Talk:Ohrid

Untitled 2021 comment

Lychnidos in Albanian means lake city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.215.86 (talk) 15:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Capital

"Ohrid was capital of the Bulgarian empire. Above the city still remain the ruins of the stronghold of Tsar Samuil. As an episcopal city, Ohrid was an important cultural center within the Bulgarian empire during the Middle Ages, which still can be seen in the numerous churches and monastery buildings"

About churches of Ohrid

First we are talking about Middle Ages which ends at 15 century Now if somebody reads this article, and have never been there he will assume:

1) Ohrid was part of Bulgarian empire after 1018

2) It was a center of a Bulgarian church after 1018

3) The Bulgarians build many churches after 1018

However the fact of the matter is:

1) Ohrid was not part of Bulgarian empire after 1018 with a very brief exception in early 13th century – couple of years.

2) There was no Bulgarian church in Ohrid after 1018

3) There isn’t a single church (at least major) built by Bulgarians

4) There are no churches dating 8-10th century

The oldest church (not counting early-Christian church) is Church of St. Sophia built around 1030. The vast majority of churches are built in the 13 and 14th centuries. Therefore unless proved wrong I will insist on the previous version. I am sorry but Ohrid is not just part of Bulgarian history. Also why was the name origin removed? What’s so controversial about that? --Cigor 18:37, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Ohrid is more Slavic/Byzantine/Roman. They say there are 365 churches in Ohrid, so im not sure about the Bulgarians building any. And was Czar Samuel Byzantine or Bulgarian? I think that hes Byzantine but i am not sure.70.27.144.22 (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

There is an article about him - I suggest you read it.--Laveol ^T 15:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The movie, Before the Rain, was filmed in Ohrid. I dont know if this is worth mentioning...

Part of it was filmed around the lake, but it was mainly shot on location across various points throughout Macedonia. Though no specific region is mentioned in the film (Skopje is seen from the air but is soon faded out as the main character heads by bus for the village), the idea of the film being presented in the way was to send a Macedonian postcard to the world. Evlekis (Евлекис) 08:16, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Who the hell wrote this nonsense above? Ohrid is one of the religious capitals of Bulgaria. - Marko

What is Ohrid really known for ?

The leading paragraph of this page says "The town is notable for being the location where the Ohrid Agreement was signed."

I am sure this is exactly what Ohrid is *infamous* for. The agreeement is a shame for all Macedonians, and we all know how it was signed. Does this forced agreement deserve to be mentioned in the leading paragraph about Ohrid ? Isn't there anything else more important than that ? Who wrote this page anyway ?

Goce Smilevski, Bitola, Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.180.95 (talk) 07:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Goce, feel free to move the information to some other part of the page - just don't remove it completely. Just so you know, most editors will undo any controversial edit that comes from an IP adress. You may want to consider getting an account. BalkanFever 07:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Ohrid considered the Macedonian Jerusalem? The town of the many churches and so on. This should be worth mentioning in the leading section. --Laveol ^T 11:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I added that, but the Ohrid agreement part looks like crap now. I don't know where else it could go. BalkanFever 11:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd remove it. It does not seem that important or at least not in a way that could be well represented in this section. --Laveol ^T 12:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OK BalkanFever 03:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

References

I just wanted to put a specialized source(s) and not a city guide source.Ancient history is properly referenced with specific type of sources not city guides.Megistias (talk) 18:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

A link ref is on the President of the Republic of MAcedonia and that means that the ref is useless.This is on history.Megistias (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The ref are wrong and should be removeddiff.This is what applies.

• Oseriates, "lakes"; akin to Old Church Slavonic ozero (Serb-Croat jezero), Latvian ezers, OPruss assaran, Gk Akéroun "river in the underworld".So nothing to do with that desar....
• Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,Page 99:"... 99 victory would be theirs if they received Cadmus as king. After this had come about as foretold, Cadmus and Harmonia ruled over them and founded the towns of Bouthoe (Budva) and Lychnidus (Ohrid). ..."

Megistias (talk) 19:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The article is full of city guide links presented as sources.Someone remove them.Megistias (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

And they are in Slavic as well.Tourist guides...Megistias (talk) 08:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This fact has already been discussed.Tourist guides are inappropriate.Proper sources will be added.Megistias (talk) 11:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You added a huge number of Travel guides.diff and inappropriate sources.Megistias (talk) 11:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Geography of Ohrid?

