Talk:Occupied Enemy Territory Administration

Undiscussed change of topic

It seems like a few months ago, there was a major modification of this article, without any discussion and moreover without sufficient sources. I revert user:Protozoon's edits back, until it is properly discussed per WP:BRD.GreyShark (dibra) 14:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The Flag of the State of Palestine does not belong on this article

I have twice removed the flag of the State of Palestine from the list of nations that emerged from the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration. User Zero0000 has twice reverted them without showing cause, and falsely claiming I cannot edit this article.

Palestine is an only semi-recognized non-entity that doesn't claim what its borders are. It is not a country, and it is thus inappropriate to have the flag of such a non-entity in a factual article, under the guise that this is a country that has arisen from the OETA (the POV of user Zero0000, or any other Wikipedia user notwithstanding). That would be factually incorrect, and misleading to anybody who wishes to learn about the OETA.

You aren't allowed to edit here either, per WP:ARBPIA3. Go away. Zero^talk 01:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Cite the source directly. Should you choose to make claims, the onus is on you to cite the relevant article or articles which would expressly and completely prohibit me from contributing and editing this article and its accompanying Talk Section.

Furthermore, it is disrespectful to tell me to go away, particularly when you have not done the base of the base of your due diligence and cited the relevant article or articles that expressly and completely prohibit me from contributing and editing this article and its accompanying Talk Section.

AJB43 (talk) 06:52, 31 January 2016 (UTC)AJB43

Zero0000, your political views are not a relevant reason to continue to revert my edits. Here, as it pertains to an article on Wikipedia, they are not supposed to get in the way of intellectual cleanliness. I highly recommend you get your act together on this issue.

AJB43 (talk) 06:24, 1 February 2016 (UTC)AJB43

About your Third Opinion request: Your request for a 3O has been removed/rejected. All requests for 3O's, like all other forms of moderated content dispute resolution here require thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. Once that has happened, if you are still at a stalemate, you may see dispute resolution. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:18, 1 February 2016 (UTC) (3O volunteer)

Map

I think the map is misleading, at least insofar as it relates to the northern and southern boundaries of OETA South (Palestine). The 1918 modus vivendi followed Sykes-Picot, the northern border wasn’t moved until 1920 and the southern border wasn’t defined until 1922. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Now fixed with contemporary map. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Mystery Kazas of OETA North (West)

Alsberg's rendering of the OETA announcement includes two names of kazas that I am struggling to identify:

• Yeniji Kali
• Im Beidan

Efraim Karsh renders them as Yeniji Keli and Umm Biban

Gideon Biger renders them as Yaniji-Kli and Umn-Biban

Any help solving this mystery would be greatly appreciated.

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Biger says "sanjaks of Beirut, Lebanon, Latakiya and the city of Beirut, the kazas (subdistricts) of Hasbaya, Rashiya, Jasr-El-Sojour, the Bay of Antaqia, Yaniji-Kli, Umn-Biban and Alexandretta". This 1919 report of Allenby says "town of Beirut, Sandjaks of Beirut, the Lebanon, Tripoli, Ladikiya and the Cazas of Jisr-Esh-Shoghur, Antioch, Haran, Bailan and Alexandretta." That's quite some disagreement in names, but kazas could have had more than one name. There was a Bailan Pass somewhere near Antioch. There was a Haran on the Aras River but that seems too far north. Zero^talk 13:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I guess Haran might be located near the current Turkish district of Harran, see List of districts in Turkey. Zero^talk 14:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

This map has Beilan. No sign of the others. Zero^talk 15:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. That seems consistent with Belen Pass.

The other mystery name appears to be Turkish for “new-castle” (wikt:yeni and wikt:قلعة)

Onceinawhile (talk) 20:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Cuinet map

Maybe Harem on that same map (Kaza inland from the Antioch Kaza) is "Haran" in Allenby's report. Since (I understand) Kazas took their names from their administrative capitals, the Kaza name changes if the capital changes, so looking at village/city names on maps might solve it. Also, overlaying the OETN map on Cuinet's maps of Kazas might indicate which Kazas are involved. Are they all Kazas of Allepo/Haleb Vilayet or did OETN extend further north than that? Zero^talk 01:53, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@Zero0000: thank you – again – for solving the mystery. I looked at Cuinet’s map as suggested - it has a “Yeni Keui” just above Harem.

Almost certainly it refers to Harem, Syria. As for Yeni Keui, a comparison of google maps and Cuinet suggests it is Kumlu. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:22, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Please look at these maps mentioned once before, in paticular the Latikiya map (1915). Note that the Vilayet boundaries differ from Cuinet's. Just above the Aleppo Vilayet boundary near the coast there is a town "el Urdu" and close by in the NE direction is "Yenidje Keui". Since this region near the coast was certainly in OETN, I propose that a Kaza here is the correct identification. (The spelling Yenidje gets some google hits that I didn't explore yet.) Jisr es Shighur is shown, apparently matching Cuinet's Djisr-Chor. As for Harem, I think a better choice is the Harem Kaza that Cuinet shows directly west from Alep (Harim on the 1915 map). I'll look for the map directly above this one. Zero^talk 02:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

The map in the same series extending further north is here. On second thoughts, I withdraw my identification of "Yenidje Keui". If you are less confused than me, perhaps you can summarise your matching of the two lists. Zero^talk 02:54, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Two more sources:

• Gil-Har’s 2000 paper ([1]) says “It is quite clear that the areas of military administration were delineated in accordance with the sketch map that had been designed by Sir Mark Sykes in May 1917.” He sources this to: Memorandum by Mark Sykes, 17 May 1917. Sykes' Papers, St Antony's College, Oxford,32A; G. Lloyd to General G.F. Clayton, Notes on Draft Report of Sykes-Picot Mission.Observation on Arabian Policy written by Sir Mark Sykes, undated. FO 882/16; Mark Sykes to Foreign Office, 24 May 1917, FO 371/3054.
• This Turkish source lists the Kazas of the Aleppo vilayet, and also shows their nahiyes. It shows Beylan (with no nahiyes) and Harim (with Harim, Barisa and Reyahaniye as nahiyes) as kazas.

To my mind this confirms that (1) Belen (per Allenby’s 1919 “Bailan”) was a kaza, and (2) Harem, Syria is the relevant locality for Allenby’s 1919 “Haran”. Yenikuei is on the map you linked to a little east of the “flooded in spring” area.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Place of birth in peoples' infoboxes

How, should the entity be written as in the infobox of a person born in, say, Faitroun (modern Lebanon) in September 1919? This is the case of Camille Cordahi. Is the way the location is displayed currently in the article (as Faitroun, Mount Lebanon, OETA West) correct? @Zero0000 and Onceinawhile: pinging recently-involved editors in the talk page. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I think your proposal is a good formulation. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:32, 26 February 2021 (UTC)