Talk:OCMFA (Hong Kong)

Title of article

@Cfls:. Hi. I saw the title of the article was rolled back once again. It comes to me that -

1. the title might be in potential violation of WP:OR, as I have difficulties in finding sources that justify your proposed name of "Office of the Commissioner";
2. in Hong Kong the common abbreviation of the office is "外交部駐港特派員公署" (lit. "Foreign Ministry's Hong Kong Commissioner's Office in Hong Kong"), which would better be translated into "Commissioner's Office of China's Foreign Ministry in Hong Kong" per WP:COMMONNAME;
3. under WP:CONCISE, it has to "balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the general subject area", whilst this title seem to lack sufficient information on the important note of Foreign Ministry;
4. WP:PRECISE requires unambiguity, but a quick search on Google landed me on "Office of the Commissioners" (of Transport Department).

It would be grateful if I may hear from your input. Thank you. ~~ J. Dann 13:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Office of the Commissioner" is originated from the corresponding Chinese name "特派員公署". In the context of Hong Kong, "特派员公署" serves as the short name for the full name of "中華人民共和國外交部駐香港特別行政區特派員公署". It is not invented or an original research of mine, but an official common short name used by the Hong Kong government.

For example, the Protocol Division Government Secretariat of the government of Hong Kong uses the sentence "According to Article 13 of the Basic Law, the Central People's Government is responsible for the management of foreign affairs related to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR), while the Office of the Commissioner of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (the Office of the Commissioner) established in Hong Kong is responsible for handling foreign affairs." on its official website. The government website then refer to the agency of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as "Office of the Commissioner" in all following text. Moreover, in speeches of Hong Kong government officials and also daily local life conversations, the agency of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is also commonly referred to as the stand-alone "特派員公署", which means the "Office of the Commissioner".

In the special context of Hong Kong, "Office of the Commissioner" is used to refer to the agency of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Thus, we have the the disambiguation parameter of "Hong Kong" was added to the article title. In the context of Hong Kong, the article's title name strictly follows the Wikipedia policies of WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE.

I understand that the name "Office of the Commissioner" may be used in other governments. However, in the context of Hong Kong, the standalone name "Office of the Commissioner" predominately refers to the foreign affairs agency.

Regarding the "Office of the Commissioners of Transport Department" (运输署署長辦公室) appears in the directory of the government of Hong Kong, it is referred to with specific context and hatnote of "Transport Department – Headquarters – Office of the Commissioners". Without the "Transport Department" context, "署長辦公室" (literally the Office of the Director) may be referred to a large range of things. It needs to be specified the context before pointing at the specific agency given the context of Hong Kong. Moreover, the notability of the Office of the Commissioners at the Transport Department may not meet the Wikipedia notability standards. We may create a disambiguation page clarifying that the Transport Department has an internal agency with similar name. At the same time, I think it may not be necessary because the Office of the Commissioners of the Transportation Department is so less well-known that it is not even mentioned in the Transportation Department's own Wikipedia entry.

What I also want to point out is that, the name "Commissioner's Office of China's Foreign Ministry in Hong Kong" is "No results found" status on all of the government of Hong Kong (gov.hk) websites, nor the name "Foreign Ministry's Hong Kong Commissioner's Office in Hong Kong. Cfls (talk) 15:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cfls: Thank you for your comments. I shall be replying separately according to the paragraphs in your reply for convenience.

1&2. The official short name of the Office, according to the Protocol Division Government Secretariat, shall be "OCMFA". The "Office of the Commissioner", which is a direct translation of "特派員公署", might not be more authoritative than the official English source and raise suspicions of WP:OR, although one would acknowledge your faithfulness in the WP:TRANSCRIPTION as the exception of WP:OR. The abbreviation also avoids ambiguity and, as it is from primary source, will not contradict principles established at WP:TITLE. I shall kindly provide the quote as follows:

Office of the Commissioner of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People’s Republic of China (OCMFA) is established in Hong Kong to deal with the foreign affairs

It also appears that the abbreviation of "特派員公署" is only limited to the website but not necessarily in official use.

3. Per my comments above, WP:CONCISE requires "sufficient information to identify the topic". The role of Chinese Foreign Ministry, neglected in the current title is neglected, is significant for identification in my personal view or possibly resonates amongst the majority of individuals concerned.

4. It would be generally accepted in the Sinophone as "特派員公署" is an uncommon name. However, I would unavoidably cast doubts under the English context.

5. The example I provided aims to explain that Office of the Commissioner(s) is a rather common name not solely for the use of the Chinese Foreign Ministry. Meanwhile I do believe it is unnecessary for creating a standalone article for the Transport Department's Office of the Commissioners per your reasons elaborated.

6. Since you have provided the statistics of internet search, perhaps to justify WP:COMMONNAME, I shall also note that "駐港公署" (abbr. according to Hong Kong Government Yearbook) gave 445k results on Google, "外交部駐港公署" gave 370k, while "特派員公署" only returned 164k.

I look forward to your reply. Kind regards, ~~ J. Dann 06:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)