Talk:Oatcake

Edit

Edit: removed footer link

• The Oatcake

As this is a Football fan website with no relevancy within the context of this subject Some links also appear to be broken at present. 86.3.101.212 (talk) 22:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

N. Staffs oatcakes more well known

Prior to this article, I was unaware of the existance of Scottish oatcakes. I have seen North Staffordshire oatcakes sold everywhere, from Cornwall to Rhyl and I know of some people in Scotland who claim to have seen North Staffs. Most people I speak to from outside Stoke-on-Trent have no knowledge of the Scottish oatcake either, but have are aware of the North Staffs one. User:MysticalDescent

This article is misleading as it stands, as Scottish oatcakes are far better known. Bovlb 04:22, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

I'm going to rectify that. I'm removing the recipe, which is simply copied from the Wikibooks recipe (which is linked to). As well, Scottish Oatcakes are better known, and the article should reflect this. Canaen 00:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this is beacause I am from Scotland but I'd never even heard of 'North Staffordshire oatcakes' until I read this page. It's not like I'm up in the highlands, I grew up a mile away from the border but I've never heard anyone mention them or seen them referrenced written down anywhere. Perhpas they are better known than scottish ones, but I thought oatcakes were a Scottish stereotype, and most people seem to know the stereotypes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.71.145 (talk) 19:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

North Staffs Oatcake

an oakcake is definately not a type of pancake. The north staffs oatcake is the true form of the 'oakcake'. (Unsigned comment by anonymous reader moved here from the article.)

Just a thought - the Staffs oatcake is not really a delicacy; more a staple food Alsager boy 12:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

N Staffs?

At the risk of annoying Staffordshire readers, I really think the section dealing with Scottish oatcakes should come first, since they're widely available and known in other parts of the UK, whereas the N Staffs version seems to be very much a local speciality. I'm also inclined to remove the sentence saying the recipe "is a secret", since (without any further qualification) that's clearly not the case: see here for example. I'm sure individual bakers have their own secret recipes, but that applies to any number of foods and is not a remarkable feature of the N Staffs oatcake. Loganberry (Talk) 00:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't care which comes first, but I would like to point out that North Staffordshire oatcakes are available from Sainsbury's in Waterloo Road, London SE1 (and probably other branches too), so they're no longer just a local speciality. Charivari 07:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Im a stoke lad, and eat oatcakes for breakfast, dinner and tea. As do most of my friends. On our last college trip the hostel we were staying in got us oatcakes, yes you can get them anwhere. Only the thing is guess where they were sent from :P I know lads in sweden and many other countries all over the world that have oatcakes delivered to them from stoke. Just because you can get olives in sainsburys dont make them not from Italy or whatever :D For some real info on oatcakes (and unfortunately portvale visit www.oatcakes.net) I eat there oatcakes!

Well, just about anything's available in London if you know where to look, whether it's a local speciality or not, so that doesn't really mean anything. Now if North Staffs oatcakes were available in Medicine Hat that would be different... -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've put the Scottish section first, again. A national staple is bound to be more significant than a local delicacy. One of these days I'll find a decent image for real Scots Oatcakes. Staffs oatcakes aren't known outside of the UK, save for expatriots and the like, whereas Scottish Oatcakes, especially those marketed by Walkers, are widely known here.

[[

Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png]] Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

How about splitting the article, then the question of which should come first wouldn't arise. The two types are sufficiently different that separate articles would make sense. Charivari 01:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with splitting the article - totally different foods. I'd also take issue with the statement that the Staffordshire Oatcake was made throughout Britain prior to the Industrial Revolution. I've seen no evidence of this. I reasonably believe they were a product of the wishes of the North Staffs Regiment soldiers from around 1900 upon their return from duty in India.

Additionally, the only Derbyshire oatcakes I've encountered are much the same size, but much thicker.

Can I suggest that although regional, the Staffs-style oatcake has a broad spread across the northern midlands . I grew up on a Yorkshire variant of the Derbys./Staffs oatcakes in Sheffield in the 1970s and 80s. (discussion and recipe on Sheffield Forum). I also think they were sparingly available in Manchester in the 90s. Sheffield Forum's suggestion that oatcakes are also know as havercakes in other parts of Yorkshire, along with the link to the Duke of Wellington's Regiment might bear some investigation.84.68.23.186 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC).

I propose that the entire section on Staffordshire oatcakes be moved to the Crumpets article instead, which features Scottish crumpets/pancakes. These are extraordinarily similar to Staffs oatcakes, despite oats being the primary ingredient not wheat. There is much more similarity and relatedness between Staffs oatcakes and Scottish crumpets, than between Staffs oatcakes and Scottish oatcakes, which are entirely different things : the former is a kind of pancake, the latter is a type of biscuit. 88.105.161.86 (talk) 21:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Newbie question

A California "Suncake" Oatcake with Cranberries.

