Talk:Novo Mesto

Mesto or mesto

Is it Novo mesto or Novo Mesto? --Palnatoke 08:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

In the Slovenian Wikipedia it's indeed written Novo mesto, or rather Nôvo mésto. Punkmorten 11:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

True, Novo mesto but Nova Gorica! --andrejj 13:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Even though Novo mesto is unquestionably the correct spelling in the Slovenian language, shouldn't it be spelled Novo Mesto here in order to conform to basic English capitalization rules? After all, the word is a proper noun, and I can't think of a single multi-word place name anywhere with significant words that aren't capitalized in English. One could argue that we should stick to Novo mesto because that's the way it's spelled in Slovenian, but foreign geographic names are often modified in English. While I don't feel strongly about this one way or the other, I do think we should discuss it. WorldWide Update 21:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The spelling in the Slovenian Wikipedia is the way it should be spelled in my opinion (without the accent marks though, they are only written as an aid and are otherwise not written in Slovenian). Considering that there is no separate English name (in which case Slovenian onomastics wouldn't apply), the English language uses the Slovenian name and as such I think Slovenian grammatic rules should be respected. I think it's comparable to the usage of č, š, and ž in Slovenian-related topics in the English Wikipedia. If we were to consider English rules, the diacritics would be omitted, but it is generally preffered that they are not. edolen1 18:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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All major English-language sources use English grammar with Nove Mesto including atlases such as the Times, National Geographic, and Hammond among others, as well as other encyclopedias. Below are some online examples:

• Mapquest - Slovenia
• CIA - Slovenia
• Via Michelin - Novo Mesto
• National Geographic Map Machine - Novo Mesto
• Encarta - Novo Mesto

• Encyclopædia Britannica Online - Novo Mesto (article)

I would not presume to tell the Slovenian Wikipedia to change sl:Združeno kraljestvo to sl:Združeno Kraljestvo or sl:Združene države Amerike to sl:Združene Države Amerike and foreign grammar rules likewise are not appropriate for English usage. (Another example would be that, in English, Das Kapital does not become Dem Kapital in the after certain prepositions.)

LuiKhuntek 22:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

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Just a small correction there, it's not Nove Mesto, it's Novo Mesto.

ViaMichelin's database has the city under Novo mesto, not Novo Mesto. Its maps do have it under Novo Mesto, however I wouldn't call them on it, considering foreign names are often misspelled in maps. And if you look at the map, you'll see that all the towns with the word "vas" ("village"; same rule applies) have it in lower case, not upper case! You can see a similar thing in Mapquest, where all city names are in upper case (Stratford-upon-Avon is written Stratford Upon Avon) on the map and in the database, so using it as a reference is dubious in my opinion. edolen1 17:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about "Nove Mesto". I agree that online maps are not the best reference but English-language print maps and encyclopedias are in agreement on using the capitalized form. LuiKhuntek 03:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 05:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Novo Mesto → Novo mesto — Actual name of the city is "Novo mesto". There are English sources for both the capitalized and uncapitalized second word, so we should stick to the official one as it appears in maps and is used by people who actually know Novo mesto enough so to know how to write it right. —Húsönd 00:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose pending evidence that the uncapitalized spelling is predominant, or even competitive, in English. If both are found equally, then our convention is to follow the Slovene spelling, but that needs proof. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Provisional oppose, on the same basis. Some google-grade research produces a bit of a mish-mash, but Britannica, the BBC, the Guardian, the Financial Times, the Washington Post and the New York Times all seem to use "Mesto". (Or are we applying the new WP:DISREGARD to those notoriously sloppy sources?) Alai (talk) 09:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UE. A capitalized "Mesto" predominates in English sources. See evidence of English usage in discussion section below and this discussion at WT:UE for coverage of the issue in general. — AjaxSmack 02:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per the evidence below. Enough high quality English sources capitalise the 'M' for me to want the page to stay where it is. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 19:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Copied from above since they seem to be ignored there:

All major English-language sources use English grammar with Novo Mesto including atlases such as the Times, National Geographic, and Hammond among others, as well as other encyclopedias. Below are some online examples:

• Mapquest - Slovenia
• CIA - Slovenia
• Via Michelin - Novo Mesto
• National Geographic Map Machine - Novo Mesto
• Encarta - Novo Mesto
• Encyclopædia Britannica Online - Novo Mesto (article)

— AjaxSmack 02:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How about official websites?

