Talk:Olympiastadion (Berlin)

Hertha

Is this the stadium for Hertha?

Yes.ed g2s • talk 10:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Detailed, interesting article...but needs copyedit

I also made an attempt to clean up this article, but it still needs work, especially towards the end. Simon, 5 January 2006

This is obviously translated from German. It's a lengthy article, with many interesting facts and tidbits, however, the grammar needs to be re-worked for flow, as it is very laborious for English readers to get through. --Sirimiri 17:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I've given it a go. I hope I haven't introduced inaccuracies. Estrellador* 16:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I haven't combed through it yet....what can I say? But I aim to get to it one of these days... Any little bit helps :) --Sirimiri 05:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I have time to go through the page, so i'm going to try to get it done over the next week or two --Vaud 17:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It might help to get the german article this was translated from --Vaud 17:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

lol... wasnt translated at all, was all googling... I wrote it just having fun :) --Zzzzzzus 23:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzus

It's been very entertaining correcting the grammar from the Spanish-influenced original text--Adel Montevega

Meter -> Metre

I've converted remaining meters to metres, the article should be consistent and more were already res. It is a European site anyway. . . John (Jwy) 02:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Since when are British European? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.194.224.36 (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

huh???

Can this be true?

 . After the war, the United Kingdom military occupation used it as its headquarters until 1994.

1994??? Maybe 1954? 75.80.24.43 21:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No, 1994 makes sense. West Berlin was occupied by the UK, US and France until 1994. - 52 Pickup 14:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the British HQ was based not in the Olympic Stadium, but next door in the Sportforum. See here: http://www.alliierteinberlin.de/Grossbritannien_e.html 198.43.100.41 02:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Olympia (film) / Leni Riefenstahl?

Shouldn't there be some mention of the history of this stadium, being that Leni Riefenstahl made her movie "Olympia" her (be it in the old stadium)? Greetngs, RagingR2 11:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Olympiastadionlogo2.jpg

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BetacommandBot 02:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

S-bahn station

It would be informative to mention the related Olympiastadion S-bahn station. Is it now back in use? When I visited and took photos in 1993, it had obviously been abandoned for many years—since the 1961 Berlin Wall or the 1945 end of WWII?  JGHowes  ^talk 14:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

back in the 1920s?

This article says:

After the war, the former Reichssportfeld was used as headquarters of the military occupation forces of Britain.

The British forces settled in the northern buildings of the March siblings (back in the 1920s),

Could "built in the 1920" have been intended? Michael Hardy (talk) 15:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

bizarre chronology

This weird paragraph appears here:

The Waldbühne was built by using the glacial river banks of the Berlin glacial valley. It is a reproduction of the old theater of Epidaurus (3rd century BC). The theater was then named "Dietrich-Eckart-Bühne" in homage to Dietrich Eckart.

"Then" in this context would normally mean "at that time". What time is referred to??? The 3rd century BC?? Certainly that is false. The time when the theatre was built? But it doesn't say when that was! Michael Hardy (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

File:Panorama Berliner Olympiastadion-Glockenturm.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Albert Speer's role in redesigning Otto March's "concrete structure with glass partition walls"?

On page 80 of the 1970 edition of Inside the Third Reich, Albert Speer writes that:

The German Olympic Committee was thrown into a quandary when [so-and-so] showed Hitler the first plans for the rebuilding of the Olympic Stadium. Otto March...had designed a concrete structure with glass partition walls...Hitler went to inspect the site and came back in a state of anger and agitation...he would never set foot inside a modern glass box like that.

Speer continues:

Overnight I made a sketch showing how the steel skeleton already built could be clad in natural stone and have more massive cornices added. The glass partitions were eliminated, and Hitler was content...Professor March agreed to the changes, and the Olympic Games were held in Berlin after all...