Hi...I am looking for info on the California Oatcakes you find in the cafes of San Francisco and many other areas. They are similar to a hockey puck shape and are dense. I believe they have dates in them as well. It's been 15 years since I had one, and I live on the East Coast, so looking to see if anyone is familiar with these cakes and how they're made.

Hi newbie. I'm from California, and I know what you're talking about! I have one in my backpack right now, actually. They're much, much thicker than Scottish oatcakes, about an inch or two high, and maybe 3-4 across. Filled with fruits, nuts, what have you. Commercially available, particularly under the name of Suncakes. Perhaps mention of these should be made in the article, somewhere. I might be able to get an image for them. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a round date slice (we don't have an article on date slices yet ?) to me. A picture would definitely be in order to clear this up. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much. The one I've got in front of me right now is called a California Suncake, it's about 2 & 1/2 inches wide (diameter), and about an inch high/tall. It's quite a bit more oaty than the date slices you've linked to, but essentially the same. I've included a poor-quality picture here, but ce la vie, eh? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 04:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So, how can we classify something like this? I'd put forth biscuit, but I'm thinking I just have a fondness for the term. Small cake? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 04:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Crackers / Pancake or Cracker?

For the British view on crackers see http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/biscuits/index.php3 which should leave you in no doubt that Scottish oatcakes are crackers whichever side of the Atlantic you live on. -- Derek Ross | Talk

A thicker-than-average oatcake could scarce be called a cracker. I think that biscuit is probably the best term for desrcibing Oatcakes. However, we should try to be encompassing here. Obviously, the North Staffs. style is neither cracker nor biscuit. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 01:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well even a thick oatcake is rarely more than 1/4 of an inch thick and I'd have no objection to classifying an oatcake as biscuit if it weren't for the ambiguous meaning of "biscuit" but I see what you mean about the North Staffs variety of oatcake. It is rather different. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So I know what a nice real Scots Oatcake is like, and it quite resembles a cracker. However, its make-up is that of a pancake. Not in the flapjack sense that Americans would think of, but in the sense that an Oatcake is a cake of oats, cooked in a pan, or on a skillet. Thus, pancake, which is how that is meant. Just because Scots (rightly, I might add) refrain from adding yeast, or other things which would liven up the cake, does not make it any less of a pancake. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 01:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That makes senes, although as an Englishman, I think of oatcakes as a type of food in their own right, not as a subset of anything else. I certainly wouldn't use any of the terms cracker, pancake or flapjack to describe one in everyday speech. (Of course, a UK flapjack is a very different animal from a US flapjack anyway!) Loganberry (Talk) 01:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Canaen, the trouble is that when we say pancake, people think large, soft, floppy disc, no matter which country they live in. While you are technically correct about the manner of preparation being the same as that of a pancake (or a drop bannock or a girdle scone for that matter) you have to agree that the end product is totally different, so describing them as a pancake is misleading to people who don't know what they're like. And despite the widespread availability of Walker's and Nairn's oatcakes in North America there are still a large number of people who don't know what they're like. For these people it's far more useful to describe an oatcake as a cracker than as a pancake. Even describing it as a biscuit isn't that helpful since people may then think you mean a scone-type US biscuit rather than a cracker-type UK biscuit. Loganberry is right that we don't normally think of an oatcake as a kind of cracker in the UK. It's just that if you have to classify it, then that's what it most closely resembles both in its savoury brittleness and in the use to which it is normally put (it is the finest accompaniment to cheese). That's why I wanted to say cracker rather than pancake in the article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. I can accept cracker here. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 04:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The oatcake is not a cake at all really Not a cake in that way More of a Potteries Poppadom A sort of Tunstall Tortilla A clay Suzette

                     Arthur Berry

Hmmm. I've just thought. Oatcakes are barbecue food. By which I mean they would be dead easy to make on the barbecue when I'm cooking other stuff. Time for an experiment tomorrow! -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ooo... nifty. Shall we enjoy a report? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 04:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Irish Oatcakes

Unsurprisingly given the shared cultural background and similar environment of Ireland and Scotland, oatcakes are pretty common in Ireland and are virtually indistinguishable from scottish oatcakes (Staffs. ones are unknown, sorry guys...). Not sure it's worth mentioning -anyway here's a trivially googled example - as it's for export, they're called "Irish oatcakes" rather than just "oatcakes" as an Irish or Scots person would say: http://www.irishgourmet.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/22_23/products_id/177 Worthy of inclusion in-page? Meh. 83.70.219.237 17:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we might just change "Scottish oatcake" to "Oatcake" or something. Thanks for point this out! It doesn't really need a separate section, just an inclusion, I think. It's the same thing as the Scottish kind, the Irish were just lucky because once in awhile they could get something besides oats to grow in their soil. ; ) File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 05:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

