Talk:O'Donoghue of the Glens

Mor versus Glens

I'm looking forward to reading more about this. Please don't neglect to return to this article and also add relevant information to O'Donoghue.

I have several things to say.

• Personally I am suspicious of any claims made contradicting the published pedigrees, so lacking a pedigree linking O'Donoghue of the Glens to the O'Donoghues of Eóganacht Chaisil it will have to remain an important suggestion. I do not have a copy of Butler but hope to read one soon enough. A quote would be nice.

• You do realize that the O'Sullivans and McGillycuddy of the Reeks also descend from Fíngen mac Áedo Duib? Súildubán is eight generations down from him in the Rawlinson B 502 genealogies. We want to make sure we get the septs absolutely right so that no one loses any status they might deserve.

• Regarding the possible survival of the O'Donoghues Mor I am wary of these genetic tests. A lineage long regarded to be extinct since the 16th or 17th century simply cannot be revived in this manner, because it cannot be verified. Lacking pedigrees their survival is simply a possibility, not for certain.

• All this said, I am aware that there is only one O'Donoghue with a title remaining, regardless of his ultimate origins. I have investigated your excellent and energetic society and realize that he now represents all O'Donoghues in Ireland and around the world, and the families related to them.

• It would be nice if you could find out exactly which O'Donoghue(s) supported Aodh Mór Ó Néill when he came to Munster as Ard Righ, and acknowledged him as such in his camp at Inishcarra. This might come up some day. Like we do, you appear in the short lists I've seen.[1][2] There were at least five of us. Some of the O'Driscolls very likely did as well.

You might be amused by our own genealogical problems, which are really worse than yours. Have a look at Donnubán mac Cathail. We've been called out for our dismal pedigree by Donnchadh Ó Corráin no less. Some seem to think we're more a continuation of the Norse House of Limerick than we are Irish. Haha. Probably true. We would appear to be all that's left of them, and thus our Lord of Clancahill is also de facto, if not de jure, King of the Foreigners of Munster, there being no one else around who could possibly claim the title. So if O'Donoghue of the Glens wants to be both Eóganacht Raithlind and Eóganacht Chaisil you and he have my full support. Incidentally we may also belong to the Uí Echach Muman ourselves, as alleged by a contemporary document. So hello there. Not quite sure what happened to the real Uí Chairpre. DinDraithou (talk) 22:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I will be creating an O'Donoghue Mor article which will address a number of your concerns.

Don’t necessarily trust in pedigree material – it is full of error and the easiest thing to fabricate and indeed fraudulently re-invent- which Irish redactors have been doing since the 9th century and earlier. DNA can not be so easily manipulated.

Don’t be confused by O Sullivan/McGillycuddy claims of descent from Fingin. They actually only claim descent from Mór, wife of both Fingin and Failbe Flande, his younger brother, (and others besides – she was a much married woman, much like ‘The Wife of Bath’). Sullivans are Type II South Irish and thus match other Eóganachts – so we would not question their inclusion – just their patrimony being of either Fingin - Failbe Fland or others, and most significantly their level of importance. Whatever some of the histories say, they are a junior sept of Eóganacht Cashel. The O S/McG lineage produced no king of Munster whatsoever (which even they acknowledge on their clan website). This matriarchal claim, inflated by thence saying that they are the oldest name in Munster, is mistakenly repeated by others such as Barrington in his Discovering Kerry.

The recognition of the Mór lineage was one of the most significant findings of our DNA program. Of course what you say is true, but if you applied it completely across the board then all claims are invalid. Where is Niall of the Nine Hostages buried? Or Cellachain Cashel? Or Brian Boru? What do their bones have to tell us? Nothing can be verified without Habeas Corpus! Otherwise we simply have to go on faith or a preponderance of circumstantial evidence.

You are most mistaken that Geoffrey Paul would expect or assert such a notion that he represents all O'Donoghues. He is chief of his sept of O’Donoghue, the Glens branch, and genetics have proven this – there is no need to aggrandise or inflate pedigreed claims. While some of his ancestors attempted to claim the title Mór after that family's attainder, The Glens makes no such claim, even though he was encouraged to do so by the bogus MacCarthy Mór.

There is enough anecdotal evidence to support that the two O’Donoghues (Mór and Glens), as did O Donovans and O Mahonys, all went to recognise O Neill as Supremo when he came to Desmond. After all he had just beaten the stuffing out of the English at the Yellow Ford. Unfortunately that was his best moment as he proved to be no better a strategist or commander than were any before him.

The O Donovan connection to Ui Eachach Mumhan is interesting. Perhaps there is a client kingship involved or simply a special alliance with Ui Fidgente, for Ui Eachach also seemed to be well disposed to Vikings in Munster and accept them in their Ostmen settlements. I suspect you are aware that some of the Donovans who have been yDNA tested are South Irish, which is considered an Eóganacht signature.

