Talk:Obligations in Freemasonry/Archive 1

Archive 1

Duncans

I've removed the Duncans extracts since they're not comprehensive, all they do is repeat the last couple of lines of the obligation, not the whole thing. They're incomplete.ALR 23:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And again, they are only accurat insofar as they were correct in one particular area in NY State sometime in the 1800s. So what exactly is the point of this article that can't be stated in the main Freemasonry article? MSJapan 23:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

They are oaths in that they contain a penalty clause. That's the difference between an oath and an obligation. An obligation does not contain a penalty clause. Feel free to document the alleged specificity of the oaths in Duncans. Frater Xyzzy 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Please provide evidence that the incorrect obligations in the cited text are comprehensive. I note that you've actually removed the citation to the correct obligations and would also appreciate justification of that.ALR 23:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, citation fixed. Please provide a reference for the removed statement that the text is not comprehensive. It is, however, exemplar, which I don't think you can deny. A word changed here or there is silly to quibble over, don't you think. Frater Xyzzy 00:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The two cited examples, one authoritative and one not, do not match in any way. We're not in word either way territory but wholly different, which can be seen should one compare the references. The cited text is not an exemplar since it can only be found in one reference, not the half dozen which I have immediate access to. Please provide some referenece to indicate that it should be considered comprehensive.ALR 00:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow! What a hive of activity! Don't you guys take the weekend off? Frater Xyzzy 16:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Zager and Hochhaas

Does anyone seriously believe that a citation from a 25-year old book written by an anti-Mason is at all accurate? To be blunt, how does Zager know the obligations are accurate if he is not now and never was a Mason?

I can also find no other reference to Hochhass besides Zager, and you would think that there would be a way to independently verify his existence, much less that of the committee he chaired. MSJapan 03:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's no shortage of references to the accuracy of Duncan's. I particularly like the quote from this page:

"Every statement in the book is authentic, as every proficient Mason will admit to himself, if not to the public, as he turns over its pages."

I'd like to hear you directly state that in your experience as a Mason, Duncan's is wildly inaccurate, rather than the usual efforts to cast vague aspersion on it. But that would be lying, wouldn't it? :-) —Hanuman Das 03:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

As a past master, and member of two different constitutions, I find that there are significant and substantive differences and errors in Duncans.  ::Much of the wording is significantly different to that used and the obligations themselves bear little resemblance to those which I have taken myself and have led others through.

The rubric has has significant differences, to the extent that I'd call them errors. If someone tried to get into a Lodge using it they wouldn't get through the door, given the significance of the problem areas it is not representative.

Notwithstanding that, a line in a sales pitch could not be considered an authoritative statement on the accuracy of an unattributable working.

ALR 08:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Which is of course why I have not attempted to use it as a source ;-) Still, I myself am pretty sure that while as you say the wording may have changed (it is after all over 100 years old), the gist of what is sworn is not. Care to dispute that? —Hanuman Das 15:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The fundamental aspect is that one obligates oneself to protect the secrets, that is the signs, token and word of each of the three degrees. Of course given that simple fact we have a one line article which wouldn't justify an independent existence since it is covered in the opening paragraphs of the Freemasonry article already.

All the additional verbage is peculiar to Duncans, and has no place in Masonry .

ALR 15:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I note that the oaths are not included among the secrets. Are you trying to protect them as secrets anyway? —Hanuman Das 15:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I've provided a reference to them. I just don't see a need to regurgitate them.ALR 15:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

tit for tat trivia

Please note that when I say that the Duncans and Emulation obligations differ, I mean that most of what appears in duncans does not appear in emulation. The reference you've provided only accounts for the symbolic penalties, not the rest.ALR 16:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but to go any further in discussing the differences, you'd need to cite a comparative work of some sort. An historian whose done an analysis of differences, perhaps with an explanation thereof. So let's leave out POV interpretations of the differences unless such work exists. —Hanuman Das 16:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

rm'ed obligations

We can't have the obligations verbatim in the article, as they violate copyright (and not citing a source doesn't change that), so I have removed them. MSJapan 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The text in question is in the public domain. Everything published in the US before 1923 is in the public domain. The site from which they were sourced hosts only public domain sources and does not claim copyright. —Hanuman Das 19:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Hanuman, there are a number of things on the sacredtext webpage that are copyrighted, such as this and the original authors (or their heirs) are fighting the inclusion of them. In fact, the one I have just cited was the basis of a copyright violation claim (though not in court) on the appropriate article. So, just because it's on sacredtexts, doesn't make it automatically public domain.--Vidkun 23:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the copyright argument is wholly appropriate. Whilst the text is published at present I have a feeling that the contents of Duncans itself are probably public domain, given the age of the origination. However I am not a legal beagle.

I'm not convinced of the encyclopedic value of including the text, it does rather remind me of a breathless and excitable attempt at exposure rather than in creating a useful article.

I think the more pertinent point is that it's not representative of the obligations in any of the rituals I have available to me; Emulation, Taylors, Nigerian, Malta (unpublished), Kilwinning (unpublished), two other Scots rituals another private English ritual. I've also in the past seen translations of German, French and Swedish and don't recognise it from there. I've sat in meetings in Canada and haven't heard it, although many Lodges there use Emulation.

If we are going to have an article about Obligations, and I'm not convinced of that, then it needs to be a discussion of Obligations in general rather than one specific one whose veracity is unproven.

ALR 19:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

From the sacred-texts webpage "The texts presented here are either original scans from books and articles clearly in the public domain, material which has been presented elsewhere on the Internet, or material included under fair use conditions in printed anthologies." It seems that s-t (or the owners/maintainers of the site) think that if someone else copied copyright material and placed it one the web, it's fair use. It isn't. Now, while this is not an issue for duncan'c, can Duncan's be verified? Is it a reliable source? I think not.--Vidkun 00:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding the idea of verifiability. WP:V specificly states that one should not attempt to prove that the facts given in sources are true, that would be original research. Verifiability simply means that a fact listed in Wikipedia can be referenced to a published source. Reliability is determined primarily by the fact that the material was published by a third party rather than self-published. So from WP pov, it is both verifiable and reliable. —Hanuman Das 00:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly - we can verify Duncan wrote it, but we can't verify that it is an accurate representation. WP:RS is made for that. Guidelines can't be applied in a vacuum, meaning that even if it passes V, does it pass RS? If it does, then it is usable, and I'm not so sure Duncan's does. MSJapan 00:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

We don't have to verify that it is an accurate representation. We just have to identify who said it. It's also considered reliable as long as it has a reliable publisher. You seem to be confused about what these terms mean on WP. —Hanuman Das 05:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, did you know that Duncan's is actually the official ritual in the State of Missouri Prince Hall Affiliation? Now, in your opinion, is Prince Hall Freemasonry or not? —Hanuman Das 05:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Reliability depends on a whole host of issues, just being published isn't actually enough. In that sense the publication is probably a reliable instance of the content but that doesn't actually indicate whether the content itself is reliable or not. We have no indication of the purpose, the authority of the originator or any vetting process so we are unable to make a judgement.ALR 13:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

HD - I will take your statement about Missouri PH using Duncan in good faith... although I would want to have a reliable citation to back the claim if you wanted to state this in the article. That said, the problem we have is that the Masonic ritual varies widely between different jurisdictions. Something that may be in the ritual of one jurisdiction is not in the ritual of another. Thus, to in order to quote any ritual, you would have to add disclaimers such as: "According to the ritual used in the State of Missouri, Prince Hall Affilliation, the obligation reads...." or "According to Emulation Ritual used in England the obligation reads....". And to be NPOV, you would have to give examples of many different obligations to demonstrate the diversity. Blueboar 14:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Move

I've reworded to reflect the wording used by the Craft rather than it's detractors and exposure fetishists, however the references to Oaths still stands in the text. The point about Prince Hall was clumsily put and given the mix of direct quote and personal wording was neither readable or useful, hopefully it's now clearer. fwiw I'm not a fan of the he said, she said style of writing, so I've slimmed that down as well.

I'm not convinced that the copy of the obligations actually adds any value to the article.

ALR 13:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it really doesn't. I still firmly believe that the Obligations add nothing, because it's sort of like "So what?" There is no point being made, and no real information being conveyed to the reader, because the "Obligations" aren't accurate as far as I'm concerned. OTOH, I believe that HD feels he is doing a needed disservice to the Craft by "exposing" 200-year old ritual. Otherwise I can't see an encyclopedic aim for this, and I would really like to know how HD knows PH in Missouri uses Duncan, and no one else seems to. ALR, would you care to add in the UGLE notice regarding the current disposition of the so-called "blood oaths", as I think this is what the real point of this "article" is. MSJapan 22:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The link that's been referenced appears to be an accurate representaiton of the preface to the ritual which highlights that the symbolic penalties have been removed from the obligation text.

What it doesn't refer to is all the other drivel which was never removed because it wasn't there.

ALR 16:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

So you say. :-) Frater Xyzzy 16:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome to do your own research, the reference is fully identified and available to anyone who chooses to purchase it.ALR 16:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Duncan's - redux

As you know, there has been some discussion over the validity of Duncan's Masonic Monitor. One problem is that Duncan does not tell us which Jurisdiction his exposé is for. He never says "Grand Lodge of New York" or "Grand Lodge of Virginia" or what ever. This runs contrary to the practice in most US Grand Lodges. They tend to be very specific in their obligations. The one place where Duncan does get specific is in the obligation for the Royal Arch Degree... where he uses the phrase:

• "I furthermore promise and swear, that I will support the Constitution of the General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America..."

Somethng about this struck me as being odd... so I looked up the history of the General Grand Chapter. Volume I of “A History of Royal Arch Masonry” by Everett R. Turnbull & Ray V. Denslow, published in 1956, states (On Page 413) that, at the 1816 Triennial, The General Grand Chapter adopted the title “General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States.”

Note the difference:

• Duncan used "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America", whereas
• The General Grand Chapter itself used "General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States.

For those who don't get the subtle difference, it is like someone quoting from the "Constitution of the United American States"... sounds legit, but when you look at it closely it doesn't work. Duncan's is demonstratibly in error, which supports the claim that it can not be said to be accurate for any Jurisdiction. Blueboar 14:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. I wonder what that was all about, given that AFAIK, the GGC isn't a higher authority than a GC, but rather an umbrella group. In short, the obligation shouldn't have anything to do with GGC, unless it is in addition to following the rules of one's constituent chapter. MSJapan 14:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

well to be fair, ... the full text reads: "I furthermore promise and swear, that I will support the Constitution of the General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America; together with that of the Grand Chapter of this State, under which this Chapter is holden; that I will stand to and abide by all the by-laws, rules, and regulations of this Chapter, or of any other Chapter of which I may hereafter become a member." So it does add the rules of the constituent GC and Chapter ... On the other hand I took a look at my own Chapter's obligation and while it specifically includes the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons in the State of New York, it does not mention GGC at all. I don't know if other Jurisdictions include the GGC however. But the point is that Duncan is using the wrong name for the GGC... as I added above, it's the same as talking about the "United American States" instead of the "United States of America". It isn't valid. Blueboar 15:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

That's why I asked. I know we don't mention GGC, and there's a fair number of states that never recognized GGC. I'm pretty sure it's only an umbrella group. MSJapan 15:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added a statement highlighting this, as it supports the doubt surrounding Duncan's authenticity. I am wondering if this is enough to substantiate deleting the quotes. If they are not authentic Masonic Oaths, do we not mislead the reader by including them? Blueboar 00:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There's always the question of history, though. Since we can date Duncan no earlier than 1816, and given the accepted date of 1826 for Duncan's book, if we could look at a contemporaneous obligation and it didn't have a GGC reference, that would certainly prove a reliability issue. For all we know, Duncan might have seen a draft rather than a final product. MSJapan 00:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should discount the possibility that Duncan never saw a either draft or an original... but made up his own ritual based on the more or less contemporanious Morgan Exposé. In any case, I do get what you mean. While his authenticity can be doubted, it can not completely disproven without a reliable version to compare it against. Blueboar 01:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed oaths

Grye pointed something out to me, and he was right. The oaths as posted here do not match Duncan's on the Sacred Text Archive, and thus must be from some other source, and are therefore copyvio from somewhere. MSJapan 04:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Without the (incorrect) quotes from Duncan, this article does not really say much. Prod? Blueboar 19:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, boys, they match exactly. Didn't think anybody would look, did you? Frater Xyzzy 22:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder how the use of of intentional deception on talk pages to justify an attempt to delete an article accords with Wikipedia policy. Should we look into it? Frater Xyzzy 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead. BTW, are you Frater or Hanuman? MSJapan 23:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

They match exactly. It's fairly easy to match up the content you mass deleted with the content here. Since it does match up perfectly your edit reason of "They do not match Duncan's on the Internet Sacred Text Archive, so they are copyvio from someplace" is completly false, and i'll be reverting that edit. Seraphim 22:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of problems with it, including inconsistency with hard copy versions. But more to the point the linguistic hurdles which justify keeping demonstrably inaccurate material in the article create a clumsy unencyclopedic mess. The actual version of one current version of the obligations is referenced and publically available in open source, more can be referenced if required.ALR 22:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I am removing it again on other grounds. The article is entitled Obligations in Freemasonry ... Duncan's is demonstratably not a legitimate representation of Obligations in Freemasonry. The jurisdiction that he mentions never existed. Thus it is not an accurate account of any approved Masonic ritual. Now, if you want to change the title of the article to something like "Obligations thought by many to be in Freemasonry, but actually NOT in Freemasonry", or "Duncan's pseudo-masonic ritual" ... feel free to add it back. Blueboar 00:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It's simply a historical example, and being presented as such. ALR if you can find more up to date material to replace it with i'm sure that would be very beneficial to the article. However you should replace what is currently there with that new material, not delete the material and expect someone else to go find what your talking about. Seraphim 02:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Snag is, it's not a historical example, and I'll reiterate that there are references to the obligations, however given that wikipedia is not a repository of source material I don't believe that it is useful to quote a single example when so many assured variants of ritual exist.ALR 08:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't a historical example... if it were actually a valid masonic ritual, THEN it would be a historical example. If it was even a possibly valid masonic ritual I might call it such... but it is not. It is a proven fake. The use of a non-existing jurisdiction completely invalidates it. It would be like quoting a document that read "We the People of the United American States..." in an article about the US constitution. It isn't a ligit example. Blueboar 03:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh I realize I never cleared this up. It can be proven that there was a grand chapter referring to itself as the "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America" in 1854. Here is a link proving it's existance. Next argument! Seraphim 07:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Odd... since according to the official proceedings of the General Grand Chapter, its name at the time was the "General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States" (which is cited in Turnbull, Everett R. & Denslow, Ray V., A History of Royal Arch Masonry, Volume I, p. 413, published in 1956) ... I double checked this with the current General Grand Chapter (The General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons International) and they sent me a photocopy of the relevant pages of their proceedings (which they tell me are published, although they did not send the page with the publication info... i'll have to get back to you on that). Throughout its history the GGC was consistant in using the form "General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons..." the only thing that changed was the regional indicator (North America, United States, International, etc.).

So we have a dilemma... who is correct? A register of fraternal bodies in the State of California , or the minutes and bylaws of the body itself? Given that those compiling the register can make errors, I would go with the official records of the body itself. I am not saying that the register is an unreliable document under RS... only that I think that the records of the GGC are MORE reliable. Blueboar 14:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Original research

Some of what certain editors are trying to add is original research. You can't just say that something didn't exist. You have to cite a source which says that it didn't exist. You can't just say that a government source must be unreliable, you must cite another source which says that that particular government record may be unreliable. You can't just make assumptions from the fact that you have access to documents which use a certain designation, you must have a secondary historical source which discusses the naming conventions of the time. Frater Xyzzy 15:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I do cite a secondary source. A source which quotes the proceedings of the General Grand Chapter, which lists all the names that the GGC ever went by (from its founding in the 1790s through to the 1950s). In each case, the GGC uses the phrasing "General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons" as opposed to Duncan's "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter". It is not OR... it is in the book. While this is supported by the actual proceedings... I have not added that to the article because I do not have the publishing info yet... and doing so without the publication info would violate OR.

I would contend that it is up to those who claim that Duncan's is legit to find a reliable secondary source to verify its legitimacy... and that to state that Duncan's is authentic without verification is OR.

As to the State Register... actually, I do incorrectly assume something there... I am not sure that it IS a government record. The title page gives the authors and publisher... but not that it is an kind of "official" document. (do we know more about the registry?) As for saying it is unreliable... I don't. I say that given two conflicting sources, each of which is reliable to some degree, I think the offical records of the GGC are MORE reliable than the register, which seems to have its facts wrong. Yes, this is my opinion, and others are free to disagree... I have not included my opinion in the article, and is fine to state one's opinion of sources on a talk page... that's what talk pages are for.