I didn't see any mention of Speer's contribution to the Berlin Olympic Stadium in the article - have I missed something? I'm not a specialist on buildings, just interested in Speer, re-reading his memoirs and thought he claimed a role for himself in the redesign that was implemented. Has it not been added to the article for a particular reason? Thanks. Azx2 17:53, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Tenants

I removed several links from the tenant list as all of them are temporary events that the stadium hosted. Even the stadium's namesake wasn't a tenant, similar to the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. A tenant is typically a team or organization that is based at a facility and uses it as their home venue. The Olympic games are held at several venues, as are large tournaments like the World Cup. But the Olympics and the World Cup are not headquartered at that stadium; the organizations that run them are simply there in town for a fixed amount of time on a clearly temporary basis, similar to conference championship games and tournaments and the Super Bowl. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Capacity, permament and extended

Hello

I have introduced the concept of "permanent capacity" into the article. The reason for this is because the capacity can be extended, and I think we should descibe this extended capacity as it is used a few times per season. But what is the permanent capacity? The article about Hertha BSC says 74,064 and 74,255 seats. Other sources say 74,244. The official webpage of Hertha BSC says 74,649 and the official webpage of the Olympiastadion says 74,475. I guess that the permanent capacity has changed over times, but what is the current permanent capacity?

See:

http://www.herthabsc.de/de/stadion/olympiastadion/das-olympiastadion/page/598-1006-89--.html

http://www.olympiastadion-berlin.de/en/stadium-visitor-centre/facts-and-figures.html

When I searched for information about the extended capacity I found two articles from 2014 that say that 405 new seats had been installed permanently and which gave a new (permanent) capacity of 74,649 seats. (That means that the previous permanent capacity was 74,244 seats). The same articles also say that the capacity can be further extended by adding a mobile stand with 1,548 seats to the Marathon Arch. The articles say that the extended capacity is 76,197 seats.

http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin-aktuell/article126119328/Berliner-Olympiastadion-erhaelt-405-zusaetzliche-Sitze.html

http://www.herthabsc.de/de/fans/kapazitaet-olympiastadion/page/4736--59-59--59.html

I would like to add these figures to the article, in order to describe the extended capacity, but it feels useless if the permanent capacity has changed since 2014. The extended capacity is the sum of the number of permanent seats plus the number of extensional seats. If the number of permanent seats is no longer the same as in 2014 (74,649 seats), the calculation is no longer valid for the current extended capacity.

What should I do?

My proposition is:

1. Use the detailed figures given by the official webpage of the Olympiastadion.
2. Just mention that the capacity can be extended and that the extended capacity was 76,197 seats in 2014.

EriFr (talk) 17:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The article about Hertha BSC says that the extended capacity is 77,116 seats. This appears to be true, but for 2011 and 2013. See:

http://www.rp-online.de/sport/fussball/zweiteliga/77116-fans-im-berliner-olympiastadion-aid-1.2438543

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/sport/hertha-erwaegt-aufbau-einer-zusatztribuene,10808794,22576180.html

EriFr (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

English vs. German title on English Wikipedia

Secret Agent Julio:

The Olympic Stadium in Berlin certainly is not "widely known in English" as the Olympiastadion.

Olympiastadion is a German word and construct. This is English Wikipedia. Your revert is unfounded and preposterous. How can you possibly argue that this historically famous (or infamous) stadium is known in English as a Stadion, the German word? Quatsch! Ridiculous!

Consider:

• The German Olympiastadion, Berlin gets 236,000 hits on Google..
• The English Olympic Stadium, Berlin gets 1,570,000 hits – almost seven times as many as the German.

Please reconsider, and undo these mysterious, counter-intuitive, ill-advised and illogical reverts. Sca (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Once again, as I mentioned on my talk page, I did a Google search, and for "Olympiastadion Berlin" ([1]) I got 585,000 results, while "Olympic Stadium Berlin" got only 62,200 results ([2]). Lots of stadium names contain foreign words, yet they still often contain these words when referred to in English. Even UEFA refers to it as the Olympiastadion. This is a major stadium, so maybe gain consensus before deciding to move it and reword the entire article? Secret Agent Julio (talk) 02:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Once again, this is English Wikipedia. Perhaps in the world of athletics the stadium is more widely known by its German name, even among English speakers, though I doubt the latter case.

