Talk:Northwestern South Asia

Map

@GreekApple123: This map seems unsourced. I mean, are there sources that supports inclusion of the Uttarakhand and Gujarat within Northwest India? I believe there are sources for Punjab, Haryana, Kashmir, Jammu, Rajasthan, and even westernmost Uttar Pradesh, but haven't come across anything mentioning Uttarakhand and Gujarat. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I did not add that map, it was added during the following edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northwestern_South_Asia&diff=prev&oldid=1179077081

I would agree that the map seems over-inclusive, and I have no problems if you want to modify/remove it from the article as you see fit. GreekApple123 (talk) 15:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, I've removed it for being unsourced. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Northwest India

@Fram, the source I added does refer to the same place as "Northwest South Asia" and then later on as "Northwest India", confirming that they're the same place historically. It says at one point: "First was the military expansion of the Arab Muslim Empire, which reached its territorial apogee under the Abbasids, spreading as far as Transoxiana and northwest India", and then later says "In rapid succession the army also gained control of most of North Africa, Spain, Anatolia, and Sindh (the northwestern corner of the Indian subcontinent)." Keep in mind that the "Indian subcontinent" and "South Asia" can basically be thought of as synonyms. GreekApple123 (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR, you are taking disparate mentions and inferring that they refer to the same thing, and that they match the definition given here (e.g. including Afghanistan). E.g. Afghanistan is not a part of the Indian Subcontinent, and India is not a synonym of the Indian Subcontinent either, although it should need to be for your above interpretation to somewhat work. If "Sindh (the northwestern corner of the Indian subcontinent)" is correct, then Afghanistan and large parts of Pakistan are not part of your claim, even though they are parts of Northwestern South Asia. So no, the two are not synonyms. Fram (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, that's fair enough. But is there enough there in my interpretation to at least mention in the article that NW South Asia and NW India are partially coterminous/related?... It's just, I just think there ought to be some place on Wikipedia exploring what the historical NW India was, what the historical meaning of NW India was, and detailing its connection to modern-day parts of South Asia/the Indian subcontinent. So if not in this article, then how would I go about doing that?

Also, you said "India is not a synonym of the Indian Subcontinent either", and I agree it is not entirely equivalent, but the two terms seem maybe 90% coterminous in historical times (i.e. modern-day Pakistan and Bangladesh were then seen as part of India, as evidenced by how we talk of the Greeks and Alexander the Great conquering parts of India rather than conquering Pakistan), which is the time period this discussion is about. GreekApple123 (talk) 19:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"Northwest India" is the historical name for the "Northwestern Indian subcontinent". In historical literature, we see that for example, that "Pakistan was created from the provinces in northwestern India". I think the term belongs in the article and has relevance here as a region encompassing Punjab, Rajasthan, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan. NishantXavier (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

But the article is about "Northwestern South Asia", not about "Northwestern Indian subcontinent". Fram (talk) 08:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I mean, it would seem rather frivolous to have to create a separate article to discuss the NW subcontinent if it only differs by the inclusion of Afghanistan, which presently is only 2% of South Asia's population. (Although perhaps an exception here is appropriate, as Afghanistan constitutes a larger portion when isolating NW S Asia specifically). (And now that I think about it, we would also have to isolate out parts of Pakistan as you said... Hmmm...)

Also, and this is anecdotal, I have noted what seems like a general Wikipedia consensus to have only one article for discussing any topic relating to both South Asia and the subcontinent (ie you will find a South Asian ethnic groups but not a separate "Indian subcontinent ethnic groups" article). So that is another thing which makes me hesitant to create a near-duplicate article for this topic, when it seems we could relatively easily accomodate a short mention of the region's significant level of coterminousness with the historical NW India, and when that is the only thing that is causing us to think of creating a separate article. GreekApple123 (talk) 14:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Just a note, I have gone ahead and created a separate article at Northwest India (pre-1947). GreekApple123 (talk) 14:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Two points

• Are there sources that mention Gujarat and Rajasthan as Northwestern states?
• Wouldn't it be wise to name this article Western South Asia instead since most of it is orthographically western and for the overlapping northern regions we already have this article. Also in parity with the articles Northern South Asia and Eastern South Asia? -

Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, another editor added Gujarat and Rajasthan as northwestern states, not me.
• I think it makes a lot of sense to keep it as Northwestern South Asia, honestly. Western South Asia to me would really be a separate article perhaps covering regions like Gujarat, Maharashtra, and maybe even as far south as Kerala; I doubt such an article would be necessary, though perhaps some common characteristics of the Western side of South Asia are that it received a greater influence from the Middle East, with Arab traders visiting Kerala and Gujarat as well as natural border-region influences in the northwestern subcontinent. But overall, I think Northwestern South Asia is its own natural article which focuses on covering the frontier of South Asia with West Asia, a place of intense conflict and synthesis between the two worlds. But for now, I have gone ahead and created a redirect from Western South Asia to this article.

GreekApple123 (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)