Blueboar 16:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the issue about the publication information is more verifiability rather than OR. You have the material, you just don't have the information to allow an independent check.ALR 16:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Use in Prince Hall

"It is generally known that the Grand Lodge of Missouri, PHA, uses Duncans Masonic Ritual and Monitor (1866) as its official ritual" [1] Frater Xyzzy 15:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it a little disingenuous to take a single statement from an analysis of whether Prince Hall GLs obtained their various rituals from legitimate or illegitimate sources as significant evidence, particularly where the rest of the sentence, which you're taking out of context highlights that other PHA GLs use the official version.ALR 15:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

INcidentally a tripod page constitutes self published and doesn't meet the needs of Reliable Sourcing, that's even before you misquote it.ALR 16:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Motivations

OK, it's now clear that the motivaiton from some is to get, yet another, article which is predominantly made up of a huge chunk of Duncans ritual. The actual article content on the subject of Obligations as such is two paragraphs long, the rest is a cut and paste with an explanation of why the cut and pasted content is both unrepresentative and inaccurate.ALR 15:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

I would like to note that Freemasons should not be editing the article at all, only discussing on the talk page. We've had these sorts of edit wars before, and they have always been precipitated by those who violate Wikipedia's quite clear rules about conflict of interest|. Specificly,

Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but if you have a conflict of interest, you should exercise great caution. In particular, you should:

1. avoid editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors;
2. avoid participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors;

These clear rules are clearly being violated here. Frater Xyzzy 16:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

And I note that this very argument has been a major cause of discussion on the talk page of that guideline since it was adopted... It is patently rediculous. By your logic, no Catholic should edit articles on Catholicims, no one with a PHD in physics should edit an article on science. I will also point out that you can flip this argument around ... and say that under COI no one who belongs to any group of organization that opposes Freemasonry should edit an article on masonic topics, for they have a conflict of interest insofar as their organization has an anti-masonic agenda. Wiki-lawyering can be played both ways.

No... the COI guideline clearly does not intend that people can not edit articles that relate to things they are involved with... it means they must be cautious not to let their affiliations influence their editing. Masons should not edit as Masons, they should edit with the best interest of Wikipedia in mind. I think the Masons who edit this article do have the best interests of Wikipedia in mind ... they want factual and verifiable information presented, and want to delete inaccurate information, supposition and inuendo. Blueboar 16:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Funny, that is the excat same argument someone brought up several times (thru sockpuppets even) on several other articles related to Masonry... just saying. WegianWarrior 17:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of socks, any reason why a new editor (who acts a lot like Frater Xyzzy, who crated this article) would be interested in this article, if he wasn't Frater Xyzzy editing under an IP? Incidentally, we won't find a match, as according to his talk page, he recently moved. Just food for thought. MSJapan 17:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Frater Xyzzy (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)?

"...I am am member of Golden Dawn and know 999 because he likes to attend G.D. events, though he has not joined. I met A.R. through 999 at a Golden Dawn conference in Austin, where I lived also until mid-December. I now live in Seattle..."diff

Frater Xyzzy is indefinitely blocked for sock puppetry.diff- WeniWidiWiki 20:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to popular belief, Seattle is not the parochial small town it's made out to be. Frater Xyzzy 21:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Talking point - oaths discredit Freemasonry?

Just as a talking point, I'd like to present I in no way view the inclusion of these Obligations as discrediting Freemasonry. They appear to me to be perfectly decent oaths which any bloke should be able to take without fearing that they conflict with the laws of his country or with the tenets of his religion. I am at a loss to understand why Freemasons should wish to hide or discredit the sources of these Obligations. My intent is that the information be available in Wikipedia. If the Masons want to hedge it about with denials and defences, that's their own business, as long as the information they present is cited and does not distort what the source actually say. I am annoyed they they will not allow be to cite source, even when I have tried to quote them after being falsely accused of misrepresenting them. There are two sources which indicate that these oaths are used in some Prince Hall jurisdictions, but every attempt to clearly quote and cite taht information is reverted. Frater Xyzzy 20:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Your statement shows several areas where you misunderstand what is going on here:

• "I am at a loss to understand why Freemasons should wish to hide or discredit the sources of these Obligations"

1) no one is trying to "hide" anything. 2) The main reason why we "discredit" the source is that (as we keep saying, but you don't want to believe) it is not accurate. There are hundreds of Masonic jurisdictions in the world... each has a different ritual and different obligations. Even if Duncan's is correct for one of them (and here I refer to the single PH jurisdiction for which we have any evidence to support saying it is correct), it is incorrect for all the others. Thus, to single out this one example gives it vast undue weight.

• "...as long as the information they present is cited and does not distort what the source actually say"

you imply that the information "the Masons" are presenting is not cited (it is), and distorts what the source actually says... where do we distort the source? and you neglect to address the issue of what to do if including the source in a certain way is itself a distortion? Blueboar 01:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Why Include?

I have noticed a pattern going on here that should be familiar to many of us on both sides... One side of the debate wants to delete something (be it a reference, a quotation, a statement or even an entire article), and the other side argues against the delete. What never seems to occur is any discussion of why the material should be included in the first place. No one ever seems to argue for the material.

So I thought I would ask. Why should the material from Duncan's be included in the article? Blueboar 21:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

To add to this, as noted in the AfD, I feel not that this is a "secret" (it isn't) and shouldn't be revealed, but rather that this article is unencyclopedic - this article should not be a cut and paste of an example, especially a questionable one like Duncan's. What it should be is a discussion about Masonic obligations in general, and this has already been adequately covered in the main article. If not, it's not going to take an entire article to cover it, but rather a few sentences, which can also be added to the main article in the appropriate section. MSJapan 04:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Of the 50 regular Blue Lodges, 40-x PH Lodges (not saying anything, just adding), & any other "Lodges", just in the USA, only one of which can maybe be correctly cited as using something even close to these obligations. To say they are "the" Freemasonic Obligations is, by definition, unencyclopedic. Grye 05:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Where in the article does it say that "they are "the" Freemasonic Obligations". If it says anything in the article to that effect that statement should be removed. They are an example of Masonic Obligations used in a certain version of the ritual over 100 years ago, that's all it should be represented as. Seraphim 05:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

uh... If they are not the obligations, then the information is unencyclopedic, & conversation's over. Grye 09:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

We keeps cycling back to a) why group A feels we should remove the quote, and b) why Group B opposes removing them. Will someone please answer my question and articulate why quoting from Duncan's ritual is important to the article. Why should the material be included?

I am beginning to think that the only reason that people are opposing deletion (of the quote here, and of the article at the AfD) is that a particular group of editors is in favor of deletion (essentially saying: If they want it out, I want it in). I hope I am wrong as to motivations ... but if I am, then someone should be able to explain why including the quote is so important to this article. Blueboar 13:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is suppossed to be an extencive collection of information not limited to the size constraints of paper encyclopedias. Adding an example of what the article discussing is beneficial to the article and therefore it is included. Since the Duncan's text is being presented as an example of Obligations that were in use in 1866, nothing being presented is misleading, and it gives readers an idea of what masonic obligations might look like. If you can add NPOV, verfiable, sourced content to an article, that increases the usability and usefulness of the article to a 3rd party reader that is always a good thing. Seraphim 19:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you ... at least someone finally answered the question. I disagree with the reasoning (I feel that, given the variations between the hundreds of rituals in use - both in 1866 and today - giving an example IS misleading; and that using an example for which there is doubt as to its authenticity is doubly so) but I understand it. Is that the only argument for inclusion?Blueboar 19:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Can I ask you to articulate why you feel that it is beneficial?

ALR 20:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

These aren't all that dissimilar from ones in use in Colorado (as they apparently are for our brethren across the "big pond"). Certainly not exact, but not dissimilar. I know that Colorado's are an amalgam of different jurisdictions (Kansas and Nebraska, I believe) and that most of that work came to us from other locations (i.e., the east coast - MA, NY, etc.). It is quite different in some instances from other jurisdictions (Oklahoma, for example). Having said that, I'm actually ambivalent about the request to delete/retain the Duncan's text. Perhaps some clarification of Duncan's as a source may alleviate some of the concerns expressed in this quite expansive discussion. As it stands, it appears in the article that it is a highly-regarded source. As an historian, I do know that there was quite a bit of "creative liberties" associated with even "authoritative" sources even only 150 years ago, let alone 600 (where my research was focused). While any article about the obligations of Masonry is fallacious in the extreme, it is indicative of what 'such an obligation' may have been. For that reason, I'm more inclined (with the appropriate clarifications) to leave it in the article. Bdevoe 20:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well would it not be more representative to actually have something that we can be assured is an accurate obligation, rather than one which we're not entirely clear on? fwiw I don't actually believe that have an example adds anything and there are 'impact' reasons for not including ritual in WP. I have some sympathy for the view that someone genuinely searching WP for information in advance will have some of the value of the ritual taken away from him or her should they find a chunk of ritual, accurate or otherwise, in an article.ALR 21:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Would not that same petitioner find Duncan's and assume that it is also accurate? I think the argument is specious from that perspective. I do not have anything that's been published that I can quote as a true accounting of the obligations. Maybe we can discuss the possibility of not including the actual text but rather a synopsis of the different degrees? Or perhaps that each obligation builds upon the previous one(s)? Bdevoe 21:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

My point is that I disagree with having ritual excerpts here at all, however there is a body of editors in WP who feel it is necessary to copy Duncans into WP, this diff rather sums it up. fwiw if you look at the article again you'll find that a genuine publication is referenced, but personally I do not wish to type the content out, for the reason previously outlined.ALR 21:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, I took a look at the 1827 2nd ed. of Morgan's book, and the obligations therein contained do not match Duncan, even in the first part of the first obligation, so Duncan isn't sourced from there. MSJapan 21:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Nelson King

The quote from Nelson King, "Prince Hall Grand Lodges use what we would call the American Ritual, either Duncan's or Webb's, which is very similar to what the two St. Johns Lodges of London use", isn't all that clear. Given that Webbs and Duncans have differences, which ritual has similarities to the St Johns Lodges of London? Even in conjunction with the deHoyos quote, which I've now attributed to Heredom although that could use confirmation, all we have is an assertion that one PH GL uses it, and that from a discussion of where PH GLs got hold of their ritual from with the recognition that some are derived from unattributable exposures. I think we're into giving usage more weight than is justified, one GL of 40 odd PH and a couple of hundred other GLs? a tad fringy to me. ALR 20:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, it may be because English is my second language, but I would argue that the 'which' in the sentence points towards Webb's. IE: the qoute is stating that "Prince Hall Grand Lodges use what we would call the American Ritual, either Duncan's or Webb's" and "(Webb's) is very similar to what the two St. Johns Lodges of London use.". WegianWarrior 20:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That's my interpretation as well, as it stands it is very ambigious.ALR 21:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That's precisely why it should simply be quoted. It is for the reader, not us, to interpret. Jefferson Anderson 21:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Given that we only have evidence of one GL from a good couple of hundred, unless we can pin it down then it gives undue weight to the assertion.ALR 21:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

could this help answer the question? The Webb ritual is commonly called the "American" ritual. (it is also the basis for the majority of rituals used in the US... before each GL started "tinkering"). Which brings up another point... I think we should include a list of some of the more common ritual traditions... Preston, Webb, Emulation, etc. come to mind. I am sure we can come up with more examples with a bit of research (NOT OR... research into what reliable sources tell us). At the moment, the reader is going to come away with the impression that Duncan is all there is (which is part of the problem with quoting Duncan... or any other ritual... it does indeed give too much weight to one of many rituals). Blueboar 21:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Taylors, Nigerian, Standard, Complete, Malta, Bristol (and that's only in England).ALR 21:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

At last count, I had 47 workings in England not counting private unpublished materials; hence the problem. TBH, I much prefer the discussion portion of the article than the c/p portion for purposes of this encyclopedia article. The more I look at it, sourcing issues aside, the less I think the text blocks add anything of value. Also, unless someone knows otherwise for sure, I believe King is Canadian, not that I think it matters at all. MSJapan 21:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You mean the bit that's already in the Freemasonry article......ALR 21:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and of the four craft lodges I belong to there are three different rituals, the Research Lodge uses Emulation to open and close.ALR 21:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing that there are many many many many versions of ritual out there. Just like in all of the other freemasonry articles that talk about ritual, there is wording in the article to alert the reader to the fact that lodges use different ritual. That is NOT a valid reason to removed sourced, verifiable, relevant material from an article. Wikipedia is inclusionist not exclusionist. "I don't think this should be in here" is not a valid reason for removal. Seraphim 23:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It is when it's not terribly good. There seems to be this recurring issue that just because something is in print or posted someplace, that it's a totally valid an usable source, and whatever it says is worthwhile. I do not think that c/p'ed Duncan's is a good idea, because this is not an article about "Historical Obligations in Masonry", it is an article about "Obligations in Masonry". The title itself presumes a uniformity that doesn't exist. "So why not change it?" you might ask. Well, that's easy. It's all OR. It's simply words, so no one has done research on it, and therefore we can't really do anything either. What we've got now as your "verifiable, citable article" is another pro and con argument over differences in phrasing, and a load of cut and pasted garbage of no value to the article content that is furthermore readily locatable by anyone who types "Duncan's" into Google. WP is not a dumping ground for things from other sites. The text adds nothing ot the article, and as BB has said, it adds undue weight. MSJapan 01:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article does it ever say that "these are current and up to date versions of ritual". Your problem is that your looking at the article from the perspective of a freemason who knows what the obligations look like. Wikipedia is not written for an expert audience, if someone comes to this article and reads it over, and the duncan's text isn't there the first thing they are going to think of is "ok.. what do these things actually consist of". An example in this case is 100% relevant. Also we've already proven that the version of the ritual in Duncan's was used. The reason I fight to keep stuff like this on WP is because you guys try to abuse Wiki-Procedure to remove content under false pretences, and that's just wrong, and very anti-wikipedia. Wikipedia is suppossed to be a fountain of knowledge, this article is a sub article, which means it should contain detailed information about it's sub topic. The cycle that you tend to take, Pick article, Remove Content, AFD what's left, is Abusive and not how wikipedia is suppossed to work. Editors are suppossed to improve articles, not fight to get them deleted. Seraphim 02:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was wondering how long the "pretend to help improve the article" phase would last. Sheesh... Frater Xyzzy 02:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Frater, you're not one to talk about abuse of procedure, since you're markedly hostile to Freemasonry and have been since you first got here, and you're editing under a sock because you're banned. Second of all (and here's the key), where does this article state that this is historical? Not in the title, certainly, and not in the article. What value does this have anyway, if the majority of the content is no longer a valid usage? Furthermore, we cannot cut and paste entire sections of text from other websites, public domain or not. We can link to it, but an encyclopedia is not a reproduction; it is a summation. That's why (as I said in the first place), we need to discuss obligations in general, not give specific examples. For example, Duncan in 1866 doesn't match Morgan in key areas in 1826! However, to say that requires synthesis on an editor's part from primary sources, which is WP:OR. Read it. Anyhow, if the two of you are done playing games, let's move on. If not, go play in the sandbox, because the both of you are too hung up on yourselves to be of any contributive value to this. MSJapan 03:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Uh, I'm afraid you're getting some levels of reality mixed up here. The account, Frater Xyzzy, was blocked, not banned, so that it could not be used by another person who had never used it in the first place. That's your first confusion. Your second is about verifiability, which only means that all statements and quotes in the article can be attributed to a source. They are. So there's no original research. But hey, you're the one with the conflict of interest and I'm not. That's clear enough to anyone who bothers to look at your edits. Ciao. Frater Xyzzy 03:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If you think there is OR then put up a ref request there. The only reason the verifiability section is in there in the first place, is because (blueboar you or ALR i forget who) engaged in OR trying to throw out the entierty of duncans as a bogus source. I'm all for tossing out that whole Reliability paragraph since "Art deHoyos, a Past Master of McAllen Lodge No. 1110, AF&AM, McAllen, Texas, confirms that "It is generally known that the Grand Lodge of Missouri, PHA, uses Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor (1866) as its official ritual"" is more then enough to validate the Duncan content in the article. Seraphim 03:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You're conflating separate issues again, as well as trying to say WP:V trumps all, which it does not. One, I do not want Duncan's in there because it can just as easily be referenced in externals and we do not need to duplicate it in its entirety. Two, the "disagreement over GGC" is the OR; it's synthesis, which was forced to be put in there to show lack of validity of Duncan's, because using modern ritual would be copyvio. Three, everything else was lifted out of the main article, and therefore doesn't need to be here. Four, it's one thing if this article dicusses content of obligations in general (if sourced), but it doesn't; historical or not, the full text paste gives undue weight to a ritual which is a hodgepodge (read the preface to the book to see what Duncan consulted) and is maybe used in one state (and it's probably changed by now) out of hundreds of jurisdictions and thousands of rituals. Five, this article was written by a POV-pusher in the first place who was subsequently banned, is part of an Arbcom case, and is now hiding behind an IP. See WP:POINT. MSJapan 04:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

God you're dense. Let me spell it out for you. I was not banned, nor was I ever part of an Arbcom case. The account, Frater Xyzzy, was blocked because the admins are too stupid to tell the difference between two unique individuals if they work at the same large corporation. The person they confused my with is in fucking Boulder, Colorado. I am in Seattle, which is why I'm using this friggin' IP instead of using an account, so the stupid corrupt administration of this site can't continue to make the same stupid mistake again, which they would do if I don't make it too bleeding obvious for them to ignore. Frater Xyzzy 04:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If I might paraphrase this, Your problem is that your looking at the article from the perspective of a freemason who knows what the obligations look like. as Your problem is that you know what you're talking about. It made me smile anyway...ALR 10:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

He's writing for a masonic audience. That was my point. Don't put words in my mouth. Seraphim 17:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Turning the question round

I asked the question above, and didn't get an answer, Why is including any obligation in the article beneficial and encyclopedic. Now rather than debating the merits or otherwise of one source I think it would be useful to examine that issue. Is there any benefit including any example of the obligations in the article?ALR 10:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, wow, the "add a new section heading and pretend nobody answered the question" ploy. You guys are so predictable. Anybody who wants to see the pattern need only look at Talk:Jahbulon and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jahbulon (3rd nomination). Just because you have the time to engage in these coordinated diversions doesn't mean anybody else has to play your stupid little games. Answers were given in the previous section. Please stop simply dismissing others people's reasoning simply because you have your own agenda. Frater Xyzzy 11:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim stated Adding an example of what the article discussing is beneficial to the article and therefore it is included to which I responded Can I ask you to articulate why you feel that it is beneficial?.