19-oatcake

What does the expression "19-oatcake" mean? Pimlottc 13:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Effectively "a long time ago". For example "back in 19 oatcake when my granny was wee...". The expression was used a lot in The Broons and Oor Wullie, although I think they tended to say "18 oatcake". I guess its a joking reference to some vague time around eighteen-o-one, eighteen-o-two...eighteen-o-atcake. Probably not very pertinent to this article though. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not that uncommon. My wife still uses the expression quite a lot anyway. -- Derek Ross | Talk 09:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes it's pretty widespread, I use it myself. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Staffordshire Oatcakes are not steamed.

I'm 40 and lived in Stoke-on-Trent all my life. I have never even heard of anyone steaming oatcakes between two plates or any other method. They are generally grilled. It is personal taste whether both sides are grilled or not. I personally grill the outer side (the side with the least holes) then flip it over and put cheese on it. I have asked my 84 year old grandmother who has lived in Stoke-on-Trent all her life. She has confirmed with me that she has never heard of anyone steaming an Oatcake. This is very misleading and needs to be removed.

Shroomsxxxx (talk) 16:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Okay, the section that reads:

"They are made almost entirely of oats, the only cereal to flourish in northern Scotland. Traditionally, each community had its own mill to grind oats from local crofts and supply oatmeal for every household."

is total PLAGIARISM!! These wordings come straight off the box of Walker's Oatcakes. I know, because I just at some oatcakes and was reading the print of the box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.0.232 (talk) 14:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed. This sentence is taken verbatim from the Walker's Oatcakes packaging. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.30.161 (talk) 02:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

So are you saying that Walkers has copied Wikipedia's text without attribution ? Or that Wikipedia has copied Walkers' text without attribution? And why do you think so? Because it wouldn't be the first time that someone has assumed that Wikipedia is the plagiarist when in fact it has been the victim. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's try and work out the order. The text was added to Wikipedia by Canaen, who wrote most of the Scottish section, in this edit on December 23rd 2005. It's quite old, so it could go either way. Canaen has no fresh edits since January 2008, so may be difficult to contact, but I'll try. From his/her edit history, Canaen looks like an experienced editor, so maybe this is original Wikipedia text. Anyone got an old box of Walker's out there? GyroMagician (talk) 08:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

That was easy. Canaen says "I took it straight off the walkers box. It was meant as a quote, though I doubt that it is still formatted that way." So, I guess someone should edit. GyroMagician (talk) 12:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay. That's open and shut. Let's fix it then. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:52, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

new picture

What type of oatcake is the one featured in the new picture? It doesn't look anything like any Scottish oatcake I have seen in my life and, although I'm unfamiliar with them, it doesn't look much like the Staffordshire version either. I'm not sure it even looks much like it is made of oats. Is it a third species? Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The photo shows a home-made oatcake. It was indeed made with oats. Jonathunder (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but what type of oatcake? It does not look typical to me but it may well be of a type not covered yet in the article, in which case can you clarify? Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a rough version of one of the sweet oatcakes made with rolled oats (probably the same as the ones mentioned in the section, Newbie question, above) which I've recently come across in Tim Hortons and other Canadian cafes. They're nice but they're more like a HobNob or oaty shortbread than anything else. Indisputably an oat biscuit but not exactly the first thing I think of when I think of oatcakes. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

On that basis, as it's not an image of a type covered in the article I wonder if it should be featured unless and until that type is covered, with details of its notability as an oatcake variety. I'm particularly reticent as it is the first image in the article but not representative of it as it stands. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean but let's see what Jonathunder has to say since I suspect this particular oatcake is "all his own work". The description attached to the file says "An oatcake made from rolled oats, water, and a bit of shortening, cooked on a baking stone over a wood fire" which more-or-less meets the definition of a standard Scottish oatcake. My advice would be to put the rolled oats in a coffee grinder next time and chop them up before using them. That'll make a sort of oatmeal and improve the texture of the final product. -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:29, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't notice the description had been amended. Not sure that it's either a Scottish one or per Newbie above. The Newbie ones sounds more cake or flapjack like, with nuts, fruit and presumably sugar - unlike the one in the photo. I don't think you'd be able to make a Scottish one with rolled oats no matter what you did to them. Oatmeal yes, but I think rolled oats would give you a more porridgy, much less brittle texture, which explains the different appearance in the photo. And the description makes no mention of baking powder or bicarb. I'm sure they're very nice but not like the ones mentioned in the article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Girdle/Griddle