Garranes (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)Garranes

I don't know why more O'Donovans have not had themselves tested. There was apparently enormous interest ten years ago but whatever society might have been formed has completely dissolved. I think there may have been one who turned up I1a (UltraNorse), not surprising if true.

I have had to tag the article for needed additional citations. We can't exactly have The Glens claiming one thing and the article claiming another. What you have at the top should be placed in a section below and requires many more citations. A quote from Butler may be needed since that work is not widely available. Wikipedia has a variety of rules and what we don't want is anything coming across as WP:OR (original research). More possibilities should probably be discussed, such as NPEs. Incidentally the O'Neills are widely rumoured to be the descendants of one themselves. I don't hold it against them at all.

But don't get me wrong! I'm quite interested by all of this and it is great that you have appeared here. I've been wondering what was going on since your Society is so active yet you had virtually no presence in Wikipedia. It is essential I believe that The Glens be given a full biographical section in this article, or be given one of his own. Your choice. O'Donovan has a section in O'Donovan and McGillycuddy in McGillycuddy of the Reeks, but in Ulster Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill has his own and so does Hugo O'Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan. DinDraithou (talk) 16:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant a quote for the final citation regarding Cenél Fíngin. I realize you have provided others. DinDraithou (talk) 17:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I am indeed a member of The O'Donoghue Society and intend to contribute further over the next while to adequately cover our history (I'm not the official historian, however, but rely upon others to assist in developing the copy.) Not sure what you mean about The Glens claiming one thing and the article claiming another, unless you think he might not agree. The Glens himself is a personal friend and I'm comfortable we will appropriately represent his interests. We will eventually develop a page devoted to The Glens. I may ask for input from his Tanist.

I don't see NPE's as an issue here, though Shane O'Neill is notoriously one, I know. (If they had DNA testing back then, he might not have made it in.) They were quite sticky about genealogical descent back then, but right of first night was a useful ploy to allow a worthy strong man into the derbhfine.

I'll add the quote from Butler. I don't think the article should open with the Glens vs Mor section? There is scope to increase the history of the Chiefship, but an expanded history of the Eoganacht Cashel belongs in the Eoganacta article, which could benefit from some attention as well. All in good time. The next task is creating a proper O'Donoghue Mor article, which I am in the process of doing right now. It will include the myth and legend as well as the history. There will be more information there to support the contention that there are current descendants of the lineage as well.

Who is the arbiter of when the tag you have placed is adequately addressed and can be removed?--Garranes (talk) 17:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh I or anyone can remove it. You can when appropriate. It's also just in case someone who has less knowledge comes along with other ideas. It sounds like the article will soon enough be in a state where it can be removed. A proposal of an alternative lineage needs to be handled carefully. That's why for Donnubán I gave the whole passage, both translation and Old Irish, and leave the rest up to the reader. Then when I have a copy of Herbert and Ó Riain I will be carefully covering their opinions. In your case what you might have to worry about is someone, for example an irritated MacCarthy, who holds the traditional view coming along and trashing all your work. I don't think the Clann Faílbe care much about the "seniority" of Cenél Fíngin, and definitely will not if the claims for O'Donoghue are based on DNA tests. If you provide lots of citations and quote your sources when appropriate then there is a lot less anyone can do. It will protect the article for the long term.

I see you have added the quote but this is WP:OR, since it is now clear that Butler did not claim himself the line was senior or entitled to special deference. You have used that passage to support your own claim and it will all need to be reworded.

I am looking forward to O'Donoghue Mor, and have a couple sources of my own for one in particular, who lives in a lake and may be an acquaintance of someone I know who lives in another lake. DinDraithou (talk) 19:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the last statement is quite WP:OR, but I will reword the section and clarify further. The DNA signature will be the same for both Kinel Finghin and Failbe Flan since they were brothers (of course, so were the 'sons' of Awly supposed to be...). But there are significant clusters of O'Donoghues and Mac Carthy's and O'Sullivan's who are all South Irish, so that isn't an issue one way or the other. It's documented who the senior brother was, however, and that's what I need to add - and can't find the book I want right now, so will go searching and add to the page when I find it.--86.40.15.241 (talk) 20:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Speculation

