Talk:Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity

Requested move 8 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved(non-admin closure) Kostas20142 (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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National Association for Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgender People → FRI - The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity – The organization was renamed in 2016, ref. information in this article and Norwegian article of same https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fri_%E2%80%93_foreningen_for_kj%C3%B8nns-_og_seksualitetsmangfold. HH&2s02br4 (talk) 14:33, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• Question: Do we have any sources that provide a name for this organization in English? —BarrelProof (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Move to FRI – foreningen for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold, since we have no indication that this organization has a well-established name in English. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
• Answer: The organization is actively using the suggested English name, both as email signatures with Norwegian and English name included, and in communication in English. See example with both Norwegian and English name on page https://foreningenfri.no/initiativ/friminutt (where you will see the full English name used in the second to last paragraph). The suggested English name is well-established and actively used by the organization. Please therefore move to FRI - The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity. HH&2s02br4 (talk) 10:35, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. 1090 ghits for the old name as opposed to 54 for the new. [1] [2]. Maybe AfD as non-notable? But the alternative name suggested gets 12,700 [3] which is a bit more like it. Worth relisting perhaps. Andrewa (talk) 14:38, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion, part 2

Now that the deletion discussion has been closed as "Keep" we may want to reconsider the title of this article. The alternatives proposed so far are:

1. FRI – The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity
2. FRI – foreningen for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold
3. National Association for Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgender People (Norway) – the present title with "(Norway)" tacked on, as proposed at the AfD.

The present title was a translation of the former name LLH, and won't do now that the name has changed to FRI, which translates quite differently as "Association for gender and sexual diversity". On the choice between Options 1 and 2, the guideline nearest to helping appears to be Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties). If we go by the test "the title commonly used in English-language sources" the answer is LLH. However, that name was changed in 2016. One of the travel guides gives the full Norwegian name for LLH together with an English translation: the other travel guide and the Ashgate book give the Norwegian name only. This would argue for similar treatment of FRI, as in Option 2.

However, we also need to review whether the title should contain both the abbreviation and the expansion. Per Manual of Style [When] a given acronym has several expansions, none of which is the most prominent ... an article should be named with the spelled-out phrase and the acronym should be a disambiguation page... There are plenty of other candidates for the initials "FRI", so the solution seems to be to make the title of this page Foreningen for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold, with an extra entry in the disambiguation page Fri. Any thoughts?: Noyster (talk), 08:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Please note that "FRI" is not the abbreviation of Forening for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold. "FRI" simply means "FREE" in Norwegian, as in free to love anyone you choose. However, the organization uses "FRI" as a short form of the name, both in Norwegian and English. In time, FRI – The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity will work itself in to be the title commonly used in English-language sources. As the name change only happened in 2016, the amount of ghits for the new English name is low, and it is lower than the Norwegian name simply because the organization is Norwegian and publishes far more information online in Norwegian language. However, for a resource such as Wikipedia, it would make sense to use the full English name as title of the article, i.e. FRI – The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity, as this is the name used by the organization itself. Using the English name would also make it easier to find, as most non-Norwegian users would normally not search by words containing Norwegian letters, such as the ø in kjønns-. HH&2s02br4 (talk) 13:22, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

• I take the point that FRI is not an acronym in the normal sense. Although you say HH&2s02br4 that the English version of the full name is commonly used in English-language sources and is well-established and actively used by the organization you haven't in fact shown us sources to support these statements: unless you can do this I think our choice is FRI – foreningen for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold (per BarrelProof) or FRI (Norwegian organization), relying on the short name with minimum disambiguation. Either way, our title should reflect the current name, and the issue mentioned by Andrewa of web searches under other names can be handled using redirects: Noyster (talk), 11:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

• If "FRI" is merely a word formatted in all-capital letters rather than an acronym, then it seems to violate our guidelines against using "vanity" all-caps styling (MOS:TM, WP:AT/WP:TITLETM, MOS:ALLCAPS). Lots of organizations use all-caps formatting to try to stand out and look more important or distinctive, and we generally avoid letting them do that on Wikipedia. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