There has been no response to my specific question or the general point about why including an example is useful, all the discussion has focussed on sourcing.

I'd welcome your view on that point, if you can do so without becoming abusive.

ALR 11:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

"Adding an example of what the article is duscussing is beneficial to the article" is the answer to your question about "why including an example is useful". If that content is removed people leave the article without any concept of what masonic obligations are beyond "Oaths". It's almost like creating a page about the color red, without including an image of the color, sure the reader learns about the topic, but they have no context for what they learned. Adding an example is useful since it illustrates what the obligations may look like in ways we cannot through the text. Wikipedia is not suppossed to work like this, you cannot censor the material on here simply because you don't want it in the article, you guys tried to remove the material by hiding behind copy vio, going as far as to lie and state that the text was not from Duncan's when 2 seconds of checking confirmed that, and when that path failed you swapped to "duncans is provably false" because of the name thing, and then when we found sources to counter that, your now on "this is useless information", what is going to be your next argument? Seraphim 17:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, I'd like to point out here that when someone complained about COI, one of the responding admins encountered the same Duncan's text issue I did because of the way Google works, so you might as well drop that. That was not what was used in the AfD, so it frankly doesn't matter anymore.

Why is it that when someone asks you a question you cannot answer, you feel a need to restate the history of the issue, or misquote policy, as if that makes you right, rather than simply not respond at all? The rest of us are capable of reading talk pages. You seem to think WP policies apply one at a time, when they do not.

"Adding an example is beneficial"? Fine, but how about "is the example valid or representative?" There is no representative Masonic ritual, and therefore any example is not representative, especially when the example is used in one state (maybe) and is 140 years old. I can't find historical obligations that agree within 40 years of each other, and you want to claim that something over three times as separated is valid?

That is why it needs to be removed. However, you would rather make a faulty assumption over what is secret because you don't know any better. The only secrets are modes of recognition, as stated in the main Freemasonry article. you're only interested in adding in material which supports your preconceived point of view, and you've been doing this ever since you came to these articles. This is going to stop. MSJapan 17:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, ignoring the rant about process, which I don't really think is helping in trying to achieve a reasonable compromise, I'm wanting to explore the encyclopedic value issue in more depth. I have no wish to censor anything, but I expect a balanced and representative discussion of the topics in the portfolio. What I'm trying to do is to identify the purpose for the inclusion. Once we have a purpose, then we can find a solution. As I interpret your statements, including an example is useful because including an example is beneficial, notwithstanding that I do note that your later comments go some way towards articulating your position.

I'd disagree that providing an example provides context per se, the context is provided in the Freemasonry article, where obligations are discussed alongside discussion of governance, privacy and secrets, those being signs, grips and words. I suspect what you're getting at is illustration of the subject, rather than contextualisation. Is that the case?

ALR 20:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes Illustration is a better word. I cannot understand why you guys are up to your 4th attempt through wikilawyering to remove this content. I don't understand why the inclusion of this is such an issue. The article without the example is less useful to the reader, then the article with the example, and by the time the reader gets to the duncan text they have already learned that obligations change from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and that the quoted text is over 140 years old. The point the deletionists keep trying to make is that somehow the reader will be confused by the quoted text and think that they are current obligations, or "the masonic obligations", however if the person reads the article there is NO WAY they should come to that conclusion. Readers aren't stupid. EDIT: Oh and for the record, MSJ already came up with the 4th attempt to get it removed, see his rediculious claim that the duncan text falls under wikipedias policies for copying "complete text" found below. Seraphim 21:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well the article without an illustration is exactly the same as that which is already in the Freemasonry article.

Appreciating that we have a significant volume of text related to the unknown provenance, accuracy and applicability of the chosen illustration, selected from a potential range of several hundred candidates, can I just ask you to clarify why illustrating the topic with a 140 year old extract from a document of unclear provenance and usage is helpful to the reader?

Can you think of approaches which might provide a more assuredly useful illustration?

ALR 21:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I'd have no issue with removing all the text where you guys claim that Duncan's is not a reliable source, I agree it needlessly dirty's up the article. There are atleast 5 sources that show the text is reliable, and that the Grand Chapter mentioned in the Obligations existed. I'm all for removing that paragraph, as I said before when someone pointed out that that paragraph might be considered OR. Also it's origins are not unknown, it was in a lodge under the jurisdiction of " General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America". Since in the History of Royal Arch Masonry book the author writes "at the 1816 Triennial, The General Grand Chapter adopted the title “General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States", yet we have proof that a group called the "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America" existed around the time of Duncan's writing, we can easially assume the two groups are completly unrelated, and or, they used the names interchangably. The origin of the Duncan text is NOT unclear we have already provided plenty of sources that proves that, we even provided a source where a completly unrelated lodge was using Duncan the 1866 version as their official ritual. Edit: Also how could there be a "more useful illustration"? you know as well as anyone else that masonic ritual changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and current published ritual is commonly obsfucated. I'd argue that there is no "more useful" text avaliable. Seraphim 21:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that there is significant lack of clarity in the sources about the provenance and applicability means that there has to be significant caveating around its use.

With respect to the deHoyos citation, if you read the entire article you'll note that it's a discussion of how the Prince Hall GLs acquired their rituals. It does identify that some PH GLs obtained their rituals from exposures, although it doesn't go into any depth about what those exposures were. It is implicit in that paper, given the phrasing, that deHoyos does not see Duncans as a legitimate ritual and the usage as a source is not sufficiently reliable for the purpose that it was used for. I sought to correct that by not quoting the sentence fragment out of context.

The point of the question is, given the need for significant caveating around the use of the Duncans source, is there a method of providing an illustration which doesn't require caveating?

ALR 21:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no "lack of clarity" about the origin of Duncan's. The text comes from a lodge in the jurisdiction of the "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America" which we have proven did exist around the time of 1866. There is 0 lack of clarity here. It's origin is perfectly clear. The text only requires the normal disclaimers that any discussion about masonic practices requires, that there is no uniform standard that all lodges follow. Your trying to argue that the origin of Duncan's is unclear, it is not unclear, it's origin is right there in the text. Seraphim 21:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

What I'm trying to do is find an opportunity to illustrate the subject of Obligations in a way which we can both agree on.

One of the issues we have is that we both interpret the available evidence with respect to the source in very different ways. As far as I'm concerned, there is a requirement for significant caveating beyond the generic disclaimer which you're suggesting, and lets face I have access to many of the real obligations both openly available to the public and private.

So I'll rephrase the question. Is there a way to move away from specifically using Duncans, which is causing so much of an issue, and finding another method of illustrating the obligations in a meaningful way?

ALR 22:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for any interpretation, what you are engaging in is OR, you found a source that had a similarly named jurisdiction and inferred that since that group existed that duncan's must be fake. And instead of debating about the reliability of the source on the talk page, you decided to move that into the article itself. Unless you can come up with a verifiable list of "common masonic obligations" then no, there is no better way of illustrating the obligations then by example. Seraphim 22:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Can I draw attention to your own use of easially assume the two groups are completly unrelated, and or, they used the names interchangably above, which I would suggest casts enough doubt on the provenance of the source that no categorical statement can be made. Indeed if you're suggesting that the current series of statements regarding reliability of Duncans is OR, then I'd also say that your assertion that Duncans is reliable and representative also constitutes OR.

Given that we're both using the same evidence to come to two different conclusions then I have to say that the best way to provide an illustration is to find an approach which is not dependent on Duncans. Would that seem to be reasonable to you?

ALR 22:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just pointing out one of many possible explanations for the source you guys found. There is no question that the Duncan's text comes from a jurisdiction with the name as in the text. Fact: The text comes from a lodge in the jurisdiction of "General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America" Fact: The text comes from the time period surrounding 1866. Those are un-arguable, proven facts. That is all that matters. I'm not asserting that Duncan's is reliable or representative, other sources that we linked to are saying that it's reliable, and nobody is saying that it's representative of anything more then what it is, it's the obligations that were used in that jurisdiction at that time. Also stop re-asking the same question, I already said that if a more modern up-to-date version of obligations can be found then that should replace the duncans content. However as I also said, the only thing that would have going for it, is it would be more modern, nothing we can put there will ever beable to accuratly represent "freemasonic obligations" since there is no commonality between ritual. Seraphim 00:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm sure the internal evidence within the source suggests that the text is appropriate to a specific body, however there is also evidence which throws some doubt on that specific body; it doesn't appear in the official history and the deHoyos phrasing suggests that it may be clandestine or irregular. Blueboar raises additional internal inconsistency as well.

I'm glad that you're not particularly wedded to using a single source, as I think we can move on from this point towards something more meaningful to the potential reader.

ALR 08:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

An analogy that may help explain why I don't think any quotation will work

I am going to try to explain why I think quoting Duncan (or any other single ritual) is wrong through an analogy that I hope some of you will understand.... the issue of quoting the Bible in Wikipedia: Say someone wanted to start an article about a passage from the Bible. The editor would probably want to include the text in the article. But then he runs into a problem: Which translation should be used? King James? Revised Standard? New Revised Standard? etc. etc. In some cases the translation chosen can greatly change the meaning of the text.

I don't know if any of you have ever followed the debates on the talk pages at articles relating to biblical passages, but on many of them there is constant debate and revert warring as to which translation to use. They often solve this debate by giving multiple translations.

I know this analogy is not perfect... in the case of the Bible there is at least a common root for all translations, while in Freemasonry there isn't. But the process of deciding WHICH version to use, and how to deal with differences in text is similar. I would be much less ardent about deleting the Duncan passage if several other examples were placed with it. Then, at least, the reader would be able to see some of the differences we are talking about. However, unlike the Bible, it is very difficult to obtain masonic rituals. Duncan's is easy as it is on-line, but others may require actually going to a library and reading hard copy. Still others are not available to the public. Since we can not easily get ahold of multiple examples... the only other choice is to quote no example. ... to take the easy, lazy way out and JUST put Duncan's is wrong. It gives an undue weight on one version of ritual and implies to the reader that it is more "authoritive" than it really is, and borders on violating NPOV. Blueboar 13:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If in the article it clearly explains, like in most freemasonry related articles, that ritual changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and changes over time, and it's pointed out that the text comes from an 1866 ritual book, there is no issue, since by the time the reader gets to the quoted text they have already read all the "disclaimers". Readers are smart enough to realize that it's an simply an example of ritual, and not being presented as "The Masonic Obligations". Also how does NPOV even enter into this issue? I'm missing something there. Seraphim 20:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

First, please do note I said "borders on" ... not "crosses over", I am NOT trying to say that this article is POV. However, it could be argued that it is ... the hypothetical argument runs this way: To present only one version of any text that has multiple different versions is itself POV... It IMPLIES that the version chosen is somehow "better" or "more authoritive" or "more representative" etc. than all the others ... which is a POV issue.

To belabor my analogy... the debate that goes on all the time at the various articles on bible passages usually follows this pattern. Since different religious denominations formally approve different translations of the bible, to pick one as being representative of all is sure to start an argument about POV. Each denomination will start to insist on their version beign the one chosen. The solution is to either present multiple translations, or present none at all. Then you get the scholars chiming in with arguments between greek or hebrew, etc. etc. etc.

Well, it could be argued that choosing only one version of the Masonic ritual is POV on similar grounds... we are elevating one ritual tradition over all the others (even with all the caveats). We could get into a heated POV debate between different groups of Masons, each clammoring that "their" obligations should be the one chosen. OK, I do admit that this is not very likely ... but my point was that there is always a POV issue to consider when choosing between competing texts. At a place like Wikipedia, which treasures NPOV, we should either choose several illustrations or not choose any. Blueboar 22:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If the reader is going to wrongly imply that the version we have quoted is better then any other versions even though they have been informed that that is not the case then that is their problem not a problem with the article. This isn't a situation where there are multiple translations of something, there could be 0 commonality between the duncan version and say the obligations in the lodges that keep getting advertised on tv here in MA. It's a flawed analogy since there is no provable common ground between the obligations. There is no POV issue here. But i'll tell you what, if some mason from a random lodge wants to come here and post the current text of the obligations that his lodge uses, and it's verifiable, i'd much rather have that then the duncan's text. Seraphim 22:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Duncan's again...

WP:NOT#MIRROR, guideline 3, says: "Mere collections of public domain or other source material such as entire books or source code, original historical documents, letters, laws, proclamations, and other source material that are only useful when presented with their original, un-modified wording. Complete copies of primary sources may go into Wikisource, but not on Wikipedia. There's nothing wrong with using public domain resources such as 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica to add content to an article. See also Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources and Wikisource's inclusion policy." Therefore, as Duncan's is a primary source for this article, its inclusion violates policy. Furthermore, the "policy" cited to replace the parenthetical text does not exist. Duncan's will be removed, period, as it is a direct violation of a stated policy. MSJapan 19:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

What a load of bogus crap. Duncan's is several hundred pages and has not been reproduced. THe minimum amount necessary has been quoted, which is just as permissable as quoting other sources, moreso because in the public domain. THis is an abusive use of WP policies. Grasping at straws now? 204.122.16.13 19:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As much as I would love to have yet another reason to delete the quotes ... I'm not sure that MIRROR aplies. The quotes in question are (lengthy) excepts, not complete copies of Duncan's book (which is what I read the guideline as intending to bar). I think this actually falls into a grey zone ... a brief quotation is OK, copying the entire book (or chapter of a book) is not ... this falls in the middle. Blueboar 19:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

See "Don't include" linked above, as it clarifies a little more as to what is acceptable and what is not. MSJapan 19:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, this is not brief at all. According to ISTA's notation, the 1st degree obligation is an entire page in the original book, and I would guess the same in the other degrees as well. MSJapan 19:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

fwiw, without the paste of the bogus obligations there is no need for the preceding, convoluted and involved, section which attempts, without success, to demonstrate that it might actually be legitimate. Any objections to removing it completely since it's not really apposite to the subject?ALR 19:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPS (the "don't include" link you provided above) is indeed more informative - and more applicable. I especially like the example of how the hymn "Christ the lord is risen today" has an article about the hymn in wikipedia, but links to the text at wikisource. The hymn's text is actually shorter than any of the three excerpts we provide here, and yet it was deemed appropriate to list as an example of how the guideline should work. Blueboar 19:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious?? This is the 4th objection you guys have raised, and your starting to grasp at straws. It's 3 block quotes, not the entire text of duncan's, nor is it consecutive pieces of duncan that would amount to copying a substancial chunk, it's 3 block quotes that are pulled from seperate areas of his book. If I had any reverts avaliable right now it would be replaced already. Stop trying to wikilawyer articles into non-existance. Edit: " Complete copies of primary sources may go into Wikisource, but not on Wikipedia." key word being "Complete". Seraphim 20:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If the point is...