• Town Municipality of Novo mesto
• Slovenian Tourist Board

Húsönd 03:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How about not?

You'll notice the Slovenian Tourist Board website you cited gives the name as "Novo mesto" four times but "Novo Mesto" three times in the opening article. Hardly a ringing endorsement. Reminds me of Ulan Bator's English website which uses three spellings of the city's name just on the front page. Such websites, "official" or not, are not always representative of common English usage. — AjaxSmack 08:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Answer

Let me tell you; I don't know how you write, but Slovenians write "mesto" (city), "vas" (village), "trg" (square) with small initial. But everything else is with big, for example: "Višnja Gora" (which means in Slovenian cherry mountain), "Nova Gorica","Velika Loka" and so on. Now it depends on you, how you'll write. For example and compare with something similar: Polish are writing: "Poznań", but we write, how we spell it: Poznanj. Greetings from Slovenia, --Amazone7 (talk) 12:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

For the sake of readers unfamiliar with Slovene, I think it's helpful to comment on the capitalization of Novo Mesto here. The city is written Novo mesto in Slovene-language texts. This is the proper way to write the name in a Slovene-language text and conforms to the rather complicated Slovene rules on capitalizing toponyms (without belaboring the issue, these rules are sufficiently complicated that many Slovenes capitalize their toponyms incorrectly, and some Slovene maps resort to all capitals to avoid the issue altogether). However, English conventionally capitalizes content words in toponyms (mesto 'town' is a content word), as do certain other languages (cf. now defunct German Karl-Marx-Stadt , French Combs-la-Ville). English also conventionally applies English capitalization style in English-language texts even to toponyms from languages that lack capitalization altogether (e.g., Chinese 上海 Shanghai, Hebrew כפר סבא Kfar Saba, Arabic جسر الشغور Jisr ash-Shugur, etc.) or to toponyms from languages (like Slovene) that follow other capitalization rules. Doremo (talk) 08:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

This needs to be moved to "Novo mesto" which is the proper grammar of a Slovene town. Diacritics for places, names etc. are also not in use in the English language, however, they are widely used on English Wiki. Ratipok (talk) 23:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

English does not follow the conventions of other languages. Such a move would be equivalent to moving Opel 1.3 litre to "Opel 1,3 Liter" (to follow German), El Señor Presidente to "El señor Presidente" (to follow Spanish), or Béla Bartók to "Bartók Béla" (to follow Hungarian). Doremo (talk) 03:37, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is a well-written article that also discusses this topic: [1]. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:45, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Recent edits

I reverted these recent edits because they do not improve the article. In particular, capitalizing "Southwest" is a very odd choice (see MOS:COMPASS). Please discuss and justify such changes and refrain from attacking other editors with comments like "Don't get cute". Doremo (talk) 16:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

English language issues (EW)

As suggested by User:Doremo (diff) the issue of Edit War because of the discourse of his English language regarding this article, the following topics are now displayed here to open a discussion after several reverts by him during the last weeks (in my opinion, this belongs to the user talk): History. What is to do to end this EW / vandalism. See also Diff as of 7 January 2021, 17:11 I am almost fed up. He thinks, his English language skills are great, but in my opinion, he is performing really poor in this matter. Due to Community regulations regarding EW, a solution must be concluded somehow. I ask Dormo to resign from any English language content matter at Wikimedia projects unless he has gained a higher level of skills (which has to be proven by presenting better products or certificates). After a vandalism warning yesterday by me,[2] he should consider a change of behavior in the very near future. BFN, --Mateus2019 (talk) 00:38, 9 January 2021 (UTC)