Talk:OZNA

title

We've been through a fair few pointless changes here:

• 27 February 2012‎ DIREKTOR moved OZNA to Department of National Security: Acronym
• 15 January 2012‎ PRODUCER moved Department for the Protection of the People to OZNA over redirect: revert
• 28 May 2010‎ PRODUCER moved OZNA to Department for the Protection of the People: use english
• 30 March 2005‎ article created as OZNA

https://www.google.com/search?q=OZNA+Yugoslavia&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 gives me "About 4,740 results", the top ten are clearly about this topic, and clicking on the last page entries eventually brings me to 51 pages. So everything's pretty clear on that end - it seems to be a popular vernacular name.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Department+of+National+Security%22+yugoslavia&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 says "About 313 results". Of the top ten hits, only one actually seems to refer to OZNA, another refers to some KoY agency, and others seem half-random.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Department+for+the+Protection+of+the+People%22+yugoslavia&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 says "About 396 results". Of the top ten hits, the first nine are clear references to OZNA, and six of them also use the OZNA acronym or original title. The top hit is Tomasevich's book that I've seen referenced often elsewhere, and the tenth hit is a 1983 Yugoslav bulletin (non-English).

I know from local usage that there are likely more people who know about OZNA than those who know what the acronym means, so for a start I'll revert to the title that's been in use here for five years, in the heyday of Wikipedia, without objection, before we started screwing with it :) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Note also NKVD, KGB. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The list and ignorance

@@Antidiskriminator: @Sadko: This list IS NOT list of 55,554 registered murdered victims of communist (actualy link says 59554. It is list of persons with unknown graves. Do You, misters Antisirkimnitator and Sadko want to say that OZNA killed certain Jovanka Jojkic in Auswic?! You know, a place in Poland Are you so much ignorant or you deliberately lie? Next, it is possible that half of deaths that partisans (partisans are front units, KNOJ and OZNA) weren't due to violence (I am referring on Volksdeuchers in labor/concentration camps), but due to illness, age, malnutrition... Next, what can you say on Milorad Mojic [1] Who was he and who killed him? And why then is he counted than in list of OZNA victims? What about Milan Aćimović, who was he and how he died? -- Bojan  Talk  14:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

You were already warned more than once (ie diff) not to change cited content, and you continue to do it. Please stop.

The title of the list is "Registar žrtava komisije za tajne grobnice ubijenih posle 12 septembra 1944". Translated to English: "The register of victims of the State Commission for secret graves of persons killed after 12 September 1944." The source clearly says victims killed after 12 September 1944 when communists were in charge. If you have reliable sources which contradict what this source say, please add new assertion and cite it. Do not change existing cited assertion. This link explains in detail what this commission did "проналажење и обележавање свих тајних гробница у којима се налазе посмртни остаци стрељаних после ослобођења 1944. године" (translated to English: "finding and marking all secret graves with remnants of killed people after liberation in 1944"). The source clearly refer to victims who were killed after communists siezed control in Serbia. Therefore I will restore changed content.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, can You explain my questions on Milorad Mojić, Jovanka Jojkić and Milan Aćimović? When you don"t know of fear to answer me, then you cite Wikipedia policies. Bring it on on administrator noticeboard. One of us (not me) is falsifying facts, bring it on administrator noticeboard, if you dare.

Analysis of list of 59,554 names:

Među 41 lice koje nije ubijeno od strane koju obično zovemo komunističkom, a uračunato je u tzv. “žrtve komunizma”, u registru je navedeno 14 osoba (pretežno Jevreja iz Bačke) stradalih u logoru Aušvic, 2 osobe stradale u logoru Mauthauzen, i po jedna osoba stradala u logoru Jasenovac i logoru Bergen-Belcen, kao i određen broj pripadnika NOVJ/JA koji su poginuli u borbama krajem 1944. ili tokom 1945.

Aušvic: Kata Gerštl (Novi Sad, RKTG-63067); Jovanka Jojkić (Žabalj, RKTG-71257); Andrija Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85242); Josip Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85243); Sara Najman (Sombor, RKTG-85244); Nemeš (Sombor, RKTG-85245); Ilona Volhajmer (Sombor, RKTG-100942); Leopold Balint (Ada, RKTG-44361); Roži Balint (Ada, RKTG-44362); Tibor Balint (Ada, RKTG-44363); Salamon Bakran (Sombor, RKTG-44419); Jovan Barna (Kula, RKTG-44420); Jovanka Narna (Kula, RKTG-44421); Petar Gavrilović (Zemun, RKTG-66972); Mauthauzen: Zoran Purigrački (Nova Crnja, RKTG-54739); Vujica Dašić (Čačak, RKTG-6380); Jasenovac: Jakob Zorić (Subotica, RKTG-57086); Bergen-Belcen: Šarlota Galc (Novi Sad, RKTG-62998).

"Experts" from who created this list of those died after 12th September 1944, included names (removed after the analysis by historian Milan Radanović), of persons who died already in 1941-1943 (examples were Đorđe Kosmajac (RKTG-40211, member of Zbor and police agent in German service), Aleksandar Mišić (RKTG-79968, killed by Germans in 1941 in Operation Mihailović), Božidar Ćosović (RKTG-87648, killed by Mihailović's chetniks in 1943), Miloje Mojsilović (RKTG-87638, died while being transported to Mauthausen in 1942-1943) -- Bojan  Talk  02:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Further, only small fraction of deaths can by attributed to OZNA. Mihailović and Co. got their trials, they were undisputed collaborators and they were not innocent victims. -- Bojan  Talk  03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I have no plan or desire to get in to endless discussions which would only lead in circles (based on previous experience). 1) Nobody should not just remove the sources as they please, without giving a good reason. 2) Making diffs which start with "lies" is not done in good faith and constitutes poor behaviour. 3) I do not see alternative RS added. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 10:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

You have to discuss whenever there is a conflict. I contested that people were almost 60,000 peoples were murdered. When someone looks deeper in the source, he/she will find that even such poor source that is trying to attribute killing in Auswic to partisans doesn't say that almost 60,000 were murdered. You will find causes of death: diseases (kidney failures, etc due to bad conditions in camps), missing. Further, altough the source tries to hide, many were killed in combat or committed suicide (e.g. Predrag Raković[2]). There are many lies, and I still want to believe that Antidiskriminator is just an ignorant, not a liar. But... -- Bojan  Talk  13:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)