Seems like the article is concentrated on the History of Ohrid. There's no word of geography, climate, etc. So, as an information, Ohrid has a pleasant Mediteranean-like climate, with average Jan temp. of 3 degrees Celsious, and avge July temp. of 24 degrees Celsious. Rainfall is about 700 mm a m2 per year, and on its coast can be seen a lot of PALMTREES, and other mediteranean flora. Cheers.24.86.127.209 (talk) 05:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

For whoever wants to read about Ohrid's climate, here's a link to it: http://www.world-climates.com/city-climate-ohrid-macedonia-europe/ Would have edited this data myself in the article if I wasn't so busy with having no time to study now how to do it; So, for the lovers of Ohrid's geographic features (climate), please use the link above; Regards;50.98.147.64 (talk) 02:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Confusion between English and Macedonian wikipedias

I'm confused because the english wiki has this article Saint Panteleimon, Ohrid that looks to be referring to the same church as the one on the macedonian wiki labeled as: mk:Светите Климент и Пантелејмон. Why is there a difference in the naming? Which is correct? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 23:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox of UNESCO World Heritage Sites

There has been some confusion regarding the name used in the above infobox, as long as some controversial, to say the least, editing patterns (mainly by anon users but unfortunately not only) for quite some time now. I think that we should treat it as any other article that falls clearly within the scope of the United Nations, especially since, by its own nature, an infobox require somewhat a sense of formality, of properness with a generous twist of conciseness. Therefore I think that the only appropriate name for the | State Party = variable is the name the organisation and ultimately, the state itself participates with i.e. in this case, "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". We might also opt-in for a capital "F", if we chose to strictly follow the naming convention of the official website here (or as part of a list of member countries here). But I am not so sure about that one, so I will leave the "the former" bit un-capitalized, for the time being. Just a thought. --157.228.x.x (talk) 05:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Demographics section

Other cities have one such as Bitola, would it be wrong to add one here?Reaper7 (talk) 18:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Zlate Perovski source for "Macedonian Jerusalem

First of all, Zlate Petrovski is not a reliable source. He doesn't even have university degree. He have completed his higher education as machine engineer and currently (and the latest 23 years) works in "General Motors". So I'm moving this claim as "eventually". Here's a biographical movie in Macedonian about Zlate Petrovski: Portret na makedonski iselenik vo SAD - Zlate Petrovski

On the other hand the source for the "Bulgarian Jerusalem" are Prof. Dr. Biljana Vankovska (Faculty of Philosophy, University of Skopje) and Prof. Håkan Wiberg (PhD, Danish Institute for International Studies). Also there was a source from Trandafil Krastanov (PHD, Senior Scientist, Head of "Manuscripts and Incunabula" department at the "Church Historical and Archive Institute" at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences. --StanProg (talk) 09:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources

Please, first provide a reliable source, then make changes. Electrician's book with higher education in electronics is not a reliable source. I've provided sources about "Bulgarian Jerusalem" by Macedonian, Bulgarian and Dutch scientists and you have only provided an electrician's claims. According to the wikipedia rules Wikipedia:Reliable sources the "Macedonian Jerusalem" should not even be included, as according to the provided sources it's a fringe theory.

If tomorrow Ohrid is in Albania, should the "Albanian Jerusalem" be referred first?

I'm reverting the change, and if you do not provide reliable source about "Macedonian Jerusalem" it will be removed as a fringe theory. --StanProg (talk) 10:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC) --StanProg (talk) 10:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Jerusalem

Ok, since there's been a pretty hot edit-war going on for some time, I'd suggest the participants start using the talkpage prior to any further reverts. I can give you my 5 cents - I've heard Ohrid being called the Balkan Jerusalem. It'd be 1. More reliable since I can provide you with a third-party source for it. 2. It'd be NPOV since Ohrid is in the Balkans and the name itself does not represent a claim to the city. 3. It'd stop the edit-war. That's all for now.--Laveol ^T 13:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I have heard that Ohrid is called Balkan or Macedonian Jerusalem... so we could write like that ... or just leave like this (which i don't like it) ... and to all Bulgarians I am sorry about the today's accident that happen in the Ohrid lake and the lost of your people :S :S :S ... When you see all in all ... we are all people and we have to have respect each other ... no matter if we are Macedonians, Bulgarians, Serbs or etc. 1111tomica (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)1111tomica1111tomica (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"I've heard" doesn't count. Please, provide reliable sources. Electrical engineer's opinion about a historical name/term is not reliable at all. --StanProg (talk) 20:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

TERRIBLE NEWS!