I changed 'girdle' to 'griddle'. Apparently the correct Scots term is 'girdle' - so it clearly does belong in the article. But linking 'girdle' to 'griddle' without explanation is clearly confusing, and I'm sure other people will make the same mistake I have. A reference would also be helpful. I do not think the Scots English banner helps here. It is also worth adding a note to the 'griddle' page to the same effect. GyroMagician (talk) 09:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure re refs; have done them. You may well know the difference anyway but I thought I'd just note it's not just the term in Scots but also Scottish (Standard) English too, seeing as this is Wikipedia in English.

I did contemplate noting girdle in the griddle article, but aside from the intro I couldn't find a section where it would fit and wasn't convinced a different name in one variety of English was sufficiently notable to place right at the start. What's more would we have to put baxton there for the N. Staffs. term as well and any other terms which exist? Let me know what you think. Maybe a new section for name variants?

The Scots English banner (and other English variant banners) is often very helpful in circumstances where users unfamiliar with a variant of English appropriate for that article are constantly reverted for good faith in-corrections. Clearly this is not an appropriate banner for the whole article as there is the N. Staffs. section and it would be better if there was a 'section' version of the banner but it alerts users that terms unfamiliar to them may be just that, rather then errors. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

"Baxton"

"It (the N Staffs oatcake) is cooked on a griddle or 'baxton'" Presumably "baxton" = local dialect pronunciation of bakestone? Finding a decent ref is prvoving a bit hard, hence posting here rather than adding the clarification and risking a horde of Five Towners insisting that baxton is simply a frying pan, but as it stands it must be confusing to readers who aren't from round those parts? Ghughesarch (talk) 00:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Sliced rounds

Large sliced rounds cut into pieces are indeed not truly triangles but a wedge is, effectively, a 3-d or deep triangle so at best is no improvement in wording and, unless you've got a particularly and atypically fat oatcake, probably worse. The shape is a circular sector and would usually be divided into four so the shapes would be quadrants; not particularly idiomatic but hardly obscure either. "Triangular shapes" for simplicity, "quadrants" for accuracy but wedge is not as good on either ground. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I just put "segments". How's that? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 16:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

It's a tough one isn't it? To my mind probably better than triangles but not really accurate either. Idiomatically it implies the shape of an orange segment, which is rather different, and geometrically it's not correct either (see circular segment). "Quarters" maybe? I don't think I've ever seen rounds divided into anything other than four pieces and it's less formal sounding than quadrants. What do you reckon? Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's a toughie ( visions of ending up six months later in the "lamest edit wars ever" list ;-) ). When buying shortbread biscuits sometimes the ones of this shape are called "fans". So maybe "fan-shaped portions" ? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 17:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...maybe ok for petticoat tails (which I think would normally be 6ths or 8ths) but seems a bit neologistic for oatcakes. Quarter circles? Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:57, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned, I don't think it's accurate to call them triangles, wedges, segments or fans. If there are no objections I'll change it to "If the rounds are large, they are then sliced into quarters.", or "...they are then quartered." if that is preferred. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Fine, if it's always quartered, otherwise I'm coming back to wedges ... Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm kicking myself for a numpty as, in the process of googling to see if I can find any instances of large oatcake rounds being divided into anything other than quarters (I didn't come up with any incidentally, as far as I went with the search), it dawned on me that of course there is a specific term: farl. Personally I'd normally associated it with scones or bannocks, and indeed I've seen quadrants of shortbread termed farls but it applies just as much to oatcakes. Also, it occurred to me that it might not be clear that the slicing is before baking. So ""If the rounds are large, they are then sliced into farls before baking." (possibly with "(quarters)" after the word "farls" for clarification)? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Split