If the point of adding Duncan's (or any other ritual) to the article is to give a simple illustration of what a typical obligation looks like... then do we really need all three? Won't quoting one do just as well? With this in mind, I am going to cut the first two degrees. The reasoning behind this is that the Third Degree obligation is the most complete... and contains all the elements of the first two. No, I have not "caved"... I still think that using no ritual is better than using just one... but to me this is logical if we have to have at least one. Blueboar 01:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... well it seems I am behind the curve... when I went to cut, I found that all three are currently deleted. I am, of course, happier with that... but I suspect that someone will come along soon and revert. So... when you do, please keep my comments above in mind and only put the text for the third degree Obligaion in. Thanks. Blueboar 01:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. There is no reason to have all 3 degrees in there, one is sufficient. Seraphim 03:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Another major error in Duncan

Woops... I just noticed another glaring error in Duncan's ritual that shows it is not legit... On p. 21 of his section on the first degree, he includes the following exchange:

• W. M.--Brother Secretary, you will please read the minutes of our last regular communication.
• The Secretary reads as follows, viz.:--
• MASONIC HALL, New YORK, December 8, A. L. 5860. A regular communication of St. John's Lodge, No. 222, of Free and Accepted Masons, was holden at New York, Wednesday, the 10th of November, A. L. 5860.

There was a St. John's Lodge in New York City in 5860 (1860 for non-masons)... but it was (and still is) St. John's Number 1 - the oldest, and one of the most famous lodges in New York (they are the lodge that provided the Bible used by George Washington at his first inauguration as President). If Duncan's had any claim to being authentic it would know that and use the proper number.

Since the lodge still exists, I wonder if WP:BIO comes into play? Now, before you jump all over me and claim that I am inventing yet another wiki-rules violation... I am NOT claiming this... I am just wondering out loud for the sake of discussion... I am not sure if BIO really is supposed to relate to a 142 year old original source making false statements about a chapter in an organization. But it is a question. Thoughts? Blueboar 02:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, now, this is now getting downright pathetic. You can't use OR to put something into the article, and you can't use OR to remove sources. If you have a third-party source that makes these or similar criticisms, then you can add those cited criticisms to the article. Period. That's the only range of motion you have here, beside proposing using a different set of public domain obligations. How about this Webb's you're talking about being more accurate? Surely it's in the public domain. Why don't you propose using the Obligations in Webb's? Or maybe the ones in Morgan? How about if we use those instead. They have many of the same point to which Masons swear. Do you think that would be better? Frater Xyzzy 02:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Calm down man. He was just tossing around an idea. Seraphim 03:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think what we're building is significant doubt around the use of Duncans; internal evidence points to bodies which either didn't exist as far as official sources are concerned, the source is directly compared to mainline sources in a discussion of of ritual genealogy.

It may be that this is a clandestine piece?

ALR 09:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

"internal evidence points to bodies [that] didn't exist as far as official sources are concerned" that statement is completly false and unverifiable. Find a source that states "Duncan's ritual is untrue" and then use that source, otherwise all your doing is engaging in OR. Seraphim 17:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, factually speaking, you're wrong. Check the Grand Lodge of New York's List of Lodges in NYC. The only St. John's is #1. We've already shown earlier through official General Grand Chapter proceedings that Duncan's "General Grand Chapter of the US" doesn't exist, and never has. These bodies appear as part of the ritual, as Duncan does not separate the meeting minutes, and the GGC appears in his Royal Arch portion. Most interestingly, W. Kirk Macnulty's Freemasonry: Symbols, Secrets, Significance ISBN 978-0-500-51302-6 claims that false exposures were published (p. 92). So there is room for doubt, with no OR involved. MSJapan 18:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The internal evidence is twofold, the identification of a Lodge which appears not to have existed under a regular Grand Lodge, and the identification of another RA Jurisdiction which doesn't appear in a historical assessment. So coming to a conclusion either way requires OR, but the weight of evidence is leaning towards an irregular or clandestine body.

Given the level of doubt then we either use another method of illustration, or we articulate all of the issues for the reader to come to a conclusion. Now since the article is supposed to be about Obligations I'm not convinced that giving over more than half of it to a discussion of the lack of reliability of the source for the illustration is entirely useful.

Now I think we're getting somewhere in our discussion above regarding how to illustrate the topic without recourse to extensive discussion of source reliability, but I'd be grateful for your thoughts on my posting from this morning.

ALR 18:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim... if I wanted to actually state in the article that "Duncan's ritual is not a legitimate Masonic Ritual", I agree I should find a source that says that. But it would not be OR to say "Duncan uses the name of a grand jursdiction that did not exist, as well as the name of a lodge that did not exist" since I have reliable sources that can attest to these facts. More importantly, even if my research into the flaws in Duncan's ritual did count as OR, there is no prohibition against discussing such research on the talk page... and it might spark someone's recollection of seeing similar statements in a reliable source, one that could be added to the article. Blueboar 21:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem of course being, that we found official period documents that show that the Lodge did exist. Seraphim 22:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Um... are you talking about the GGC or St. John's Lodge No. 222? I don't feel that the documents you found on the GGC prove anything except that other's made the same error that Duncan did... When you can cite to official documents from the orgainzation in question, documents listing the name changes it went through, I would say that should out trump any third party source. However, I know that would be contested, so I am content to simply state the record and let the reader make up his or her mind. As for St. John's... I have not seen any document or source that says a St. John's Lodge No. 222 ever existed in New York City ... do you have one? Blueboar 02:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, you've provided a single reference to indicate that a body using that name existed. I'm very consciuos that you're probably not particularly aware of the sheer numbers of bodies which styled themselves masonic during the 18th and 19th Centuries, many of which were irregular or clandestine. This might be a gap in the History of Freemasonry article which we need to fill.

We end up with conflicting evidence about the legitimacy of the body, and I'd suggest that the weight of evidence is leaning towards it being irregular or clandestine since there is no corroboration of its existence at all. In that sense I agree with Blueboar, a single mention of the name in a directory is somewhat less useful and reliable than official histories of the regular bodies which you're seeking to associate the name with.

Given the level of doubt regarding the legitimacy of Duncans, which we've now unearthed, then it would seem sensible to move away from that source and find an alternative approach.

ALR 11:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record

FYI - User:204.122.16.13 has been confirmed as a sock of Frater Xyzzy, and has been blocked indefinitely. This probably does not change the arguments for and against deletion of the text, but it does tell us something about motivations. Blueboar 17:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

His main account Xyzzy was unblocked since it turns out the original block was incorrect. Since he was blocked for being a sock of someone which he was not. Also "motivations" aren't really anything, since the article isn't POV pushing. Seraphim 17:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup, the checkuser proved what I'd been saying all along, that I had been a victim of mistaken identity with Jefferson Anderson and had been blocked unfairly. Frater Xyzzy 23:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Funny thing is, my complaint was that you and the IP editor were the same, and had nothing to do with Anderson at all, and I was right, especially since you contrived to mislead everyone in the first place. MSJapan 01:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

So you wanted him banned for evading a ban that was wrongly placed on him? Seraphim 01:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

MSJapan, I don't believe I ever denied being myself. In fact, I think I was pretty clear about noting the unjust block and even encouraged you on your talk page to report me so that I could be cleared of the unjust block. Sorry you didn't believe me that that would be the outcome, but I'm afraid trying to eliminate your opponents in a content dispute is rather low and I must say that I am pleased that it backfired on you. Frater Xyzzy 02:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from playing the victim, it doesn't become you. Let's focus on improving the article to the satisfaction of all parties instead. Dave 15:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward

We've now reached a situation where it's been agreed that nobody is wedded to using Duncans in the article. Now bearing in mind the level of debate around the reliability of that source I think it would pay to try to find an alternative way of providing an illustration of the concept.

I see two possible ways to do that; providing a synopsis of the obligation which demonstrates the common elements, or using an extract from a single contemporary ritual.

• The first is an option because we can provide verifiable references to half a dozen or so rituals which the reader could authenticate themselves. This provides a degree of diversity around the illustration.
• The second is also an option because the obligations are verifiable, the existing reference is publically available and the obligation is written in full. The main issue I have with this option reflects back to one of the issues with Duncans, it is only one amongst several hundred available rituals and can't be considered as representative.

Grateful for any thoughts on this approachALR 11:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If references are avilable, I would argue that the first option is the best one - it'll avoid giving the impression that one particular ritual is 'better' or more representative than the rest. If we go for the second opinion, I fear we'll just close one can of worm (Ducans) and open another one... not an ideal solution. WegianWarrior11:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I would definitely prefer to summarize with citations rather than quote one ritual. If we must quote, I would prefer to use something current and verifiably accurate rather than Duncan's. As it is, we spend half the article discussing why Duncan's is or isn't a good example, instead of discussing obligations in general (which is, after all, the topic of the article). Blueboar 13:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

What are the copyright issues involved here? Dave 15:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Block quoting is not copy-vio since it would be relevant to the article, as long as we make sure that we have the source ref'ed. However what would be prefered is the first option since no copyvio issues will arise, and establishing commonality would make for a stronger article. Seraphim 17:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that we will be hard-pressed to locate a "representative" obligation that publicly available and not under copyright (and that we can all agree upon, Duncan's, et al excluded for the myriad of reasons above). I think that providing a synopsis is perhaps the more agreeable form because we can discuss the various extra elements - that the obligations become more binding and more specific. This also provides a forum to voice the fact that the actual obligations from one jurisdiction to another can (and in many cases will) vary wildly. I can provide a summary of Colorado's if that would be helpful. Bdevoe 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I would agree to substitute the Obligations from Webb's, which would also be in the public domain and various parties have already argued that they would be more representative. But the Webb books I can find online don't include them. Perhaps one of the Masons here has them in hard-copy and could provide them? Jefferson Anderson 22:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect to the copyright issue I think there is a chalenge there, it could be argued that the block quote is fair use but we're talking about a total of between six and eight pages from, for example, Emulation, if we include the rubric as well. It's questionable whether fair use applies.

I think we've had views from most of the interested parties, if I can summarise the options as:

Synopsis: Five in support. Single contemporary source: no-one in support. Late entry for the use of a single historical source: One in support.

With that in mind I'll put some thoughts together on a synopsis and place it on this sub-page.

Given the agreement that Duncans is not the way ahead I'll take it out of the existing article, along with the discussion of the legitimacy. We will need a paragraph to highlight that many rituals exist etc to replace it with.

ALR 09:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that sums it quite nicely. Do we want to provide synopses on all three degrees? I would argue that given the reduction from not block-quoting, providing a synopsis for each of the 3 would be reasonable. I look forward to seeing your contribution, ALR! :) Bdevoe 17:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Unless other jurisdiction do things differently (which is entirely possible) all of the elements contained in the first two degrees are repeated in the third. I think a general synopsis that talks about obligations in general would surfice. Blueboar 18:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If there are commonalities accross the first, second, and third, then each section should be addressed. For example if obligation X commonly shows up in the first degree, that should be mentioned as commonly showing up in the first degree, same with obligation Y in the second, and Z in the third. Seraphim 20:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, I appreciate that you're only basing your judgement on Duncans, but that's not how Obligations are written. there is an obligation for each degree, not a number of obligations which get used collectively. Of course I might have misinterpreted what you've said.

There are points which appear in each obligation though and I'm picking out some very clear themes.

Of course if you wanted to find out for real, together with the initiatory experience which goes with both making the obligation and learning to deliver it to others, then there are feminine craft lodges (and I don't mean Star) in Mass :)

ALR 21:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I was responding to Blueboar's comment that only the first 2 degree obligations were necessary, I wrongly said "obligation X" when I should have said "point X" or "part X". My point was, all 3 degrees should be listed if we are summarizing/finding commonalities. Seraphim 21:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Um... I didn't mean to say that only the first two were necessary... in fact, I was trying to say the oposite... that the first two are NOT necessary (as all of their points are contained in the third and there is no need to repeat them.) Sorry if I was unclear. With a general synopsis this becomes moot anyway, as all "points" will be discussed. Blueboar 02:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

From what I've got so-far they generally build up, each opens and closes in the same way, the first is largely duplicated in the second, the second duplicated in the third etc. There is some consistency in terms of what's in the third, so the first/ second are distinct from the third. That probably reflects the two degree structure in early GL Masonry before the emergence of a third. The second is pretty undistinguished really, which is a pity as it's a lovely little ritual; subtle and understated.

One interesting one is obey the law of ones native land (or similar) which is sometimes in the first and sometimes in the third.

Still thinking, perhaps tomorrow evening.

ALR 21:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Just make sure you can ref the stuff you pick out. That's all that's needed, and we can drop all the duncan's junk. Seraphim 21:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

sorry, still not clear

How is an article of which about 1/2 is a simple quote from a source, an article? That's an obnoxious stub. Also, is it OK to actually quote entire pages from another source on wikipedia? Isn't said source supposed to be linked to in a ref section, not actually quoted en masse? Grye 07:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You've missed the point of the article mate, it's not about being encyclopedic, it's about exposing masonic secrets.......

;)

ALR 09:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Both block quotes, and stubs are perfectly acceptable on wikipedia. I suggest you read the talk page to see where we decided to go with the article. The quote will be removed eventually. Seraphim 19:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't really what he meant either. You do appreciate that the general consensus is that there is really no need for the latter part of the article at all, just a vocal minority that disagree.ALR 20:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, really. You say "we'll remove it, eventually..." which is admitting that the material in question's sole existance is as filler until someone can come up with something.... more fuller [sic]. I'm pretty sure that quoting entire pages of external material is unwiki, & I guess I'm asking: is there anything in print that says so? if so, yank it. & who's this "we" stuff? because the only thing "we" decided was, somehow & I don'r know how, that it shouldn't be deleted. Oh, & I'm reading... & reading... Still reading... all I see is banter about why a very few person(s) think there's something significant about a ritual text that wasn't accurate when it was written 200 years ago, & unpovably used by almost nobody & provably NOT used by most of the 120+ Grand Lodges in the world. That's a handful of people with no idea on the subject telling the world via wikipedia that this is it!!!, despite a good several people who do have absolute knowledge on the matter saying "this is not accurate, take what you've got, make it a little better, & put it in the article it belongs in". quote-unquote. So, question #2) What exactly is the arguement against this? & while you're expounding, what, do tell, is going to be your arguement against someone rewriting this into a section, placing it into the main article, & RFDin this jumble? Grye 04:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, hey, let me reiterate that: A handful of people with no idea on the subject [your "we") are telling the world via wikipedia that "this is it!!!", despite a good several people who do have absolute knowledge on the matter saying "this is not accurate, take what you've got, make it a little better, & put it in the article it belongs in". quote-unquote.

Grye 04:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

the synopsis

OK, I've populated the draft at /obligations synopsis with the material which I've been able to derive. I haven't added references as yet but I've used Emulation, Taylors, Standard, Canadian, Bristol and three unpublished private rituals.

The wording should encompass a decent range of variation and whilst I'd welcome some input from the colonial brethren I'm hoping that I've managed to achieve a reasonably comprehensive coverage. Those that are informed, if you're content to do so and wish to validate this then please add your own references.

You'll note a couple of italicised sections which are direct quotes of the penalty. I played with wording but couldn't find anything which really captured the penalty in any other way.

ALR 20:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me... I would go ahead and place it in the article and we can tweek it later. Blueboar 01:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No... it's useless without Ref's. Seraphim 17:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

There are a range of sources mentioned in my first line, above. I haven't bothered fully referencing them yet. Do you have any issue with the content itself?ALR 18:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't really comment on it without seeing the source material. Seraphim 18:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Well given the complete absence of effort you've put into getting hold of the ritual which has been referenced have we any assurance that you're going to put any effort in this time?ALR 18:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone's a bit angry today. Seraphim 19:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Care to share with us why you're feeling angry?ALR 19:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I think she meant you, ALR, though you make a fair point - I don't think I've ever seen Seraphim back up any statement or objection she has made with any source other than something someone else has found for her. MSJapan 20:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You must have me confused with someone else, or your brain is selectively remembering history. I've found quite a few sources, and presented quite a few sources as counter-arguments. I found many sources for the Jahbulon article, including Tydeman's address. I found the california register source in the current version of this article that showed that the jurisdiction named in Duncan's was named in another official period source. Stop assuming i'm an idiot, simply because i'm not a mason. No, i'm not a Mason, but if these pages were only edited by masons that would violate everything wikipedia stands for. Seraphim 01:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hehheheh... Almost as good as Opus yesterday... Just wondering, how is this article as-is, being rather specific, not AfD material, if the article proposed, being rather all-encompassing & much less specific, is totally unusable, being so uncitable? Specifically, because the new piece is mostly a rewrite of this article & its sources. Is your arguement for the deletion of this article...?I don't think there's much more to say, without getting into the topic of what is & isn't "useless"...;~D Grye 23:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"That's because, a year later, she still only knows what she learns here, or at church or something, about Freemasonry" I don't go to church. And i'm not an idiot. If your idea of "antics" is trying to keep pages from getting wrongfully deleted by the masonic voting block then I guess i'm guilty. However when stuff happens like MSJ blatantly lying in edit comments and then AFD'ing the neutered article, you can be sure i'll pop up. Seraphim 01:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop assuming what other people might be thinking of you. My view is mainly that you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about subject you have little understanding of and your misguided disruption of the contribution of those who do understand the subject is absorbing a ridiculous amount of effort.

tbh I'm unclear as to why your only activity these days is related to two articles, both of which are predicated on material which we've clearly demonstrated is unreliable yet you insist on them remaining?