OHRID, Macedonia (Reuters) - Most of the 15 people who drowned on Saturday when a boat carrying more than 70 tourists sank on a Macedonia's Lake Ohrid were Bulgarians, Macedonia's interior minister said. Published: September 5, 2009 Jingby (talk) 18:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I know :S ... for that I wrote the comment in the previous section... That's horrible people... I am deep sorry and the owner of the yacht is a big JERK!!! 1111tomica (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)1111tomica1111tomica (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Justiniana prima

Justiniana prima was Scupi not Ohrid but there was some Eclessiastical rights that changed hands and some other issue between Justiniana prima(Scupi) and Ohrid.If someone finds it he can put the thing into context.Megistias (talk) 17:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I've checked in several sources and according to them "Justiniana prima" is in South Serbia (7 km from Lebane). --StanProg (talk) 20:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I am leaving this to you.Megistias (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

someone should correct the ecclesiastical history it was written with the equation ohrid=justiniana prima in mind87.202.30.29 (talk) 07:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

POV pushing and fringe theories

I'd like to ask the user User:1111tomica to read the the Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources section and especially this "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications." I'm removing the fringe theory again. --StanProg (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

IPA

I have amended the description to place /d/ and not /t/ and the end of the line. I know it is colloquial for all people in Macedonia to go lazy on end of word voiced consonants but it is not a strandard practice, I don't honestly believe it is in Bulgaria either. In Macedonia or former Serbo-Croat zones, it is particularly important to speak as something is written because failure to do so violates the phonetical system which the respective nations all cherish. In addition, there is no way you can present national news and say "Ohrit i Makedonski Brot, Belgrat i Novi Sat, Zagrep i Potgorica". It was cause an outrage. Evlekis (Евлекис) 08:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Typos

I have noticed the name of the Ohrid outflow river shown as Black Drin, whereas for Macedonian people it is written and pronounced as Black (Crn) DRIM. The name of the mountain between Lake Ohrid and Lake Prespa is GALIČICA, not Galcica. Those are presumably typos, but nevertheless worth correcting.79.126.213.44 (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Black Drin is the name in English, but I don't see nor the river nor "Galcica" in this article. --StanProg (talk) 21:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

How is Ohrid pronounced in English?

Is it pronounced /ɔkɹid/ or /əʉɹid/? 121.219.67.50 (talk) 12:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC) (sorry, these transcriptions are in Australian English)

Relevance

What do you mean by 'it's not relevant'? After all, there are almost 4,000 people in the city speaking Albanian. Surely it should be included? Ujkrieger (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It is included in the Name section. Albanian is not an official language in the town or municipality of Ohrid; "Ohër" is not found on signs within the city and was never the official name of the city historically. Ohrid is the predominant name of the town and the alternative names are best dealt with in the separate Name section, as per WP:NCGN. --Local hero ^talk 18:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your neutral reply. I understand why it has not been included in the lead. Ujkrieger (talk) 17:35, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. --Local hero ^talk 21:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Request to remove image with irredentist elements

The following image:

World War 1, Postcard, Bulgarian Army in Ochrid Macedonia 1915.

has irredentist elements such as depicting the statement "Ohrid - the heart of Bulgaria". I recommend removing this image since these ideals are still relevant in modern day politics and are better to avoid. Also, Wikipedia is not an image gallery, which is applicable in this situation as the image does not contribute anything substantial to the article Beat of the tapan (talk) 02:07, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree, I think there are better historical images available in the Commons if needed. I'm not sure what this postcard adds to the article. --Local hero ^talk 22:26, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the image. Thanks for your input. Beat of the tapan (talk) 21:27, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Name of the City

In 2019 the Albanian language became the second official language of North Macedonia (at a state level), therefore the name of the city should also be written in Albanian ('Ohër') and it shouldn't only be covered in the name section. N.Hoxha (talk) 00:21, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

The new laws do not apply throughout the country unless they satisfy certain criteria. For example, the new laws extend Albanian language services in a full official capacity to places where Albs are 20% as opposed to the previous 25%. Albs in Ohrid don't even come close to either number. Regardless Alb name is covered in the name section of the article.Resnjari (talk) 06:01, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Lowercase sigmabot III

Thoughts on adding the bot lowercase sigmabot III? It is a bot that archives sections. Will it be useful and do you all agree on adding it? Andrew012p (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Bibliography