As the original 2004 article was about the Staffordshire Oatcake it is my suggestion that this article remains on the original subject while the rest is split into a new Scottish Oatcake article as this will avoid the article becoming confusing and unweildy. To the untrained eye, you could dismiss them as the same foodstuffs, but this would be the same as bundling Donuts with Bagels because they look similar. --Jpswade (talk) 15:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Without addressing the merit or otherwise of a split, should there be one, the term oatcake should at the very least be a redirect to the article on the Scottish version, if not indeed be its title. The Scottish version is widely available in supermarkets and many grocery stores throughout the UK but, to my knowledge, the Staffordshire version is only available in that general locale (personally, for what it's worth, I've not yet come across one). Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:16, 11 August 2013 (UTC) 22:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The Scottish version is also available in many supermarkets in Canada and Australia and possibly other parts of the world. But the Staffordshire version doesn't appear to be. So the Scottish version should be the primary topic of the Oatcake article if it's split. -- Derek Ross | Talk 09:01, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the page needs some help - it's currently a bit of a scrapbook. But I'm not sure how the split would work - do Lancashire oatcakes or Canadian oatcakes also get their own page? How would you feel about a decent lede, emphasizing simple food made from oats, followed by two sections: soft oatcakes and hard oatcakes (in either order)? And to mystery anon, Tesco were selling Staffs oatcakes a few years ago - I've no idea if they still do, or if it was a Midlands only thing. GyroMagician (talk) 09:03, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's a Midlands thing as I've not seen them in Tescos in London, elsewhere in southern England, Wales or in Scotland but I have seen the Scottish ones in each of these places. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. I was not trying to make a point about relative availability, I was merely offering information I thought you might find useful. I think most of us would agree the Scottish version has been far more commercialised, and is therefore what most readers will be looking for when they come here. That is not the discussion here (or at least, I don't think it is). The question is how to deal with the page - hence the very reasonable question - split or not? GyroMagician (talk) 11:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If your sigh indicates having taken offence, apologies. You made a comment about your experience of relative availability which I found useful and informative and I responded with my experience regarding relative availability which I assumed you would find useful and informative, having raised the topic. It's also useful to know that you'd agree that the Scottish version is far more widely known. Yes, I'd agree that it is a very reasonable question as to whether to split the article or not but I am currently not addressing that as I am undecided, interested to see any debate to help me make up my mind but, should there be a split I do have an opinion about the primary topic. The latter is not the main topic of this discussion but, in my opinion, is a pertinent element of it. Again, sorry if I've upset or confused you. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

To make this into logical orderly page I propose dividing the page into three sections. The first section titled Scottish oatcakes, the second English oatcakes and the third Canadian Oatcakes. The heading 'English oatcakes would be followed by a summary something like this: --- "English oatcakes are quite different from Scottish oatcakes in that they are cooked more like pancakes. And whereas Scottish oatcakes feature ca 15% butter, sugar and are quick bread using sodium bicarbonate, English oatcakes use neither fat nor sugar, and their leavening agent is yeast." --- Then under this summary we sub-head the regional variations from Staffs, Derby, Lancs and Yorks. Kildwyke (talk)

For my proposed summary under a heading English oatcakes I now see that many editors object the term pancake; not all scots cakes contain sugar; and the shortening may not be butter. So how about "English oatcakes use no fat and their traditional leavening is yeast whereas Scottish oatcakes feature ca 15% shortening and they are quick breads." I welcome any suggestions Kildwyke (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Split As there are no definitive votes here I will be bold and split as per my proposal. As for the "Oatcake" page, although I believe the Staffordshire Oatcake is the more popular (according to news coverage and Google Trends for Oakcake) I believe a disambiguation page is the most objective solution. --Jpswade (talk) 10:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

As nobody above appears to agree with your exact proposal, I think this very unwise. And as to your belief that the Staffordshire oatcake is the most popular one, this seems bizarrely misguided. There are three small city centre branches of major supermarkets within a hundred metres of the London location I am in at the moment that I know to stock Scottish or Scottish-style oatcakes. Lovely as I'm sure Staffordshire oatcakes are, I have never come across one physically in my life. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Jpswade, you proposed splitting to Scottish oatcake and Staffordshire oatcake, but made no mention of Lancashire oatcakes or Canadian oatcakes, so your proposal is incomplete. I don't understand how you come to your conclusion about Google -- it seems to show lots of Stoke City fans searching for The Oatcake fanzine. Based on my personal experiences I'd think most people associate "oatcake" with the Scottish variety. -- Dr Greg  talk  19:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Personally I would support splitting the article. The Scottish and Staffordshire versions are radically different, and are eaten differently. I'd never heard of a Lancashire oatcake, but round here we call the Staffordshire version "Cheshire oatcakes" (but we know what is meant by "Staffordshire oatcakes"). The Cheshire, Staffordshire, Derbyshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire versions sound similar, and could be treated in the same article. Similarly the Scottish, Irish and Canadian versions are alike and could easily be treated in the same article. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Scottish and Irish oatcakes may be similar but my experience is that Canadian oatcakes are not. The former are thin, savoury crackers whereas the latter is a thick, sweet shortcake. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