Anger? No. Boredom with your trivial little game playing, yes.

ALR 08:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Misguided Disruption? Seems to me like i'm not the only one voting keep on the AFDs, and last time I checked, Jahbulon reached a concensus keep. When I started editing that article and standing up to the masonic block of editors on that article it was a wiktionary redirect. If my actions are "absorbing a rediculious amount of effort" then you should start reviewing your own personal reasons for editing wikipedia. Wikipedia is a collection of knowledge, not a place for groups to come and heavialy edit the content on the pages related to their groups to present only the information that they approve of. Seraphim 15:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

what is really sad is that the Jahbulon article should be a Wiktionary redirect under WP:WINAD ... yes, I know, I know, its not about the word's definition, it's about the controversy... my continued problem with that is less than 10% of that article actually discusses this oh so important controversy. 90% of that article talks about the words meaning and usage... which is the definition of ... well, a definition. But that is another issue for another article. You complain about a needing to stand up against a bloc of Masonic Editors... can I ask why you feel that this is something you have to do? Did it ever occur to you that we might actually have a good reason for trying to get these articles Deleted... and that this reason is that the articles are presenting false information, or deliberately misinterpreting correct information in a way that constitutes a POV attack on Freemasonry? Did you ever consider that our motivations are not to "hide" things, but to prevent false and misleading information from being presented in Wikipedia? Or are you so convinced that we are "up to something", that you can not assume good faith and accept that we do know what we are talking about. Blueboar 16:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd also note that almost all of the users who voted keep were later banned as socks of one or two particular users, who were themselves then subjected to an ArbCom case, and are definitely problematic editors. Vote stacking was the only reason the article was kept. MSJapan 17:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

When I borrowed Taylors and Universal last week I forgot to get the ISBNs, so I'm going to be pressed to find them until I'm in town again. the privately published ones are specific to their Lodges and I don't really want to give the Lodge names. I have no special affinity for leaving the reference there if it's felt to be inappropriate. Kilwinning ritual really isn't acceptable from a sourcing perspective as it's not even published, the original is copied as required.ALR 18:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So...

The talk pages here are 15 times longer than the article itself (discluding rip from Duncans & Notes, of course).

Yaknow, I stopped in to my mother's art gallery the other day, & they were having a book club meeting. Funny thing is, most of them hadn't even begun to read the book. Not a problem -they were too busy talking about Anna Nicole Smith dying, anyway...

Just thought I'd share that.

Grye 23:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

& whoever you are, do not remove other's comments. & BTW:

1. you, & nobody else, ever found anything for Jahbulon that wasn't a quote of one single sole lonesome source.
2. No you aren't a freemason. No-one here really cares, except when they can say "uh... that's not true... I know for a fact..."
3. Of anything I've assumed (this year), I never assumed you were, nor think you are, an idiot. & I wouldn't have tried to engage an idiot in private with this banter a year ago, as I did you...:~)
4. Ferget it. I'm late for my appointment to rule the world.

Grye 02:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You created this section as a sarchastic comment about the fact that alot more discussion is taking place then the size of the article. Removal of the section was 100% acceptable under wikipedia policy. Also as far as jahbulon goes, tydeman's address, which I found, was not "quote of one single sole lonesome source". Keep pretending I contribute nothing to wikipedia. Without my involvement these pages would look a whole bunch different. Seraphim 02:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Bored now

Frankly I'm getting very bored with pandering to the vocal, and ill informed, minority. It has been well demonstrated that the extract material is unreliable, and indeed that's been accepted by the vast majority of participants in this discussion. It's very clear that the proposed solution probably isn't going to achieve support, because there has been no engagement in the proposal itself. Anyway, I'm porting the proposed solution across anyway.

ALR 17:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I support the Duncan's text. As for vocality, perhaps someone should measure the amount of rhetoric you, Blueboar and MSJapan put out compared with other editors. Jefferson Anderson 17:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Jefferson, can you explain why do you support Duncan's over the synopis? The way I see it, the synopsis is more accurate, as it reflects what is contained in several verifiably current rituals as opposed to one that has debatable accuracy and verification (which is the point of all my "rhetoric"). Blueboar 18:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily. I am asking that process be followed. The material was not complete. Seraphim asked that it be completed with citation before being added and so have I. Adding it unilaterlally before other editors have signed off on the finished work is disruptive. Jefferson Anderson 18:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

As for the new text itself, it is missing at least one typical clause: to keep the secrets of other Masons up to but not including murder and treason. Jefferson Anderson 18:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be because it wasn't in any of the rituals surveyed. Sorry about that, your own prejudices betray your position.ALR 18:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. I am not anti-Masonic, I am simply interested in completeness. I am fully aware that the clause is still used, despite your careful selection of sources that omit it. Also, I hope all that running back and forth over that ten meters of floor isn't tiring you out too much. Jefferson Anderson 18:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence to substantiate your assertion?ALR 18:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Which one? Jefferson Anderson 18:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Um... Jefferson, I know what I am about to say counts as Original Research... but I have personally witnessed the rituals of three different US jurisdicitons and NONE of them contained the clause: "to keep the secrects of other masons up to but not including murder and treason." I think this is what ALR is asking about. Can you provide evidence that such a clause is contained in a modern, verifiable ritual? Blueboar 18:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Prince Hall in Missouri still uses Duncan's. Despite your elimination of the sources that was documented and backed up with the fact that other Prince Hall juridictions may use Duncan's as well. I'm willing to take a guess you've never been in a Prince Hall Lodge. Jefferson Anderson 18:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You would guess wrong... PHGL New York is one of the three jurisdictions I have visited (the others being my own GLoNY and GLCT.) and they definitely do NOT have such a clause. As to Prince Hall Mo., am I correct that you are thinking about DeHoyos's statement? I do understand what DeHoyos says... but I suspect that what he means is that their ritual originated using Duncans... I say this because I am familiar with the history and developement of masonic ritual in gerneral, and I have yet to find any Grand Lodge that did not change and "update" their rituals from time to time. I see no reason why PHMo. would be any different. I am not saying their obligations do or do not contain your clause, but I would not use DeHoyos as "proof" that they do.

But that is really besides the point. Even if they do have a "keep the secrets except for murder and treason" clause, you are only talking about one jurisdiction among many.... and one GL's obligation is not typical. That is the point of doing this by synopsis instead of by example. What we are trying to do through the synopsis is give the reader an idea of what is commonly included in most Obligations, not what is included in those of only one or even two jurisdictions. Blueboar 19:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The deHoyos article is quite illuminating, but the online extract is incomplete so to exploit it properly we'd need to get hold of the relevant copy of Heredom, I don't have that edition. It's not explicit and given the nature of the paper is a review of where PH rituals are derived from; legitimate and illegitimate routes, then it still doesn't actually assure the reader that Duncans is a legitimate source. The line in question implies that it's not, given that it contrasts with a 'mainline' equivalent.

ALR 20:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to play devil's advocate, if DeHoyos is correct and PHGLMo does use Duncan's (or, more likely, used Duncan's verbatum many years ago... and now use something that has Duncan as a root) then there is a degree of post-facto legitimacy we have to consider... Duncan's may not have been legit when written, but it became sort-of-quasi legit when PHGLMo adopted it. But all of that is irrelevent if we give a synopsis of the Obligation and not an example of one. The key is to go with those clauses that are most common world wide. A "keep the secrets except murder and treason" clause is not common, so it should not be included. 'Nuff said. Blueboar 21:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably into a host of issues with recognition then. I'd think that any legitimisation of ritual would happen on first recognition of regularity. I'm not familiar enough with the history of PH to be able to make a judgement on that.

But yes, I think we're on for demonstrable commonality rather than speculative specificity.

ALR 21:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your references are inadequate. The private ritual does not qualify as a reliable source, and the other 2 ritual are both from English Freemasonry. Not only that, you simply wrote a list of what you feel are common parts to the obligations and then found ref's later. If you want to change to a common obligation section each seperate part needs to have seperate refs from a good sampling of ritual. Your running into the same exact issue that the idea of a synopsis was suppossed to avoid, your using 2 versions of ritual, both from england, and stating that it's common accross most of freemasonry which is OR. The fact that you've been to 3 seperate lodges and seen similarities is not enough to establish commonality. You have American Freemasonry and all the various sub categories (OES Co-Freemasonry ect) English Masonry, Scottish Rite masonry, inorder to establish commonalities you need much more then 2 ref's from london lodges that you decided to add in later. Once you have the section fully ref'ed then we can think about moving it over. But right now your basically adding text that uses only 2 ref's to establish commonality accross masonry, which is not enough. I should go get the Dummies book again and see if that has anything about the obligations in it. Seraphim 21:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So tell me again how deep your understanding is of Freemasonry?

So you'd rather have a demonstrably inaccurate material in the article than something which can be demonstrated to be derived from accurate ritual.

If you read what I've said above, I've referred to four different published rituals, I just didn't have the ISBNs for two of them. I've discounted one source I did use because it doesn't constitute a reliable source, and I've highlighted that whilst two of my sources could be acceptable I'm unwilling to specify which lodges I belong to? Given the on-going witch-hunt into my activities in Wikipedia I'd imagine that's prudent.

Incidentally I happen to know that Emulation is used by HFAF, and it's the root of Canadian ritual, but my copy of Canadian is again a private publication.

So we have a significant problem here. You, despite acknowledging that Duncans is rubbish, you still want to keep it in the article. I have provided a reasonable compromise, in an effort to persist in leaving demonstrably inaccurate material in the article you've so far failed to engage with the provision of a synopsis text. Others have engaged and essentially validated it, yet you persist in unilaterally vetoing it's inclusion?

Personally I'd quite happily not include any illustrative material, because it's extremely difficult to provide anything meaningful. My interpretation of your actions is that you aren't interested in assuring encyclopedic value in the article text, merely using Wikipedia as a web-hosting service to force an inaccurate point of view on the reader.

ALR 22:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

All I'm asking, is that next to each seperate part, you ref which ritual it comes from. Atleast 4 seperate instances from different branches of masonry would be good. If I tried to add a list of things to any of these articles, and simply provided 2 ref's up the top you'd revert it as well. Hell inorder to prove that there is a controvercy around the word jahbulon we had to provide like 8 sources before someone would even adknowledge them. I also never said Duncan's is rubbish, I said it's not as useful as modern ritual would be, and that the paragraph that discusses how duncans is unreliable is rubbish since we have found that some lodges still base their ritual off duncan's. You didn't provide a compromise. We discussed what a summary would consist of, and explained why it would be better then simply ref'ing one copy of ritual. You wrote a summary but ignored why we considered a summary to be better, by only including 2 ref's both of which are from English masonry. A summary needs to show commonality accross masonry, not simply one small area. I know as well as you do, that since lodges are independendent and ritual can vary greatly from lodge to lodge, that stating anything as a generalization about ritual content requires many seperate instances. Unless you want to discuss a certain version of ritual. You know as well as I do that private materials cannot be used as references, therefore stuff like "I happen to know that Emulation is used by HFAF, and it's the root of Canadian ritual, but my copy of Canadian is again a private publication" is by wikipedia standards OR. If you want to make a summary version, i'll totally support it. However if statements are going to be made that establish commonalities accross masonry there must be many verifiable references. What you did, write up a list of common things you remember from the lodges you've visited and then add ref's later, isn't going to cut it.

"My interpretation of your actions is that you aren't interested in assuring encyclopedic value in the article text, merely using Wikipedia as a web-hosting service to force an inaccurate point of view on the reader." you must have me confused with someone else. Show me any edits where I have ever edited in a POV manner. I have always edited to maintain NPOV on these pages, i'm not a POV pusher, i'm an NPOV pusher, sure alot of the times it seems like i'm interested in adding material you don't want added, but that's because you are a POV pusher. (The whole murdered/perished issue was a great example) Seraphim 22:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

we can drop all the duncan's junk??? Ok so I paraphrased by saying you'd called it rubbish. My apologies for so clearly misinterpreting your sentiment by describing it as junk.

Again, we have a demonstrably inaccurate source, and you have so far failed to engage with any of the discussion about that, with an alternative where I have provided four published sources and corroborated that with a number of other sources which are less citable. I wouldn't intend on line by lining that. Of the four sources I identified two and stated the other two which I would include once I have their ISBNs. Do you really persist in insisting that the use of an unreliable source is preferable?

ALR 22:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

We do not have a demonstrably inaccurate source. I have engaged in PLENTY of discussion about that. Duncan's is a famous version of masonic ritual, and we have found other references that shows that some lodges still use it today. The only reason I agreed to removal of it is that 1) It's old and only valuable as a historical example, and 2) A well written and ref'ed synopsis of common parts is much more valuable to the article then a single quoted ritual. My problem isn't the sources your using, it's that your not using a good spread of sources and making generalizations. Seraphim 22:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the privately printed ritual is not reliable... but the other two surely are. Especially Emulation, which is one of the more common rituals performed in the UK, Canada and Australia. It is probably fairly common in other Commonwealth countries as well, but I do not know that for sure. As for needing a US source, I don't think we NEED one, but I do agree that it would be nice to have one ... if we can find it... US Grand Lodges tend to privately publish their rituals (if they publish them at all), which is not really a reliable format. I will be at the Livingston Library (the GLNY Masonic Library) tomorrow evening and will see what I can dig up. And Seraphim... yes, you should get the Dummies book again... and the Idiot's Guide as well. Both will help to clear up some of your general misconceptions and errors. I would also recommend "A Pilgrim's Path" by John Robinson... it is one of the better "outsiders" views of Masonry. Blueboar 22:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I never said the other 2 are not reliable, I stated that they are not enough to make the sweeping generalizations that are being made. Also each individual part should be ref'ed not the entire section reffed at the top. I only mentioned the Dummies book because I don't remember what he said about the obligations, and am interested in how he presented it. Seraphim 22:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Question... so that I don't waste my time at the library tomorrow... I know that many GLs publish their ritual in "code book" form (The "code" is usually rediculously easy to for anyone to figure out... typically they simply leave the vowels out of the words words). Will you accept these as reliable sources for our purposes, or do they need to be full text? If you will allow "code" books, I can probably get you a bunch of US citations by Wednesday.

As for refrencing each statement... If you read ALR's summary, he breaks it into two parts... the first are items that can be found in the obligations of all jurisdictions (or at least the vast majority of them) while the second are items that are very common but not as universal. Do we really need repetitious citations with each item? All of the items in the first part, at least, will have the same citations whether you ask for three, five, or twenty citations. Can we at least combine the citations into one foot note, or do you need a chain of little, bracketed numbers for each item in the summary? Blueboar 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You all missed Seraphim's statement - she wants ritual from every branch of Freemasonry "including OES, Co-Masonry, and Scottish Rite", as she puts it. There's no way that's going to match, because these are all independently administered appendant bodies that were created for vastly different reasons. I don't know about the first two, but a lot of SR doesn't have obligations in the first place. The argument is a moot point, because it will never be satisfied. MSJapan 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The wording of the summary needs to change to reflect that. It should be made clear to the reader that the summary is only addressing one type of masonry, which is fine, it just needs to be pointed out otherwise it's unverifiable. Also as far as blueboar's comment goes, yeah codebooks are fine, since it's not being quoted. If multiple items are common in multiple versions of ritual then only one ref is necessary for the whole "block" which would be the first section, the second section should all be seperately ref'ed. Seraphim 03:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that after a nearly a year of engagement the fact that OES is not Masonry still doesn't seem to have sunk in says quite a lot. Given the amount of effort put into explaining Freemasonry, the appendant bodies and other related bodies which has had no discernible impact then I'm leaning to one of two conclusions, one of them being that this is nothing more than obstruction.ALR 18:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Factual Accuracy tag

It's the closest which sums up the problem. The applicability of the source used is speculative at best and given the amount of circumstantial evidence throwing doubt on it's legitimacy there is a level of intellectual dishonesty about insisting on it's inclusion.ALR 22:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you make a list of what facts are presented in the article that are innacurate? Seraphim 22:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, when you stop working both sides of the argument, maybe we can settle on something. As it stands, you wanted Duncan, then you didn't want Duncan. Now what was representative enough before isn't representative enough now. If the article cannot support a coherent argument, then there is no need for the article, because it will have no value whatsoever, and no further need for discussion. MSJapan 03:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually your totally wrong. I wanted Duncan in as an illustration of what the Obligations look like since it adds value to the article and no other alternative was being presented. I then agreed with the idea that a summary of common obligations would be better then a single example. That's it. "Now what was representative enough before isn't representative enough now", i'm sorry, what have I said that would lead you to make that statement? I believe I pretty clearly stated that his summary draft was useless without refs, and now all i'm asking for is more ref's. I haven't been working both sides of the argument at all. Seraphim 03:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim, I am trying to work with you here, and finding it more and more difficult ... You say you want references... ALR provided several. Now you say you need more references. Can you see how this looks? It is hard to assume good faith when you keep "upping the ante" on us. How would you feel if someone else did the same to you, if some editor kept asking for more and more sources before allowing you to add valid referenced information to an article? As I said above, I will try to find a citation or two from a US source, to demonstrate that these commonalities are not just limited to England. But if you "up the ante" again, my patience is going to run out. Blueboar 14:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement being made is "Whilst no single obligation is representative of Freemasonry as a whole, a number of common themes appear when considering a range of potential texts." 2 refs both from England is not a range. You guys should know better then anyone that simply because 2 lodges in close proximity to eachother share a commonality that that does not mean the vast majority of lodges follow. 5 to 6 sources scattered accross the globe would be plenty to establish commonality. Seraphim 16:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I've provided four, I acknowledged that I don't have ISBNs for two of them and refrained from putting them into the article with that in mind. Bearing in mind that the ISBN isn't essential from a referencing perspective, they could reasonably go in. Can I suggest that you go an read up on ritual genealogy, The selection I've provided are pretty comprehensive in terms of their global coverage, either as adopted ritual or as root for a local derivation.