@SilentResident: used two sources in their revert. These are: 1)N.G.L. Hammond, Philip of Macedon, 1994, John Hopkins University Press (without a page) 2)The Cambridge Ancient History: pt. 3. The expansion of the Greek world, eighth to sixth centuries B.C, p.284, to which I have full access. Neither mentions Lychnidus/Ohrid in terms of its inhabitants in relation to Dexari and CAH (1984) doesn't mention it all in p.284. CAH (1984) is outdated because 35 years of archaeological research have passed since then but for the sake of scrutiny I checked if it mentions Lychnidus/Ohrid in its 533 pages. Lychnidus/Ohrid is mentioned in p.265: The Chaones, a very powerful group of tribes in northern Epirus, extended at that time into the southern part of the lakeland; for one of their tribes, the Dexaroi, was adjacent to the Encheleae (..) On the other hand the Encheleae were an Ulyrian group of tribes, of which the centre was north of Lake Ochrid on the upper Drin; their ruling house claimed descent from Cadmus and Harmonia (Hdt. v. 61.2; ix. 43.1; Strabo 326), and the foundation of Lychnidus (near Ochrid town) was attributed to Cadmus. Of course, this is nowhere near Ohrid (northern part of the lake). To recap, SR used bibliography to put forward claims that don't appear in bibliography and made WP:ASPERSIONs against another editor (@Βατο:). Editors should take responsibility for their edits and not launch accusations on others when corrected.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Population source

Idk, maybe that source tagged by @Jingiby: should be removed. Does someone have access to it? Maybe @Maleschreiber: or @Βατο: have? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:23, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that the article becomes confusing because many different figures are listed but it's not clear to readers what they refer to. The kaza of Ohrid should be defined in the article and information should be moved to the section about demographics.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that creating that sub-section would be of help. I do not think the source should be removed, just a clarification is needed about what is the supposed difference between Albanians and Albanian Christians. The sentence is question says that "the Kaza of Ohrid itself numbered to 38,000 Albanian inhabitants and 36,500 non-Albanian (Bulgars, Serbs, Vlachs and Albanian Christians who recognised the exarch and were therefore classed as Bulgarians). Alltan (talk) 19:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

A subcategory under Demographics labelled as 'Historical Demographics' would be the most effective method to address this issue in my opinion. We should remove all of the demographic information from the Modern subsection of the History section and just group it all together under the new Historical Demographics subsection. Making things easy to read for everyone is productive and user-friendly; I'll make an effort to tidy up what I've added as well. There will be no interruption to the History part by creating this new subsection. Should there be no complaints to this I will make the change soon. Botushali (talk) 23:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

WP Albania

@Local hero, I don't agree with the removal of WP Albania from this, same thing with Struga, the town is almost 50% Albanian. WP MKD covers all ethnic groups within the country I am not aware of such a thing. Well, but let's stay here.

The name developed under strong, Albanian-Slavic contact (V. Friedman (2003), M Curtis (2012), S. Demiraj (2006)) from A.G. Lychnidus, pseudo attempts to explain it through a Slavic vo rid (or so) failed. It was ruled by the Gropa family for some decades and census during the Middle Ages confirm Albanian presence in the city. One of the most famous battles fought by Skanderbeg was fought at Ohrid. That definitely warrants WPAL staying, considering WPGR and WPBG are there too.

I don't agree with putting the Alb. name into the lead, as it's been suggested in the past, but WPALB can stay here. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree as well Bulgaria has a history in Ohrid as well and they are included why cant Albania be included when they have a history here as well and has a considerable amount of Albanians present in the city today. That seems biased to me. Arberian2444 (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's much concrete policy as to when a WikiProject banner should be placed on an article's talkpage. So it seems that if the WikiProject members find an article to be within their scope, then it can be placed. Unless I'm wrong, I won't revert its inclusion. It's not obvious to me why this article would fall within WikiProject Albania even after reading your points, but I guess that's up to you. I hadn't paid much attention to these before and, as one of you pointed out, I was surprised to see WikiProject Serbia at Talk:Skopje. I'll note that I've never placed WPMKD at articles within Pustec, for instance, but I guess it would actually be appropriate. Best. --Local hero ^talk 00:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes it works both ways. I think it would be appropriate to include WPMKD to Pustec because it is home to much of the Macedonian minority in Albania. Just like how Struga,Diber,Tetovo,etc.. is home to the Albanian minority in Macedonia. Arberian2444 (talk) 01:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I‘d agree on that. Feel free to add WPMKD to Pustec. It’s not very uncommon, for instance, Sarandë is part of WP Greece, even though the Greek population there constitutes less than 20% or Gjirokaster, where Greeks form around 7%, or so. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)