In hindsight, I'm going to change my position on this to reflect what is written in this international article entitled "On the trail of the oatcake" written by Martin Wainwright for TheGuardian which says "The North Staffordshire oatcake is floppy and pancake-like, as opposed to the more famous Scottish biscuit". I accept that the Scottish version may be deemed more famous but it must be recognised that the North Staffordshire Oatcake is an opposing foodstuff in it's own right and must be unbundled from this article. --Jpswade (talk) 16:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Done, see Staffordshire Oatcake --Jpswade (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks good, sir. Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not entirely happy that Lancashire and Yorkshire oatcakes now appear on a page called "Staffordshire oatcake". It might be better to call the new page "English oatcake". Please discuss at Talk:Staffordshire oatcake#Article title rather than here. -- Dr Greg  talk  16:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Scottish Oatcakes (Queen's Breakfast)

Under 'Scottish Oatcakes' it says Queen Elizabeth II typically has Scottish oatcakes for breakfast.

However, the source given [8](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/965079.stm) does not specify Scottish Oatcakes.

This should possibly be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.165.43 (talk) 20:14, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know the only oatcake manufacturer with a Royal warrant is Walkers who only make Scottish oatcakes. Of course, if you know different, feel free to share. If you feel that you must remove the source, then please replace it with another which does specify that the oatcakes are Scottish. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:47, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it's fairly clear the BBC are referring to Scottish oatcakes. You would never serve a Staffordshire oatcake with marmalade! It's usually fried with bacon or cheese. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. In the course of the discussion, the article was rewritten as a WP:BROADCONCEPT article, and the consensus is that it should stay at the current title. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

---

Oatcake → Scottish Oatcake – The oatcakes of Scottish origin are generally described as either 'Scottish Oatcakes' or 'Highland Oatcakes', the title of this article should reflect that. Jpswade (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2014 (UTC) --Jpswade (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

References to "Scottish oatcakes" are simply a hangover from the previous version of the article where it was necessary to differentiate them from the Staffordshire ones. Now that the article only covers Scottish oatcakes, it would be sensible to drop the word Scottish in the majority of cases where it occurs. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:48, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose No, "oatcakes" is fine. I thought you'd got over your campaign to prove the challenge for world domination by Staffs oatcakes. Oatcakes made in the highlands may note their provenance but they are widespread through the lowlands and islands as well. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
• Comment An observation I made while exploring the etymology of the oatcake is that the links and references in this article appear refer to them as Scottish/Highland Oatcakes or make some distinction that they are indeed from Scotland, unless of course the source is indeed Scottish. --Jpswade (talk) 15:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

No, the refs don't give your full handles as far as I can see, although I don't have access to them all. It's hardly a surprise if it's mentioned that they are from Scotland since, er, they are; no need for the qualification (the French Eiffel Tower). The Walkers one says Scottish in the url title but not on the web page itself. Please expand on which of the refs you are referring to and what they say but also see Derek's comment above. There is no significant distinction between oatcakes from the highlands, Orkney, Fife or the Borders and no reason to highlight the former provenance. You seem to base your views, here and in general on unsourced personal impressions. I'm puzzled that there is something to actually explore on the etymology of the term "oatcake" as the elements would appear self-evident. 00:26, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand. If you go onto the Walkers website, you'll see that even the packaging says "Highland Oatcakes", assisted by the "Product of Scotland" tag line on the logo, therefore even Walkers a company of Scotland describe them as such. That aside, this page should follow suit with Eccles cake, Yorkshire pudding, Bakewell tart, Manchester tart or indeed the Staffordshire oatcake, where the origin describes the cuisine. At this point it moves beyond personal opinion and to common sense. --Jpswade (talk) 08:01, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand. Aberlour is in the Highlands; Walkers tag theirs as Highland oatcakes. Stromness is in Orkney; Stockans tag theirs as Orkney oatcakes. Adamson's have Pittenweem oatcakes, Your Piece have Fife Cut oatcakes, Walls have Shetland oatcakes. They all make the same thing: oatcakes. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nobody describes Eccles cake as just "cake", nor Yorkshire pudding as just "pudding", nor Bakewell tart or Manchester tart as just "tart", not even the people who live in those areas. Whereas the term "oatcake" is widely understood to mean the Scottish variety, certainly throughout Britain (except Staffordshire & nearby) and probably in many parts of the world except where there's a local alternative. The Collins Concise Dictionary (4th ed 1999) defines "oatcake" as "a crisp, brittle unleavened biscuit made of oatmeal", with no alternative meanings, which clearly does not describe any of the soft pancake-like variants. -- Dr Greg  talk  11:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support This is not the primary topic and should become a disambig page. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:13, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Oatcakes are common fare in Nova Scotia and are a staple confection in places like Starbuck's, Blenz Coffee and Second Cup Coffee, and in private bakeries; whether they're the same as Scottish Oatcakes, I don't know, but nobody calls them that there; they've been part of Nova Scotia cuisine since......the Conquest maybe? (1763).Skookum1 (talk) 14:10, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe the Canadian version is sweetened, so is a different thing, though quite possibly a descendant. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