What's your next objection going to be?

ALR 18:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to make my objection absolutely clear i'll explain it this way. What you are stating is basically this, if I can find a commonality between Emulation Ritual and the Bristol Masonic Ritual then using only those 2 rituals as ref's I can make the statement that it is common accross the globe to all regular freemasonry. Is that the statement you are intending to make? Seraphim 19:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you just clarify for me whether you're just ignoring most of what I say about this sourcing?ALR 20:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

ALR - She isn't going to take our word for it... we have to "prove it" with lots of citations. Seraphim - Just so you know, all four of ALR's cited rituals are used around the globe, Emulation and Bristol ritual especially. They are definitely used in the UK, Canada, and Australia (and probably India and other former British Colonies). There are even a few lodges in the US that perform them. However, I do understand what you are saying... In order to show commonality, you want more than just four english rituals. Am I correct in stating that what you feel is needed are some US sources? To show that there is commonality over here as well? OK, I will attempt get you some US citations tonight. You know, in some ways we already have a US source... Duncan's! No, I don't think we should cite it, as I would prefer to use verifiable, current ritual (and avoid the need to get into the problems with Duncan completely). But... if you compare Duncan's ritual to ALR's commonality list, you will see that all of his points are contained in what Duncan wrote. Just thought I would point that out. Blueboar 19:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"ALR - She isn't going to take our word for it... we have to "prove it" with lots of citations. " that's how wikipedia works, it's not how I work. Seraphim 20:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

fwiw Bristol is similar to Irish, there is some discussion about it's origins with regard to the Antients.

What I don't have is any published Scots rituals, most of them are privately printed.

The issue with lots of citations is that Seraphim doesn't demonstrate any appreciation of the distribution of ritual globally, or the genealogy of ritual. So regardless of what's provided then I foresee further objections once many citations are provided. (call me a cynic if you wish)

ALR 20:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Your 100% wrong there. My only opposition to this content the entire time is the lack of ref's. "Seraphim doesn't demonstrate any appreciation of the distribution of ritual globally, or the genealogy of ritual." if one ritual is used in a large area, or is the basis for many different versions of ritual then ref that. If you can't find a ref, it's OR. Seraphim 20:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

So four references, with a global distribution, aren't adequate?

I'll acknowledge, again, that there are a number of other references which I'm not providing, but which support those which I have. And I now have a fifth ritual which I can reference.

ALR 20:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm off to the library folks... keep arguing till I get back. :>) Blueboar 20:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

....till I get back sod that, long day at work and I'm knackered, so off to get my head down very shortly.ALR 20:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

US references

Well, my trip to the library was not as productive as I had hoped. I was able to obtain current ritual books for 10 seperate jurisdictions (most in "code", a few in full text). Any one of them would be perfect as a further citation to the synopsis... except for the fact that all of them are privately printed by their respective Grand Lodges (several don't even list that publication info). So much for that idea.

However, all is not completely lost... I was able to come up with a re-print of the original Webb Ritual. It is obviously out of date, but it is the ritual that the majority of US GLs base their current rituals on. This website has a good history of the developement of US ritual... who borrowed what from who etc. Citation info on the reprint is: <ref>Webb, Thomas Smith, ''The Freemason's Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry In Two Parts'', Spencer & Webb pub., Albany NY, 1797. Reprinted by The Masonic Book Club, Blomington Illinois, 1996.</ref>.

The Masonic Book Club has also put out a reprint of an old English ritual, <ref>''The Text book of Freemasonry or Craft Masonry'', William Reeves, London, pub (not dated). Reprinted by The Masonic Book Club, Blomington Illinois, 2005</ref>. From the cover page I would say it dates to the 1700s or early 1800s. I'm not sure if it will be useful (yet another english ritual) but I thought I would list it.

I found a reliably printed ritual from the Grand Lodge of Victoria, Australia... but it is dated 1911, and I know we were hoping for current rituals. <ref>''Rituals and Charges, The Ritual of the first, second and third degrees'', Walker May & Co., Melbourne Australia, 1911</ref>

While none of these are quite what I was hoping for (current rituals verifiably used by lodges today), they do verify that ALR's synopsis is valid for the US and Australia. Again, the exact wording may have changed since these rituals were printed, but the concepts they expound are the same.

And finally ... I came up with this ritual book... Unfortunately, it does not say which jurisdiction it is for ... but having read it through, I would say looks legit. <ref>''Blue Lodge Enlight'ment'', Temple Books, Pub. 2003</ref> Blueboar 14:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there is probably a debate to be had about the balance of publication information, I've found that there is only an ISBN in the Complete Workings, the others Taylors, Universal, Standard, Standard Scottish and Stability are all published by Lewis Masonic but don't have ISBNs. I don't think that constitutes self published, since Lewis is an imprint of an established publisher, it just means there is a gap in the reference, although there is enough material to allow someone to validate the content.

Given that we can use a self-published source to make a statement about what an individual says about themselves, can we apply that to what an organisation says about itself and it's workings? That could allow us to identify the US workings and identify an alignment with what we can cite.

All that said I'm now more and more convinced that the weight of evidence indicates that retaining Duncans in the article is indefensible.

As to your last one, although it appears to be being sold by an otherwise reasonable outlet, without an indication of it's applicability then its usage isn't very firm. Whilst it's current if there is no internal evidence we don't know how reliable it is.

ALR 20:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Lewis is definitely a reliable publisher. The rituals they sell are available for public purchase. So the lack of an ISBN should not be an issue. Public accessibility is a problem with the US rituals... I do not know if any of them are available for public purchase (New York's, for example, is not sold publically - you have to order it through a lodge secretary.) Most Grand Lodge Libraries have copies that are made available to bona-fied historians and researchers, even if they are not Masons, but they tend to discourage access by the random visitor. Another argument you could make is that these things show up at flee markets, yard sales and on E-bay all the time ... but that is really pushing the envelope as to what is meant by "publically available".

Given Seraphim's request for several more citations to verify that the items in the synopsis are indeed common... I want to be sure that, once we do post the synopsis, our citations are rock solid ... I don't want some anti-Masonic POV editor to come by later and revert back to Duncan's because we have "violated WP:V by citing to books that only Masons can get". I want to be sure that accessibility is not an issue. So the next thing I want to check out is if any of these rituals are available at the New York Public Library. If so, I will take that as being rock solid accessibility.

Both Webb's ritual and the Australian ritual I list above are reliably published and available. They may be archaic... but I think they should be added to the citation list anyway. However, I do see your point on Blue Lodge Enlight'ment... given that it does not say which jurisdiction it is for, it may well be more of a modern exposé than a legit ritual book. Blueboar 21:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I have that BLE book, and I do not believe that it is current. The copyright is to Temple Publishing in 2003, no author named. There are some marked differences all over the book as compared to my jurisdiction, though I have a sneaking suspicion it's actually a UK monitor. In any case, I wouldn't use it. MSJapan 21:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

MSJ, we don't tend to use the Blue Lodge name over here, it's craft normally, although it might be used in Ireland. Whilst it's not a title I've heard there are so many local rituals and peculiarities that's not out of the question anyway.

A bit of a sidetrack since it's clearly not acceptable for this purpose, but have you compared it with one of the more established English rituals?

Or might it be RGLE related?

ALR 08:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think it is RGLKE, because it's copyright to the publishing house/bookseller here in the States. I suppose common sense would say to ask and find out where it came from. My thought is that the title was added to the rest of the content. MSJapan 16:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

BB, I think the point to note wrt the GL Libraries is that access is not restricted to initiates, rather than not available to every Tom, Dick or Harry who wheels in. I feel that is defensible in terms of verifiability.

Wrt WEBB and the Aussi ritual, I'd be content that they be included based on their assured applicability as regular.

ALR 08:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Both Webb and the Aussi rituals are regular afaik... I double checked BLE on the Livingston Library web catalog - they have it listed as an "exposé" and not a ritual book. First editon actually dates from the 1920s, and they claim to update it with each new edition. With that in mind, I would now say it is not actually legit, but instead based on various US workings (and not an English one). In any case we should drop it as unverifiable. Finally, I still want to swing by the NY public library and see what it has... It may be overkill, but I would rather be sure.

What. The. F*ck.

As a non-mason interested in their mythology, I stumbled into this article and found that it was COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE. Obviously, a bunch of masons wrote this article (which is not a good thing, since masons would have dubious NPOV), since it's full of jargon and mason-words that the average layperson would never see in such a context. The first paragraph, at least, must be re-written so that it's more accessible to those who aren't familiar with mason jargon. However, a complete re-write is in order for the same reasons. Jolb 21:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for your welcome interest in the article. I think you're comments illustrate the need to redirect this particular article towards the main Freemasonry article, which would place it in context and reduce the incomprehensibility of some of the terminology.ALR 21:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources - some are unreliable

I have some concerns over the reliability of one of the sources being used... this is not a content dispute issue... I don't doubt the the statement the source is being used for, just the reliability of the source itself ...

• The Masonry Metareligion website used for the line: Amongst various sources and groups critical of Freemasonry, the obligations are known for their so-called "bloody penalties" is a personal website (see the about us page]) which is not reliable under WP:ATT. A new (more reliable) source must be found to show that some critics call them "bloody penalties".

Thanks Blueboar 15:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd just get rid of the line. A single source isn't enough to support that statement anyway. Seraphim 05:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting duncan again

When we last addressed this issue, we came to the conclusion that there were two options available to us: 1) include an example of an obligation (which is why Duncan's was quoted), or 2) include a synopsis of points that are in a typical obligation. We all agreed that the problem with an example is that no one version will accurately reflect the differences that exist between the many variations used by different jurisdiction. That left us with a synopsis. I know we worked on such a synopsis, and I attempted to find some sources to show that the points we came up with are indeed typical... Unfortunately, my attempt came up with very little that can be considered reliable (I listed the few that I found above). So I have to ask... do we have enough sources to upload the synopsis and if not, what is the likelihood of finding more sources?

If the synopis is a no go... and if it is felt that the only other option is to include an example (and I am not sure this is true) then I would rather quote something that is current and reliable instead of a text that is over 150 years old and doubted as to its authenticity. Since the current UGLE Emulation Ritual is reliably published and verifiable (Emulation Ritual is fully printed and available for purchase by the general public), perhaps we could include a segment of that instead? Thoughts? Blueboar 15:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. Seraphim 15:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still struggling with a knackered monitor, so not spending a lot of time on here, but a couple of thoughts.

You said above that the sources you'd found were in your GLs Library, you also identified that the GL Library is accessable, although for cowans that would require prior arrangement? Both of My GL Libraries are open to the public, London and Edinburgh, and have their own ritual collections. I'm unclear on whether there are constraints on access to that collection, but there doesn't appear to be anything which says that it's restricted.

With all that in mind I think we could say that the rituals are verifiable inasmuch as they're not restriccted to initiates.

Given that you've now identified ten rituals and I'd previously identified seven which all say much the same thing I'd much prefer a synopsis, rather than an extract. If we use a single ritual we still end up with a clumsy middle paragraph saying that it's not representative. Still, I'll support a majority opinion.

ALR 16:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that the synopsis would be best, as it would reflect commonalities between the different jurisdictions, but we need to be sure about the accessibility issue. While the Livingston library is open to the public... I am not sure about the ritual books. The few I listed above are those listed as being in the general stacks. I have a feeling that the others may be on a restricted access list, as they are not in the general stacks or listed in the card catalog. I will double check, but if they are restricted, I don't think we can use them. Perhaps you could see how things stand in the UK... it may be a local thing (with ritual books being available at some GL libraries, and restricted at others).

On a side note... if it turns out that the code books are available to the general public, are we at least agreed that this is an example of an "article about itself" for which Self-published materials are considered reliable? I don't want to go through the hastle of researching if they are going to be opposed for being self-published.

As for the single ritual problem... Yes, if we end up having to use an example instead of a synopsis we will have to include a paragraph explaining that no single ritual is representative of the rest (actually, it might not be a bad idea to include such a paragraph in any case)... but at least we can cut all the extranious language that related purely to Duncan's. If you think about it, more than half of the old article was specifically about Duncan's, and not about obligations in general ... the article could almost have been renamed "Obligations in Duncan's Ritual". Blueboar 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Emulation Ritual

Wading through this discussion I am amazed. Duncan ritual? It seems completely irrelevant to the vast majority of freemasonry, and I wonder why anyone would want to reference it apart from as a minor footnote in history? If you wish to deal in the obligations taken during the three degrees, then a much more representative form is surely to be found in UGLE emulation ritual. It is spread over the face of the earth, and must be among the more representative forms of masonic obligations. Now, if this is true, it suggests that insistence on quoting from Duncans ritual (?? whatever - never heard of it, but I know only English and Scottish constitutions) then it suggests that the originator has less interest in encylopaedic contributions, and more interest in POV. If that is the case, then the whole section should be canned and rewritten without any reference to Duncan. BrianWalker 04:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It has been, actually, now that I've looked at the article. MSJapan 04:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion

Since there is no clear speedy deletion rationale for "POV fork", I've declined the speedy for now. This article has a bit too much history for me to just pull the trigger on it without any discussion. I'd prefer to see this go to AfD or just boldly be made into a redirect to Freemasonry. If there is a compelling reason why this should be speedy deleted, feel free to hit my talkpage with it.--Isotope23 16:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Restoring Duncan's

There was an agreement that Duncan's would not be removed, but replaced with more modern text if any could be found that was not protected by copyright. Since it appears that both that and the idea of listing various features has fallen by the wayside, I propose we restore the text from Duncan's. Jefferson Anderson 18:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I found the synopsis version either written by User:ALR or by a collaboration of ALR, User:Blueboar and User:MSJapan. I've reverted to it rather than restore Duncan's as that seems to be the less contentious of the two choices. Jefferson Anderson 19:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your not returning Duncan... this is a big step towards compromise. From my recollection there was never an agreement that Duncan's would not be removed... especially since the inclusion of Duncan's was the major problem with the article (not the only one, but definitely the major one). There was some discussion of using either ALR's synopis or using a modern exemplar. But I don't know if there was agreement. Seraphim had some objections to ALR's synopis as I recall, and both MSJ and ALR were not kean on using any exemplar text(although I think they agreed that, if one had to be used, we should use Emulation Ritual). More to the point, the un-explained version (no Duncan, no other example, and no synopis... essentially a duplicate of what is at the Freemasonry page) sat with no objection for about a month. That tells me that there is no crying need for any explanation here. Blueboar 20:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I still feel that the Emulation Ritual should be what is used. I just don't have time to be editing wikipedia right now. The problem with the synopsis is that there is not a sufficient sample of ritual used to source the claims that the obligations listed are common to most of masonry. Seraphim 16:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There never will be a sufficient sample - 50 rituals would only cover the US, and Masonry is easily in another hundred countries, each with thier own ritual, never mind places like England who have multiple official workings. This is part of the problem with doing the article this way in the first place. MSJapan 16:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! That is why the synopsis was never suppossed to be added. Your simply agreeing with me. "There never will be a sufficient sample" means that the synopsis can never pass the verifiability requirements. Which is why we decided that emulation ritual should be used. Since it is both widely used and modern. +Edit (Blueboar suggested we use emulation a few sections up, and then a random reader did as well) Seraphim 20:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Except that Emulation ISN'T used in the US, isn't used everywhere, and therefore isn't a representative sample of all version. It's automatically POV.--Vidkun 21:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes and that's why a section giving the normal freemasonry isn't universal speech would be required. The synopsis can be removed as unverifiable, blueboar suggested emulation since it deals with 2 of the major issues with duncan, which were that it was old, and we had to have 1/2 the article explaining all the caveats behind it. Seraphim 21:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Look, masonry is NOT a US-centred organisation, so to be encyclopaedic and NPOV we must ensure that a US-centred approach to a world wide organisation is avoided. Secondly, Duncans' is not relevant to the world wide body of masons, it is not even relevant to the US masons. If you want a ritual which is indicative of masonry and relavant, then Emulation is the one to choose. Surely that must be clear to you? We could argue the merits of avoiding all rituals, but assuming you insist on choosing one, then the one to choose is not Duncan's. BrianWalker 05:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Seraphim... you are slightly misstating my position here. I only suggested Emulation if we MUST have an example. However, I am not sure if we can use any one ritual as an example. We seem to be in a three way catch 22 situation. If we use an example, we have NPOV issues as we give undue weight to the particular ritual used. If we use a synopsis, we have issues with unverifiability. If we don't use either, we simply repeat what is already in the main Freemasonry article. We are at an impass, and will never settle this unless someone can come up with a fourth option. Blueboar 13:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

A synopsis isn't comprehensive, it can't be given that many rituals are unpublished in the context of source reliability. With a reasonable number of sources it can be considered to be representative though.