• Here are some sources to support my statement, showing that FRI – The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity is in common use. Search by gender diversity for each of these to see the name in use: On Human Rights Watch page https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/06/30/un-makes-history-sexual-orientation-gender-identity On U.S. Department of State page https://www.state.gov/globalequality/about/ On IARLJ - International Association of Refugee Law Judges European Chapter meeting agenda May 2016 in document http://www.iarlj.org/general/images/Oslo_2016/OsloAgenda_110516.pdf And on page with the international program for Oslo Pride on page https://www.oslopride.no/international/ As you can see from these examples, "FRI" is included and is part of the English language name of the organization. HH&2s02br4 (talk) 08:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• OK thanks, I'm convinced now that the English words have currency in external sources and are presented fairly consistently. There is variation in the punctuation mark, the capitalisation of "The", and the spelling of "organisation". The four sources you quote yield:

• FRI: the Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity (state.gov)
• FRI, the Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity (hrw.org)
• FRI - The Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity (iarlj.org)
• FRI – The Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity (oslo pride)

If we regard "FRI" as a word and not an Initialism, I guess we'll have to style it as "Fri" (analogous to groups like Liberty or Mind). The other issue is whether the English words are part of the name or a description, which would lead us to Fri (Norwegian organisation). We ought nevertheless to go ahead with the move in some form: I propose Fri – The Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity: Noyster (talk), 10:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Good to hear I am making some progress in convincing you. As far as "Fri" vs. "FRI" goes, I don't know what more to say to persuade you that the correct spelling would be FRI - The Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity. As I have said time and time again, this is the spelling the organization itself uses, and I have given examples of that above from articles. If I was able to attach an email as example, I could send you the signature block used by the organization's Communications Advisor, showing that members of management in the organization all use both the Norwegian name; FRI - Foreningen for kjønns- og seksualitetsmangfold and the English name; FRI - The Norwegian Organization for Sexual and Gender Diversity in all written communication. This is the official answer and the correct spelling. If I'm not able to convince you, then please do not call the article Fri (Norwegian organisation) as this would not be descriptive enough to enable users to tell which organization we are talking about.HH&2s02br4 (talk) 07:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The article title policy tells us not to go by "the spelling the organization itself uses", but you do have a get-out clause HH&2s02br4 where it allows use of the trademarked spelling when it is demonstrably the most common usage in [independent] sources..., as you have shown to be the case here. OK, I'm going back to WP:Requested moves with your proposed title. Sorry this has been such a drawn-out process: Noyster (talk), 22:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 30 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure). Yashovardhan (talk) 10:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

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National Association for Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgender People → FRI – The Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity – to follow the organisation's complete change of name, per talk page discussion, which now includes evidence of this or very similar names used in multiple independent English-language sources : Noyster (talk), 22:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:32, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: "FRI" is not an abbreviation. It is merely a word (synonymous with "FREE") written in all-capital letters, so using that in all-caps it seems to violate our guidelines against using "vanity" all-caps styling (MOS:TM, WP:AT/WP:TITLETM, MOS:ALLCAPS). Lots of organizations use all-caps formatting to try to stand out and look more important or distinctive, and we generally avoid letting them do that on Wikipedia. If "FRI" was an English word, we wouldn't write it in all-caps, so we shouldn't do it just because it's not in English. As MOS:TMRULES says, "avoid: TIME, KISS, ASUS, The PLAYERS Championship" —BarrelProof (talk) 04:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

But as pointed out just above, the article title policy allows use of the trademarked spelling when it is demonstrably the most common usage in [independent] sources..., which is the case in the four English-language sources quoted here: Noyster (talk), 11:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

We're looking for English-language independent reliable sources. If I understand what sources you're referring to, some of them don't seem especially independent. They are mostly promotional. None of them are something like BBC or some other reliable news organization. In the absence of a substantial number of really objective third-party sources, I would suggest not using the word in all-caps letters. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• Move to Norwegian Organisation for Sexual and Gender Diversity. This form has been used as the English name by a number of international organisations and avoids using a marketing gimmick. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removed two unsupported non neutral sections.

Two sections linked associated the organization with criminal actions. These had not been corroborated by legal institutions 166.205.147.84 (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)