical Area." and then source it to OMB Bulletin No. 18-04

6. The Crime section is very old and should be updated/removed. Citing to 2009 statistics is a bit odd. The rest of the Demographics section can reiterate data points I posted above. Also happy to number crunch anything that needs to be updated on this front.

7. I can calculate presidential election numbers for the region if desired. The current Wiki is a hodgepodge of political data.

Happy to hear anybody's thoughts on this. RainbowCrown (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)