I wouldn't characterise this as a three way impasse though. If we establish that there is no way to provide a reasonable representation then the article can be redirected.

ALR 13:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly?) that any redirect would be opposed... thus I made it a three way impass. But perhaps it would help to break this into two seperate debates.... First we need to determine if we can provide a reasonable representation or not. Given the comments, I am not sure we can.

Giving a synopis is out, since any meaningful synopis we can give constitutes OR by Masonic insiders or is based on a limited number of verifiable sources - all from England - which is objected to because it is not representative of Freemasonry as a whole. Using an example is out for similar reasons... The rituals vary enough between jurisdictions that any one text is to a large extent incorrect for all of the others. Most exposes are unreliable and unverifiable as accurate masonic ritual. In fact the only verifiable ritual we seem to have is Enmulation, and if we use that we end up with the same England vs. the rest of the world issue that we had with the synopsis... it is not representative of Freemasonry as a whole. In other words... I don't think we have enough verifiable material to provide either a synopis or an exemplar.

Comments? Blueboar 16:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, as what you've said is basically what I've said, I agree with the facts presented, and agree with a redirect. Eveything done to this article (aside from the text that was lifted originally) has run into opposition, most of it valid. If we can't create a representative sample (we'd need at least 25%, which is probably a low estimate and still huge, never mind OR, as no one has synthesized such), and we can't use a synopsis (again due to sample size and variations therein), and if we otherwise don't have RS, we really have no content, and thus no option save a redirect. MSJapan 17:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Jefferson Anderson 18:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I think there's likely to be objection to a redirect just on principal.

From a purely informational perspective I'd agree with the points, and we could as a result just have a duplicate of the paragraph that's in the main article. It doesn't really add anything useful to the corpus of material but from my perspective that's least worst option.

If there is an insistence on something then I think some form of synopsis is the closest that'll get to an agreement though.

ALR 18:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

A synopsis would be great, however as we have already discussed numerous times, due to the immense variation and different versions of masonry world wide, it is impossible to make any statements that are to cover the entirety of masonry. And therefore no synopsis will ever meet the verifiability requirements. That is why the idea of putting an example in the article was brought up, and since we want an example in the article the question becomes what example do we use? Duncan's is obviously not a good example to use because its out of date, and it's sourcing is debatable, however Emulation has neither of those problems. As long as the typical paragraph stating that masonry is different in many places, and that the quoted ritual is only an example, there is no problem. Seraphim 20:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Note on US/UGLE/etc POV: When the conversation turns toward "Regular" Vs. Co- &/or "Liberal" Freemasonry, as it did quite some time ago (like '05), It was decided that here on Wikipedia, Freemasonry, as a general term, shall refer to Reguular Freemasonry as originating w/UGLE, & with that all the others would not be termed "Irregular", but Co- or Liberal or anything (mostly) else they so desire, & not generalized simply "Freemasonry". I see an echo of all that here... yes, Duncans is antient, & UGLE(?), but if "they" are going to add it no matter what, then, well, it is "of" the "Freemassonry" that we all term the origins of Regular Freemasonry... If they don't add Duncans then they are just going to dig up some other's & add that. Then it's... what it is. Just a thought from the peanut-eating gallery. Grye 03:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Restoring Duncan's (continued)

Seraphim... the problem that I have is that your argument against a synopis holds true for using examples as well... "due to the immense variation and different versions of masonry world wide, it is impossible to make any statements that are to cover the entirety of masonry. And therefore no <example> will ever meet the verifiability requirements." In any article, when you give an example you essentially are telling the reader "this is typical". But, as you stated, there is immense variation and different version of Masonry world wide... I would say that no text is going to be verifiably typical. So if we can not use a synopis, and we can not use an example... what are our options? Blueboar 13:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Somebody appears to be misunderstanding "verifiability". There is no rule that says that a source has to be complete. Verifiability simply means that the source can be cited and confirmed by other editors. If the source is only about a subset of Lodges, that doesn't make it "unverifiable". It simply makes it locale specific, which limitation can be specified in the article. Let's not continue this misuse of the term "verifiable" any longer. Jefferson Anderson 15:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

For example, Duncan's is easily verifiable. It is not our job to do original research to determine what Lodges used or continue to use it. It is enough to say "According to Duncan's" and add material written about Duncan's applicability from other verifiable sources. Jefferson Anderson 15:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You'd need to demonstrate applicability, merely existing in hard copy isn't enough. Determining that applicability is an issue, and cuts both ways. You have to assure any applicability and then demonstrate extent using independent, reliable, sources. I rather agree with Blueboar on this point, any examplar would need to be demonstrably applicable and have extensive coverage of the user population. No single ritual has adequate coverage to stand as an exemplar.

ALR 15:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't think there is a requirement of this sort in any policy. I think is is quite adequate to provide a source along with information about its limitations. Other information may become available later which would allow the article to expanded. So far we have two sources, Emulation Ritual which is not used in the U.S., and Duncan's which quite likely was and may still be in some Prince Hall jurisdictions. The article is nowhere near being too long. They should both be included. Jefferson Anderson 17:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

WP is not intended to be a repository of extracts, but a repository of articles about various subjects. Whilst I'm prepared to accept the value of providing some form of explanatory material to support a topic I don't agree that there is any encyclopedic value in giving a short appreciation of a topic then saying; and here's an example, and here's another one, and another, and another etc.

There is even less value when each of those examples has to be so heavily caveated as to it's applicability that the caveats take up a significant chunk of space each time; that is particularly important when one of the examples may have been used and is possibly used in a small number of places, based on an interpretation of one statement in a paper on a different subject.

Notwithstanding that I think it's entirely reasonable, where an issue is contentious, to insist that the policy on verifiability is appliead rigorously and that applicability of the examples should be demonstrable. I'm sure a touch of wikilawyering might find that the specific wording that I'm using isn't in either policy or guideline space, but I'm sure you appreciate the spirit of what I'm saying; it's no good including it just because it's in print and internal indications claim applicability.

ALR 17:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

From WP:V: "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. I don't believe that pointing out that this is all verifiability means is "Wikilawyering". Rather, I think this latter term to be a more accurate description of the long, circuitous arguments which litter this and other Masonic talk pages. Jefferson Anderson 17:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's cut to the chase folks... we seem to be going in circles no matter what words we use to frame the issues. Without using the term "verifiable" or a varient thereof, here are the options and objections...

• Provide a synopis - objected to because the synopsis is not representative of Freemasonry as a whole.
• Provide an example - objected to because no single text is representative of Freemasonry as a whole.
• Provide neither - objected to because that would mean redirecting the article to the equivalent section in the main Freemasonry article.

So... is there a fourth option? If not, how do we resolve this impass? Blueboar 16:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there is an impass. Synopsis violates the verifiability requirements. Examples are found all over wikipedia. An example doesn't represent everything, that's why it's simply an example. You don't post an example of say American Poetry, and claim that it represents all of american poetry. You show it so the uneducated reader has atleast some idea of what the article is talking about. Seraphim 18:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No they do not represent everything... but they are supposed to accurately represent what is being discussed. I would not use the "Gospel of Judas" as an example in an article entitled "Gospels in the Catholic Church"? Blueboar 18:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think the real question is, are the objections to either a synopsis or Duncan's valid objections. Since verifiability simply means that it can be found in print and cited as such, I think neither objection is valid. I propose that we include both, they balance and support each other. Of course, no reason to include more than a single degree from Duncan's as we had decided before, so let's choose the Third again. Jefferson Anderson 19:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Do not add Duncan again... that will move us right back to where we were weeks ago. I strongly object to using Duncan in any way shape or form in this article. I do not consider Duncan to be a reliable source... there is no reliable evidence to show that any Masonic jurisdiction currently uses Duncan's. There is exacly one semi-reliable source to indicate that PERHAPS one prince hall jurisdiction MIGHT have used it at one point. It is not a reliable source. Period. End of discussion as far as I am concerned. I am at least willing to continue to discuss the issue of using Emulation (it is a verifiably accurate and current ritual) or some other current ritual ... but I would need a lot of convincing. I am even more willing to discuss a synopsis, but I don't expect Seraphim will budge on her position on that. But I will become very very stubborn about Duncan's. Blueboar 21:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I won't support duncans anymore either. Synopsis is not even an avaliable option, since there is no way for a synopsis that we create to be verifiable or not be considered original research. Also an example is suppossed to be representitive of the topic we are discussing, I don't believe there is any question that Emulation is both current, accurate, verifiable, and in use. All we have to do is add the standard caveat found on all the pages about masonry that there is no standard. Seraphim 22:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward.

Given the comments above, I would say that we have a clear consenus that we should not use Ducnan. So let's focus on seeing if we can eliminate any of the remaining options... 1) Synopis, 2) Emulation, 3) Some other text as an example (I'm open to ideas), and 4) None of the above - just discuss the obligations in general terms without using an example or a synopis.

Let's focus for the moment on #1... the Synopsis. Seraphim has given us a very convincing argument as to why she feels we can not use a synopsis. So, can anyone rebutt her arguments, or are their any convincing arguments as to why we can or should use the synopis? Blueboar 12:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• None of the above - synopsis is out due to WP:V; Emulation isn't the only current ritual, nor is it the only available ritual, even in England; and some other text is still "one of many" as far as specifics go. As a further comment, the real fundamental problem is that this article was started as a bad-faith exposure, and there's very little we can do to make it into something (besides the base text from the main article) that's not going to present a problem with verifiability or POV. MSJapan 22:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "None of the Above" is that it doesn't improve the article, which is the purpose of wikipedia. "Emulation isn't the only current ritual, nor is it the only available ritual, even in England;" that doesn't matter. By that argument we could say that the majority of the information on the main Freemasonry page should be removed because what we refer to on Wikipedia as "regular" is not the only type of masonry. For example the "General requirements" section must be removed since some masonic groups don't follow those requirements. Why you might ask, is that ok to leave in wikipedia? Because it's prefaced with the fact that the section is talking about "regular" fremasonry. Which means it's being presented as an example of masonic obligations. Seraphim 18:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Since we seem to have moved on to discussing other options, can we say that we have a consensus not to use the synopsis?

Seraphim... The difference between the general requirements section of the main article and this is that the general requirements that are listed can be cited throughout multiple jurisdictions... to all of regular Freemasonry... whereas no obligation can be cited as being in use in more than a single jurisdiction. There is a difference between something that is common to many jurisdictions and something that is not common to any. Blueboar 18:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

However the defination of "regular" freemasonry that we use was simply decided upon. We chose a subset of masonry as a whole. I was simply pointing out that MSJ's argument "Emulation isn't the only current ritual, nor is it the only available ritual, even in England; and some other text is still "one of many" as far as specifics go." is invalid, since by that same argument, we could remove most of the information on the freemasonry page, since it is not the only current version of masonry. Instead we use what we call "regular" masonry, which is actually the UGLE based masonry (there was an interesting discussion about this that grye was in a few days ago), as an example, since it is fairly common , if you know of a more common publically avaliable version of current ritual, we should use that one instead. Basically you created a self defining logical loop. You say that the requirements listed on the main page are the requirements for all of "regular" masonry, however the "regular" qualifier you add, is given to other lodges because they are similar. Basically you are saying that the requirements are the same between similiar lodges, which is circular logic. Seraphim 00:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

No... what I am saying is that the requirments for "regular" lodges is something that can be demonstrated to be common among a very large and definable group of jurisdictions. But we can not demonstrate any degree of commonality nor definition for ritual work. In fact, ritual is not common at all (since each jurisdiction defines its own ritual... and even then often allows for variations at the individual lodge level.) Blueboar 01:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Every thing I have read about Emulation says that it's the most widly used ritual in the world. If you can show me another publically published ritual that is used in more places i'll gladly stand behind that one. Seraphim 05:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Statistics can be misleading... Emulation may well be used in more lodges than any other single ritual (not sure if that is an accurate statement, but I am willing to accept it on faith), but if you compare the number of lodges that use Emulation to the number of lodges that DON'T use it, the conclusion changes dramatically. The number of Emulation using lodges is by far out weighed by the number of NON-Emulation using lodges. You can not hold Emulation up as being typical, when it isn't. Blueboar 13:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Geographically speaking, that's possible, given the extent of the old British Empire, but numbers-wise, given that there are at least 10000 lodges in the US (at a low estimate) and none of them use Emulation, the statement is a bit of hyperbole. MSJapan 16:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, even Geographically I am not sure if Emulation is the most common. If we go back to the historical roots of current rituals, I would say that the Webb ritual had more influence than Emulation. (But if we go historical, we might as well quote the Old Charges, since everything is based on them.) Blueboar 16:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

So which publically avaliable ritual has the most wide spread use? If not Emulation, then what. Seraphim 18:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Difficult to tell, even MSJ is on the wrong track allusing to the Empire, since that carried with it many Irish and Scots Lodges which would have had their own rituals, never mind anything common.

To put things in context, Emulation is used in about 30% of the lodges which I've visited in recent months. Most of the others have been peculiar to the lodge in particular or one of the alternatives such as Taylors.

ALR 19:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The question is impossible to answer... it depends on what you mean by "wide spread use"... are you talking about the number of Masons who use a ritual? the number of lodges? The number of jurisdictions? if the last, then I would say NONE... since each jurisdiction uses its own ritual (and there isn't always uniformity even in the jurisdiction). It also depends on what you mean by "publically available"... are we talking independantly published and purchasable by a non-mason? Or are we talking about self-published by the GL and only available to the non-Mason through Masonic libraries or a private e-bay sale? If the first, I would say it is Emulation (since that is just about the only independantly published and purchasable ritual). If the later, then we are probably talking about one of the US rituals (which one depends on how you defined wide spread ... If I had to guess, I would say either NY or California as they are amoung the largest grand lodges). Blueboar 19:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"If the first, I would say it is Emulation (since that is just about the only independantly published and purchasable ritual)" That is all that needs to be said. Emulation is by your own words "just about" the only current ritual, that is in widespread usage, that can pass WP:V. There's no question that emulation should be used. Seraphim 00:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There are about forty which are published in an academic sense. Any demonstration of widespread usage is difficult, it would probably involve some OR and I can appreciate the objections raised by the US Brethren about it not being used in any of their jurisdictions.

Whilst it can pass verifiability there is an issue of appropriateness and applicability which I'm sympathetic to. As I said above, it's not even used in the majority of the meetings I attend in England, never mind anywhere else.

ALR 12:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

And that is the core problem... My saying that Emulation can be considered "wide spread" was heavily conditioned on the pretext that we were only talking about things that are independantly published and purchasable by the general public. But this is definitely a case where "Self-Published sources in articles about themelves" applies. Thus, there are quite a few rituals that would pass WP:V and are more "wide spread" than Emulation. Which one is the most "wide spread" will depend on what you mean by "wide spread". It is kind of like asking which language is the most "wide spread"... if we talk about number of people it is probably Chinese, if we talk about number of nations it may be Spanish, if you include people who speak it as a second language it would be English. Without a clear definition the question is meaningless, and any answer would be misleading.

Again, the problem is with the entire concept of including an example... examples are supposed to be "typical" and there simply isn't a Masonic ritual that is "typical". Blueboar 13:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think what is basically being said - and something I tend to agree with - is that there should be no reference to any ritual in this topic. It has also been said that the original article was created in bad faith - another statement I tend to agree with. That being the case, and as we know that further attempts to act in bad faith are going to be forthcoming, and as such attempts are going to include the use of rituals in bad faith, then we should decide as a matter of course that we make no reference to any specific ritual - any ritual - in this article. BrianWalker 01:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Which brings us back to the issue of duplication. Without a quotation from ritual or a synopis of it, there is nothing in this article that isn't already stated in the main Freemasonry article. If we don't include a quotation or a synopis, then this page should be redirected to the Obligaions section in the main article. Blueboar 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with MSJapan. Emulation ritual is published and is therefore completely verifiable in the sense of WP:V. I again ask that the misinterpretation of WP:V cease. Jefferson Anderson 17:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Jefferson, I am not sure why you single out MSJ. He does not say Emulation violates WP:V ... he says the Synopis has WP:V issues, and that there's very little we can do to make the article into "something that's not going to present a problem with verifiability or POV"... all of which I agree with.