I've been reading German history for a lifetime and I can tell you that in English historiography it's almost universally known as the Olympic Stadium (site of the 'Nazi' Olympics, Jesse Owens, Leni Riefenstahl, etc.). To anyone conversant in 20th century German history, of whom there are millions in the English-speaking world, it's quite annoying, even jarring, to see it referred to in English as the Olympiastadion.

I say this as one who has a good command of German and a fairly extensive frame of reference regarding 20th century German history, with all its deeply troubling issues.

Regarding the discrepancy between your hit counts and mine, I did use Firefox rather than Google, but in my non-techie way I didn't think that would make an appreciable difference. Sca (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I do not understand this argument: "Olympiastadion is a German word and construct. This is English Wikipedia." What does it matter if the name contains German words? Several stadiums have names that contain foreign words (for examples, see: Stadio Olimpico and Stade de France). Do you think that we should also change the name "Stade de France" to "France Stadium"? This is, after all, English Wikipedia, not French Wikipedia... I think that Secret Agent Julio is completely right in his argument. The question is what name is better known, whether this name contains German words or not. I have no real opinion on that question, but I am not convinced that "Olympic Stadium, Berlin" is the name we should go with. I have noticed that British newspapers used both names in their reports on the 2015 UEFA Champions League final. /EriFr (talk) 23:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The term Olympic stadium means a stadium used for the Olympics.

The term Olympiastadion means a stadium used for the Olympics.

The difference between the two terms is that one is English, the other in German. (It's more common in German to combine two or more words into longer words than it is in English.)

(In both cases the key words are borrowed from Greek and Latin, respectively.)

Here are links to two versions of Wikipedia. One is in English, the other in German.

It may reasonably be presumed that most readers of English Wikipedia speak English as a first or second language, and understand that language well. It may not be presumed that most of them speak German.

It may reasonably be presumed that most readers of German Wikipedia speak German as a first or second language, and understand that language well. It may not be presumed that most of them speak English (though many do).

Verstanden? Comprendre? Do you get my drift? Sca (talk) 22:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@Sca:I fully understand the language differences, but this is a not a simple question of writing with German words or English words. "Olympiastadion Berlin" is a name, just like "Stade de France". It is a registered trademark at the DPMA. I doubt that "Olympiastadion" is less comprehensible than "Stade de France" for English readers, but I have never read any suggestion to translate "Stade de France" to "France Stadium". It would be absurd for Wikipedia to translate names, simply to facilitate reading. However, I realize that names are often written differently in foreign languages, and that "Olympic Stadium Berlin" is sometimes used to denote the stadium in English speaking countries, but unless that name is the better known, I see no reason to change. /EriFr (talk) 11:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok. Maybe I misunderstood your point. I think we can agree that both "Olympiastadion Berlin" and "Olympic Stadium Berlin" are used to denote the stadium in English speaking countries, but you suggest that we use "Olympic Stadium Berlin" since it is not written in German, and thus more comprehensible to English readers? Am I right? /EriFr (talk) 13:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Both versions are generic terms, just in different languages. And I reiterate my point above about English-language historiography using "Olympic Stadium" for this famous place. Thus, it seems only logical to use the English phrase on English-language Wiki.

Others may argue that encyclopedia readers should be, in effect, forced to learn the official name in the local language. I disagree. (Even though I can read German.) The purpose of an encyclopedia is to convey information in a manner readily understood by the readers. On English-language WP, would we title an article about the Olympic Stadium in Moscow Олимпиада стадиону, Москва (Olimpiada Stadiony, Moskva) just to use the Russian name? I don't think so. Sca (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think a non-Latin alphabet stadium name is very comparable to this situation. Some more comparable stadium names include:

• Olympisch Stadion (Antwerp) in Belgium
• Estadio Olímpico Benito Juárez in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico
• Stadio Olimpico Del Ghiaccio in Cortina d'Ampezzo, Italy
• Stade olympique de la Pontaise in Lausanne, Switzerland
• Estadio Olímpico Universitario in Mexico City, Mexico
• Stade Olympique Yves-du-Manoir in Paris, France
• Estádio Olímpico Monumental in Porto Alegre, Brazil
• Estadio Olímpico Atahualpa in Quito, Ecuador
• Estádio Olímpico João Havelange in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
• Stadio Olimpico in Rome, Italy
• Stadio Olimpico Grande Torino in Turin, Italy