That's true. I have eaten both the Scottish oatcakes and the Nova Scotian ones. The former is basically thin and savoury whereas the latter is thick and sweet. A bit like a shortbread round made with oatmeal. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - There are other versions of oatcakes than Scottish oatcakes. In addition to Canadian oatcakes as described in the oatcake article and Nova Scotian oatcakes as described above, also see A Caledonian Feast, which describes how oatcakes "were long made in other parts of Britain too". NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Note A Caledonian Feast is a book written about Scottish Cuisine is written by an author Annette Hope whom "while studying at Edinburgh University fell in love with Scotland and its people, and Edinburgh has been her home ever since". She is known for writing about Scottish cuisine. The book was first published by Canongate Books in Scotland. This book is writing about Scottish oatcakes.-Jpswade (talk) 10:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

You appear to be basing this assumption purely on the grounds that a book written about the cuisine of a place by someone who lives in that place and published in that place is somehow restricted to covering matters concerning that place alone, rather than on actual knowledge of the contents and despite being given a quote from the book which contradicts this assumption. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Will you please explain here your repeat edit misrepresenting cited, not to say quoted, text, per my explanation above? The text is not difficult and it specifically does not say what you are changing it to. I also almost commented on your making this name change proposal then supporting your own proposition a second time below but gave the benefit of the doubt this was an oversight. Having re-inserted the second "vote" after it was struck, perhaps you'd like to strike it yourself to avoid suspicions about your intent. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Clear primary meaning and more often than not seen without the qualifier. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Now that the point of view issues have been dealt with and the article is written from more of a neutral point of view about the subject the problem that was originally outlined has gone away thus now rendering the suggested move redundant. Unless there are any objections or further comments I will withdraw the request. Thanks. --Jpswade (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV tag on GB section

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The discussion explaining the addition of a POV tag to the GB section is so far missing from this talk page. Edits by the POV nominator which misrepresent the source in the first paragraph of that section are discussed in the talk section above but the user has not responded to this either. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the POV tag because there is no POV issue and it doesn't appear that the tag placer started a discussion qualifying why. Information is properly verified in the first paragraph of the Great Britain section. This is not problematic whatsoever. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

As per the note in the above section: A Caledonian Feast is a book written about Scottish cuisine and is written by an author Annette Hope whom "while studying at Edinburgh University fell in love with Scotland and its people, and Edinburgh has been her home ever since". She is known for writing about Scottish cuisine. The book was first published by Canongate Books in Scotland. This author is writing from a biased point of view and not an authority on British cuisine. In addition to that, as per the profile of user Mutt Lunker (talk · contribs), they are of Scottish origin and seems to bring some bias towards this subject and seems unable/unwilling to discuss the subject from an objective point of view and instead seems to be more interested in attacking other editors that do not share his point of view than improving the article. --Jpswade (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• More content added to the article qualifying content in the Great Britain section:

In the book Great Britain, oatcakes have been described under a classification as being a "traditional British food" and "regional specialty". Fuller, Barbara (2005). Great Britain. Marshall Cavendish. p. 125. ISBN 0761418458.

 – NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Note The citation describes British breakfast and actually says "toast and marmalade (oatcakes in Scotland)". --Jpswade (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, oatcakes are mentioned twice in Great Britain, first within the context of my comment above, and also within the context of the note directly above. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:47, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment My search renders no results. Please could you provide a direct quote and a page reference. --Jpswade (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's the link: Fuller, Barbara (2005). Great Britain. Marshall Cavendish. p. 125. ISBN 0761418458.. I'm not going to retype content from the book because it's not copy/pasteable, and I have other things I'd prefer to do. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:16, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Then there only appears to be one reference to oatcake which is written as per the quote I gave above. It does not state that oatcakes are a "Traditional British Food", it says that they are eaten with them in Scotland instead of toast. --Jpswade (talk) 14:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Try this out, reworded in the article to "In the book Great Britain, oatcakes have been described as a "regional specialty" that may accompany traditional British foods, and are eaten instead of toast in Scotland." (Diff page). NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I have now identified the quote which refers to the "regional speciality" you mention. Thanks. --Jpswade (talk) 14:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• Another addition:

Leavened oatcakes have been documented in the fourth edition of The Universal British Directory of Trade, Commerce and Manufacture as being consumed in Lancashire, England. Barfoot, Peter, Wilkes, John (of Milland House, Sussex). The Universal British Directory of Trade, Commerce and Manufacture, Volume 4. p. 648.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

 – NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• Regarding the POV tag, the statement above that "This author is writing from a biased point of view and not an authority on British cuisine" is unfair unless substantiated. A person can like and live in a region and write about other regions without being biased. Credible book publishers decide what to publish based upon the intellectual integrity of the content within works. Since there's no substantiation regarding the above comment, I feel that it is prudent to remove the POV tag (which I have done). NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 16:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

At the time of writing the book in question was giving undue weight to the entire article. Now the article is written from a more neutral point of view it no longer applies in its present form. I have nothing more to add to the discussion in this section. --Jpswade (talk) 16:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Biscuit!?

Jpswade, are you seriously contending that a (Scottish style) oatcake is a biscuit? You have found a source which states this, so sadly you have a case that you have a reliable source on the matter but the source is plainly in error to anyone who has ever encountered one (can you clarify if you actually have?). This does not seem to be central to any of your other arguments unless you are making a bloody-minded point about insisting on material's inclusion on the basis of a disputed but in WP terms reliable source, in the knowledge that it is factually wrong. You really are making yourself look foolish in this campaign of yours. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I added Biscuit to the See also section as a similar food. Not sure if the comment above is regarding this or not. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

No, this, this and this is what I'm talking about. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:16, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The initial source refers to "biscuit (cookie)", i.e. biscuit in the more usual sense of a sweetened baked product. An oatcake is certainly not a cookie. Referring to it as such is at best confusing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:47, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

A "biscuit" can be savory, similarly an "oatcake" can be sweet, in particular in the United States and Canada. --Jpswade (talk) 15:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Scottish oatcakes, the point of discussion re this source, are not sweet and they are not, as the source wrongly states, a cookie. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. However, this article is not specific to Scottish oatcakes. --Jpswade (talk) 16:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The element in contention specifically regarded Scottish oatcakes. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH in England section

The England section's first sentence refers to oatcakes in Lancashire. The second sentence is sourced by material solely comparing Staffs and Scots oatcakes. The reference in the second sentence to "both" is unclear as only Staffs oatcakes and not Scottish ones are mentioned. There is no support for the Lancs version to be related to either, this being entirely speculative and the combo of sources is WP:SYNTH. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The copy in the England section may need improvement. However, I am opposed to and will revert the removal of valid content/references. --Jpswade (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I have copy edited this section to address this matter. Take a look. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

New image

An oatcake made from rolled oats, water, and a bit of shortening that was cooked on a baking stone over a wood fire

In my opinion, this image enhances the article as an example of an oatcake prepared with the food's primary ingredients (oats and water), and the caption provides useful information about a style of oatcake preparation. It has been removed a couple of times, so I moved it into a gallery section for the time being. Opinions and commentary appreciated. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This appears to be of a novel style, ingredients and appearance, presumably of the creator's own invention (see new picture discussion above, from several years ago). It does not represent any of the established styles discussed in the article and particularly is atypical of what it is possibly closest to, the Scottish style (be that the primary topic or not). I know of only one other type of oatcake which uses rolled oats, from the Your Piece company; as far as I know this is a very recent creation, since the earlier discussion. There are two broad styles from this company, both available in a variety of shapes/sizes: Handmade Oatmeal Oatcakes and Handmade Porridge Oatcakes. The spiel for the Handmade ‘Fife Cut’ Porridge Oatcakes refers to the "pioneering use of rolled oats" *. Should even these be illustrated in the article, their atypical nature ought to be noted (and visually these seem nothing like as atypical as the disputed image). To illustrate an atypical, non-standard and non-established version of something in a wiki article actively detracts from it and is in effect visual WP:OR.

*(As a note, contradictorily to the other product spiel and clearly erroneously the Handmade Porridge Oatcakes spiel contrasts use of porridge oats with rolled oats (the same thing) when clearly they intend a contrast with oatmeal, their other broad oatcake type.) Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The edit summary that the image is "quite representative of the primary ingredients used in oatcake preparation: oats and water" is not applicable as this would equally apply to a bowl of porridge. The image has to to be representative of an oatcake, which it is not. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

source [7] seems unreliable

I don’t really know if this is in the right place to note this, but it appears the source for the claim that oatcakes have been around since before the Roman invasion of the UK is a fictional mystery book.

I don’t know Wikipedia’s standards for sources but this seems incredibly out of place. 107.191.225.46 (talk) 09:07, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Tagged now. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:15, 12 September 2022 (UTC)