As for Emulation ... I don't think anyone is arguing that Emulation does not meet WP:V. It clearly does... what we are arguing is its appropriateness.

This is more of a WP:NPOV issue - To me it falls under the the Undue weight clause. One ritual is being proposed as an example of a typical Masonic obligation, when it isn't typical at all. There are hundreds of different rituals use around the world. As ALR points out, only about 30% of one single jurisdiciton uses Emulation. In addition, to this I know of some individual lodges elsewhere that use it. But all told, that would amount to less than 2 or 3% of Masons world wide, which is hardly the "wide spread" usage that Seraphim is talking about.

I know it is frustrating for those of you who feel that an example would help the article, but the simple fact is... no single ritual can be called typical. We would have an undue weight issue no matter which ritual we chose. Blueboar 18:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, misread and garbled my response. I don't think that the synopsis fails WP:V either. I see sources cited. Let's simply separate it out by source, not try to show common features. Source 1 include X, Y, Z. Source 2 includes W, X, Y. Source 3 includes T, U, V, W. Jefferson Anderson 18:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

ARRGGG... so now you want to put the synopsis back in play (silly me... I thought we had consensus that it was out). Blueboar 19:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Trying to find consensus

OK... I know consensus is not the same as a vote... but we have to be able to eliminate options if we are ever to solve this log jam. An option that only one person supports has to be eliminated. So... straw poll... please indicate which you are most in favor of (sign your name with an * and ~~~~):

Use the Synopsis:

Quote Emulation as an example:

• Seraphim 05:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Quote some other ritual as an example (please specify):

None of the above (and probably redirect this article to Freemasonry):

• Blueboar 19:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
• ALR 20:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
• MSJapan 01:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
• BrianWalker 02:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Other ideas (please specify):

• Cite multiple sources, including ones used for the synopsis, Emulation, and even Duncan's. Make clear which obligations are in which sources. Perhaps a table could be used? Jefferson Anderson 19:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Question... when you say Cite, do you mean "provide a citation to" or do you mean "quote from"? also, your terminology is off... the entire thing is an "Obligation" so to say which obligations are in which sources does not make sense ... I think what you are referring to are what Masons call "ties" (the idividual promises contained in an obligation.) Blueboar 19:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I mean a list of ties, not quotes, footnoted with one or more sources which contain them, including Duncan's, which need not be quoted. Like the synopsis but with one or more citations for each tie. This would allow the reader to form a more or less accurate judgment as to pervasiveness and historical change. For example, one could see that ties cited only to Duncan's may have been in use in the U.S. at one time, but have probably been dropped. Things cited to multiple sources are more likely to be common. By doing it this way, we do not introduce original research as to what is "common" but rather let the reader use their intelligence to form their own opinion. Jefferson Anderson 17:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... I have to think about this. It sounds like you basically want the synopis with multiple citations for each tie. I don't think this will fly with Seraphim (not enough citations to show the ties are "common" across multiple jurisdictions and geographical regions). But it is a good way to handle the synopis if we can change her mind. That said, you can forget about including Duncan's - for all the reasons stated multiple times above (I'm not going to bother repeating them again). Duncan is out - period. Blueboar 18:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can forget Duncan's if we can go this route. One of the nice things about this solution is that citations can be added to each tie whenever additional sources are found. I have come to agree with Seraphim on the original presentation of the synopsis, because it does not tie sources to each tie (no pun intended), this does give it much more the character of original research. But to note each tie and what sources it appears in avoids giving the appearance of intentional synthesis, which can indeed be more misleading. Sorry if I take a while to respond, I've been reading one of the weirdest talk page diatribes over at User talk:Fred Bauder (towards the end if you like to watch slow-motion train wrecks). Jefferson Anderson 19:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No thanks... I have both seen and participaged in enough train wrecks to last a while. :>) As I said, I will think about your idea. It certainly isn't something I'm going to reject out of hand. It may help us to see what you envision (we can alwasy revert if it ends up being a bad idea)... Why not use the citations we currently have and demonstrate for us? Blueboar 20:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Two problems. I don't have the sources that ALR used, so can't notate it with citations. Second, due to the unwanted attentions of a certain user (no, not MSJapan), I am going to reincarnate under another user name. I will be away from this and other articles for at least a month, as my motive is to avoid being the object of the other user's obsession, not to double-argue or play other sock puppet games. I hope you have been able to figure out that I am sincere about trying to work together with other editors. Pretty hard to do when other users made assumptions that I was anti-Masonic, etc.

I'd like MSJapan to know that I really appreciate him backing off and giving me space to engage in discussion without further harassment, and that as a good faith parting act, I will be having my user page deleted. If when I do return to this article and Jahbulon in a month or so, you recognize me, I'd appreciate it if you'd not mention it. I don't want to go through all this again if a certain user should identify me.

I trust you, Blueboar, to give my idea serious consideration, and hope the article doesn't get AfD'ed while I am refraining from involving myself with it. I sincerely think it is an article that can stand on its own and that is not about exposing secrets as my motives have been mischaracterized.

So, bye for now... Jefferson Anderson 20:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:CON ""Silence equals consent" is the ultimate measure of consensus" "When there are disagreements, they are resolved through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus." "Normally consensus on conflicts are reached via discussion on talk pages." "Consensus works best when all editors make a good faith effort to work together to accurately and appropriately describe the many views on the subject." '"Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome."' "Formal decision making based on vote counting is not how wikipedia works (see Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy) and simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate. When polling is used, it should be seen as a process of 'testing' for consensus, rather than reaching consensus."

"OK... I know consensus is not the same as a vote... but we have to be able to eliminate options if we are ever to solve this log jam. An option that only one person supports has to be eliminated."

You guys are better at wikilawyering then this. You obviously realize that a statement like "An option that only one person supports has to be eliminated." is not acceptable on wikipedia. Especially in a situation like this, when you KNOW what the outcome of the poll will be before you even set it up. Which is the reason you specified 1 user.

I'm going to find emulation, and add the obligations myself WP:BOLD. I'm looking forward to the upcoming edit war, and eventual rfc, followed by mediation, I would love to see this page and this situation get more outside attention, and sadly that doesn't work unless something comes up. Your position here is completly undefendable, and the creation of this strawpoll only serves to emphasize that. Simply creating a voting block, does not mean you are correct. You tried to AFD the article, it failed. Now we must add more information to the article. The point of wikipedia is to try to build every article towards featured article status. Section 1 C states "(c) "Factually accurate" means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately represent the related body of published knowledge. Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this involves the provision of a "References" section in which sources are set out, complemented by inline citations for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged.". The key phrases in this section are easy to pick out. "means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately represent the related body of published knowledge" since the material must be published to pass WP:V we obviously cannot quote private ritual. The other statement that is KEY to this entire pointless argument is "complemented by inline citations for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" I can prove some lodges use Emulation ritual. I can also prove that not all lodges use it, therefore when using it as an example, I merely need to point out, that it is an Example, and that not all lodges use emulation, then quote one of the many masonic websites that state that emulation usage is wide spread, and possibly the most used public ritual. Which is the only ritual we are allowed to consider. I am in the middle of finals right now, so expect this to randomly pop up on the page in alittle more then 2 weeks, once I get home and have access to a car, so I can go find a copy of Emulation. I won't be editing for the next week or so, I simply don't have enough time, so don't be suprized when I don't reply to this. Consider this advance notice of a WP:BOLD edit. Seraphim 05:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It sounds to me as if what you are really saying is that you feel your opinion is much more correct than the consensus, so you will continue to propose it and revert to your opinion until others get tired of you. Which is definitely not what Wikipedia would deem encyclopaedic. BrianWalker 10:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Saraphim - Please assume good faith here... I think you would agree that we have been going in circles with this article. Something has to give. I created the poll in a good faith attempt to see if we could break the cycle ... obviously that didn't work. So we move on.

I definitely disagree with your contention that we can not cite self-published ritual ... WP:V says clearly that... "Material from self-published sources and sources of questionable reliability may be used in articles about themselves." Thus, there is no WP:V problem with citing any Masonic ritual (so long as it is indeed verifiable that what is being cited is a Masonic ritual). I don't think I have ever said that Emulation is not an acceptable source under WP:V ... My point is that all the other English rituals ALR added are acceptable as well. So are the self-published rituals of all 51 US Grand Lodges... so are the self-published rituals of each and every one of the various Grand Lodges and Grand Orients around the world. Citing to any of them is fine with me (and citing to several is better) ... My problem is with quoting them. There are literally hundreds of variations. To quote any one of these hundreds gives it undue weight... which is a NPOV issue.

Now... that NPOV issue might be solvable with the right cautionary language before the quote or something. I would have to see what you post, and think about it ... So... I will give you the same benefit of doubt that I am giving to Jefferson (by whatever name he ends up calling himself)... go ahead and be Bold... add Emulation... add the nescessary cautionary language... and we will see if your edits are something we can agree on or not. Blueboar 13:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Redirect

There has been no editing or discussion regarding this article since April 26. It is now June 5. This article currently says nothing that isn't already in the main article. Therefore, I will be redirecting this article to the main Freemasonry article on June 8. MSJapan 16:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I object. I've reviewed the history of the article and there have been two AfDs which resulted in no consensus. Just because an article is stable doesn't mean that it is unneeded. Clearly, if there were a consensus to redirect it would have come out in the previous AfDs. GlassFET 16:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. AfDs are for deletion, not redirect. There have been, as you would note if you read the above discussions, multiple suggestions for how this article should be written - Synopsis, which makes it unverified; examples (Emulation) which makes it POV, or redirect. No one's come back and such much of anything about it. Redirect is probably the best call for this one, as the original article was written as a POV slam against Freemasonry, it's been cleaned up, but CANNOT ever meet the verifiability AND NPOV policies at the same time.--Vidkun 16:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest an RfC then, as it appears that there is some bias here. How can you reconcile the statement "the original article was written as a POV slam against Freemasonry" with the Wikipedia policy of WP:AGF? And after the long edit history of the article, how can you justify continuing to use that sort of reasoning? If it truly failed verifiability and NPOV, it would not have survived two AfDs. Clearly the broader community does not agree with your opinion. GlassFET 16:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If you reviewed the AfDs (which I've got good cause to believe you participated in under another name, otherwise you wouldn't even know this article existed), you might have also noticed that most of the voters who voted keep in the second AfD were later confirmed socks, and I would also note that redirects usually aren't considered unless they are specifically brought up as part of the nom. No consensus is not the same as keep, and this article is a duplicate of the relevant section in the main article, which is a clear reason not to keep it as separate article. Stability has nothing to do with it - changes were supposedly going to be made to make it a different article, and they weren't done. Therefore, we've got a duplicate article that has a history of POV forking. I'm also not dumb enough to go through an AfD again so we can have another sockfarm like last time. Let's not play games, Mr. Anderson. MSJapan 16:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, in the future, if you continue to make assumptions and take this sort of tone with me, you will not get any response from me. GlassFET 17:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the April AfD, several comments and indeed the decision itself suggested that a redirect should be considered. The text of the section of the Freemasonry article to which this article was redirected is identical to what was on this page (with the exception of the synopis - which itself was a matter of debate). The information is not gone... it has simply been placed in context in another article. Blueboar 17:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at it. There doesn't appear to have been a consensus to redirect. I think we should simply wait for responses from previously uninvolved parties to the RfC which I've started. GlassFET 17:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Responses to RfC

This section is for responses to the RfC I am about to start. GlassFET 16:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
As the issue with the redirect has proven controversial to one editor. I am proposing a formal merge/redirect of this article in Freemasonry. With ht below mentioned policy issues with the synopisis, and the repeated content, I feel a merge/redirect is an appropriate course of action in an attempt to clean up extraneous articles on freemasonry. While obligations are an important concept, it is a concept that can be covered appropriatley in the main article. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment from a (somewhat) involved party. I have long supported the idea of redirecting this article. The bulk of it is an exact duplication of a section in the main Freemasonry article (see Freemasonry#Obligations), which is where the redirect is suggested to point. The only difference is the addition of a synopsis of what is contained in the various obligations - a synopsis which is unverifiable and contested (please see discussions above for objections to this synopsis, and the examplar text that preceded it). It is true that the article has been up for deletion twice... and that, in both cases, the result was "no consensus" (which defaulted to a keep). It is clear that simply removing the article is not wanted. However, as I see it, there is a big difference between deleting the article and redirecting it. The information is not "gone"... someone looking for information about these obligations will find it at the Freemasonry page - indeed that is probably the article where a user would first look for it (the title here being a bit convoluted). More importantly, the information is properly in context in the main Freemasonry article, while here there are terms and concepts that go unexplained. The idea for a redirect is not new... It was suggested during the last AfD debate as a possible compromise between two extreme positions. Indeed the possibility of a redirect is included in the closing Admin's decision. Blueboar 18:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
• I tend to agree that it is duplicate information. I do not want it to go away, however I think a redirect is more appropriate. It is a subset of the main article and in this situation, there seems to be no reason to break it off when the content is a.) already included in a main article and or b.) what is missing can be incorporated into the main article. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect - Time for a history lesson - this article was created by a user later banned for sockpuppetry who just happened to be involved with the HOGD, and his cause was picked up by a supposed "friend" of his, who was most likely just a sock, and at best a meatpuppet, also from HOGD, as established by an Arbcom case. Now who comes and decides to get on the bandwagon, but another person who likely has involvement with HOGD as per their userpage, and out of all the Masonic articles we got, edits this one as his first ever Masonry-related article. Why would this be on a new user's watchlist, since it hasn't been edited since a week after GlassFET started getting really active (and in a spot where he wasn't editing)? And you wonder why I'm suspicious. One is known by the company one keeps. Now, if you look at the initial versions of this article, it was nothing but a c/p of the original section and the full text of Duncan's "exposure" (which is fake). In short, the point of this article was to "expose" some supposed secret; there was no interest ever shown in discussing obligation in general, and when we tried that, we ran into problems of over-generalization and synthesis. The article as it stands is basically what's already available in the main article, and it does not need to be duplicated, especially when the duplication was a POV fork. MSJapan 02:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - this argument has nothing to do with the article or its merits. It's a complete red herring. GlassFET 14:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• If it cannot be made to stand on it's own (see discussion below), then it should redirect to main article. And looking at the discussion both above and below, I do not think we can make it stand on it's own without violating policy. WegianWarrior 13:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Synopsis

Seraphim had concerns about the synopsis on WP:V grounds... and I disagreed, feeling that we had enough sources to back it's inclusion. MSJapan's comment (in the above RfC) now raises a new issue - WP:SYNT. I think this concern is indeed valid. As one of the editors who helped create the synopsis, I have to admit that it is a synthesis, and thus violates WP:NOR. So... Regardless of whether we redirect or not, I think we have to remove the synopsis. Any objections or counter arguments? 12:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

After reading WP:SYN, it looks like you are correct. I guess it would hinge on weither or not synopsis was amounts to, and I qoute from the policy, new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. If indeed it is (and not having read the sources in person, I do not know), then it will have to go - leaving us with precious little than whats in the main article. WegianWarrior 13:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a "new synopsis" (I know of know source that outlines the ties in this way) and it does "advance a position" (that those listed are typical). So... I will delete it for now... People can revert if they object. Blueboar 14:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Since the article is now a direct copy of the section in Freemasonry (as the synthesis is original research and cannot stay), I have been bold and redirected it to that article. Lexicon (talk) 14:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I object to these unilateral actions without waiting a reasonable amount of time for responses to the RfC. I also note that WP:SYN only refers to synopses intended to advance a position. The synopsis in this case does no such thing, but simply summarizes available information without attempting to advance some specific position or theory. GlassFET 14:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

it is a list of things that might or might not be included depending on the type of masonry involved. The opening paragraph is a much better written section, written in prose as opposed to the clumsy list form, of things that only happen in certain types. I have concerns of the synopsis as well. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it could be argued that the synopsis is indeed advancing a position - namely that there is common themes in the obligation of different Grand Lodges (and - by extention - Grand Orients) - which is somewhat of a wide ranging statement to make based on just three rituals in my opinion. WegianWarrior 16:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Given that I initially created the synopsis in an effort to reach some compromise I'll just say that I have no interest in it staying. All in all I used about seven referenceable sources and perhaps half a dozen private, hence unreferencable, sources. They are a pretty fair representation of rituals derived from the two UK GLs and Ireland, but didn't include things like Swedish, Northern European or Orient rituals. That said from what I remember of Shroeder there are close similarities.

Without it the article is a duplicate of the section in the main article so can reasonably be redirected, that contextualises the topic and limits the need for elaboration.

ALR 20:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)