Not all "foreign" language stadium names are so complex that they require the reader to "learn the local language". In this case, the stadium is often referred to as the Olympiastadion, which is not very different than any of the above stadiums. Clearly other stadiums, like the Moscow Olympic Stadium, are going to be directly translated to English since Russian uses the Cyrillic alphabet. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

No one has offered a convincing rationale for not using the English term on English Wiki. Sca (talk) 01:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

In addition to the Google searches I mentioned, UEFA and FIFA both refer to it as the Olympiastadion. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 02:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

We should stick with the most commonly used name. The current name has been stable for quite some time, we should therefore reach consensus before it is changed. @Sca: I suggest you get familiar with: WP:COMMONNAME, WP:TITLECHANGES, and Wikipedia:Article titles. /EriFr (talk) 14:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

The branding of the building is "Olympiastadion Berlin". This is another potential title for the article. (See the numerous stadiums in North America that are branded, and we use the branded name) For google search "olympic stadium" and berlin, I got 526,000 results. For "olympiastadion" and berlin, I got 418,000 results, so I don't think we have a "clear winner", as this seems 60-40. Why not simply name it according to the current branding "Olympiastadion Berlin" and be done with it? It is unambiguous, and I don't believe it is an issue for English readers. Stadion is not very different than the English word Stadium, which is, of course, a 'borrow word' itself. Alaney2k (talk) 17:00, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

And I forgot to mention that "stadion" is not originally a german word, but a greek word. Stadium is the Roman version of Stadion. So both are not German in origin. See Stadium#Etymology. Alaney2k (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Looks like your eagle eye missed the following comment posted by yours truly above:

(In both cases the key words are borrowed from Greek and Latin, respectively.) Sca (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Too much writing. Alaney2k (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Olympiastadion Berlin might be a better title according to the official stadium name. No need for the city to be in parentheses if it is part of the actual name. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can figure out, those of you who favor Olympiastadion Berlin are viewing the issue from an athletics point of view. But the Olympic Stadium in Berlin is much more broadly significant than athletics due to its early history. The '36 Olympics were designed to showcase a "nice" Nazi Germany to the world – not the savage one that lay beneath the facade. The Juden unerwünscht signs were put away temporarily, and a few partly Jewish athletes, such as Helene Mayer, were actually allowed to participate.

Here's a better analogy than the Moscow Olympic Stadium mentioned above: On English WP, the article about the Berlin Wall is titled Berlin Wall, not Berliner Mauer.

– Schönen Tag noch. Sca (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Clearly the Berlin Wall falls under WP:COMMONNAME, while the Olympiastadion is not as straightforward, as Alaney2k mentioned. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 00:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

While the '36 Olympics should not be forgotten, they were not memorable because of the name of the facilities. Alaney2k (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The '36 Olympics will never be forgotten. They were notable because of the Nazis.

The rise of Nazism was the single most notable event of the 20th century, due to all its consequences.

– Sca (talk) 14:33, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but what does that have to do with the stadium name? The article has maintained a stable title, so I do not see a reason to entirely change it. But I think Olympiastadion Berlin might be a more fitting title, since that is very similar to the current article title, and is also the official stadium name. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 18:40, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Maintaining a stable article title is of no significance, either to the millions of readers of English Wikipedia or to the profound human issues that remain forever associated in English with the Olympic Stadium in Berlin and the Olympics staged there 80 years ago. Sca (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, as EriFr mentioned, there is WP:TITLECHANGES. And the same argument could be made for the Stadio Olimpico to be renamed to Olympic Stadium (Rome), yet it uses the Italian name. There seems to be little compelling evidence that "Olympic Stadium Berlin" is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 21:35, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Unsinn. Tschuß. Sca (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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