I have gone over the reports from your Society's Y-DNA project. Much of what you have added to this article will have to removed for being completely unsupported. "Strong family traditions" do not mean the O'Donoghues Mor still exist, and the fact that the Glens line is distinct from the other does not thus does not really say anything. Even less supported is the suggestion that the Glens line is the Cashel sept. If it is true that the other one is actually the Mor line, then mostly likely Glens results from a non-paternity event, it would appear. But I don't think you can be sure of the existence of the Mor line at all so we are really left back where we started. O'Donoghue of the Glens is the cadet branch of O'Donoghue Mor. I'm sorry. DinDraithou (talk) 22:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I admire the research you have been doing but none of the material is ready for Wikipedia yet. If it was mentioned in a peer-reviewed paper it would be a different story. Your Society looks excellent though and I wish you success in eventually producing a more convincing account of the genetics of the O'Donoghue septs. Best not to hurry and make sure you have considered all possiblities. DinDraithou (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that you have so abruptly chosen to remove all the material I have added here without discussing with me. I have provided quotes and references that make clear the two lineages are not related. This is not supposition - it is thorough research, regardless of the yDNA evidence and whether you agree that the Mor lineage is still extent. The reports of our yDNA project should certainly not be considered the complete basis for our determinations. If the text gave that impression, it needs to be amended. The first quotes from Butler and the first two quotes from the Annals of Inisfallen alone make clear there are two separate lineages. Are you suggesting I manufactured them? You seem to have disregarded them as valid.

I discussed with you issues I had with your own edits and left it to you to address them. You could have given me the same courtesy. The material in the article as it is currently is wholly inaccurate and will be corrected. It is based on erroneous data, much from O'Hart, who has the various O'Donoghues hopelessly confused. I appreciated your early comments as genuine and helpful. I will be quite prepared to discuss any issues you may have, which will help me improve the final article, but I hope you don't start removing my further contributions in the same manner without warning in future. It's certainly not conducive to cooperation and good will.--Garranes (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I must make a correction regarding which annals provided the information in the bullet points in my previous entries. Apparently it was through secondary sources rather than the AOI directly that the quotes were taken and given to me, with the assumption that they were all from the same source. They are not, or the wording is slightly different in the AOI than that which I entered. I will search the various annals to determine the accurate data before re-entering any information.--Garranes (talk) 17:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I will not permit you to embarrass The Glens among his peers by posting this mass of material neither supported by the pedigrees nor the annals. The Glens and Mor lineages evidently both belong to him, and what I frankly see here is an attempt by some who have had their DNA turn out differently from his to fabricate a story and appropriate his lineage, replacing it with the conveniently long extinct Cashel lineage. This is extremely unacceptable. If you continue as you promise then I will report it to the Wikipedia administration and other authories. DinDraithou (talk) 17:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

For the record, the 1st, 4th, 6th and 7th bullet points from my original material were taken from O'Hart, O'DONOGHUE (No.1) of Cashel - the page which I gather you reviewed. He does not indicate from whence he obtained the records, though they are not from the Annals of Inisfallen as I indicated originally. My point remains that the first two bullet points - the first recording Dungal Ua Donnchada King of Cashel in 1014 and the second indicating Donal mac Dubhdaboirenn, King of Ui Eachach (which is Auliffe Mor O'Donoghue's Raithlind line) in 1015 - makes clear that there are two entirely separate lineages of O'Donoghues. The fact that so many scholars failed to recognize that is puzzling, but then the widespread repetition in various histories that the Mor and Glens descended from sons of Auliffe Mor is probably the culprit. Even we Eoganacht O'Donoghues believed it until the yDNA results called it into question.

Also for the record, the Eoganacht Cashel O'Donoghues contributed more early Kings of Munster that Raithlind and monopolized the kingship for an extended period until the MacCarthy's gained prominence. One could argue that the Cashel O'Donoghues have a more illustrious history than the Raithlind. If you wish to criticize, I would recommend being better informed before so doing.

I have made my own inquiries about the protocol for such aggressive revert behaviour. I explained to you before that our small group of O'Donoghues include The Glens himself, who is aware of all our researches and conclusions. It appears you are reluctant to believe me. I fear you risk embarrassment yourself by such strident remarks and high dudgeon. I hope our group's future contributions can be reviewed civilly. I do not intend to accept further abrupt reverts without appropriate discourse.--Garranes (talk) 22:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is no place for original and unprofessional research. Write a paper first, have it published somewhere, and then we'll see. For the record I am a descendant of Donal II O'Donovan and Owen MacCarthy Reagh, 12th Prince of Carbery, and your patron is thus a very distant cousin of mine through the MacCarthys.[3] I only have his best interests in mind. Your society website is not a reliable source for this sort of material. I'm sorry. DinDraithou (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Beautiful!

What you have added this time is beautifully written! Thank you for coming through. It is not at all contentious. Now that you have the traditional story there I see nothing wrong with the addition of your alternative theory in a section of moderate size at the bottom. Simply concede that it is new and one possible but popular interpretation of the Y-DNA results. I don't want the other lineages to be extinct either and hope to see a paper on the possibilities some day.

I still hope to see O'Donoghue Mor appear because I might have a little to contribute. DinDraithou (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)