Talk:Omar Ali-Shah

Is he still alive?

Untitled

OK, I know Omar Ali Shah is real - I have one of his books and have seen photos, etc. I even know members of his "group". He translated The Rubbayat with Robert Graves... But I can find almost nothing about him. Then, someone told me 6 months ago that he was dead. Someone added the helpful note that he was still alive to the main article, but I removed it for now.

Anyone with any info?

--Chinawhitecotton 00:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a mention of him in Documents On Contemporary Dervish Communities, by Roy Weaver Davidson, London Hoopoe Press 1966 p.17Sidney Harry 22:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Agha

Omar Ali Shah died on September 2nd 2005 at the age of 83. As far as I know, his son Arif (a screenwriter) is now carrying on his father's responsibilities in relation to the tradition and the previous groups seem to be still continuing.

Segovius 12:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have got book "The Rubaiyyat of Omar Khayaam" from my penfriend named Umar Ali Shah from India many years ago.My name is Maria Kuleszyńska Kozak and I live in Zielona Góra of Poland.I would be like if my penpal will write me something. My mail is kochregi@op.pl

Does anyone know who his mother was?

Does anyone know who his mother was? Was he a full brother of Idries Shah? Mulla Nasruddin 08:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mulla Nasruddin (talk • contribs) 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC). There is no mention of this man, in the works of Idries Shah, the two published books of Morag Murray Abdullah, nor in the works of Saira Shah, Tahir Shah or Safia Shah. I have looked at nine works by Ikbal Ali Shah and found no reference to this individual.Sidney Harry 21:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, all three children -- Omar, Idries and Amina -- were full siblings. Idries and Omar worked together at first and then fell out at some relatively early point. Augy Hayter, a pupil of both Idries and then Omar Ali-Shah, goes into some of the background in this book: ISBN 2909347141 Jayen466 21:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no mention of this man in the works of Amina Shah that I can recall. Sidney Harry 22:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You should also be able to find more info in the archives of this discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/caravansarai/messages/ Jayen466 22:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I looked at it.

All incoherent ramblings very much like the books of Omar Ali Shah. I was just curious to know what drew seemingly intelligent people to what is obviously not aligned with the authentic Sufi tradition which can be accessed via the classical literature...

Also if Omar had been Morag Murray's first born son , you'd think she would have made a mention of it.Sidney Harry 22:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

More info here: http://geocities.com/metaco8nitron/moore.html Jayen466 10:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have seen this, it is a bitter and emotional piece written by a would be disciple of Gurdjieff and J G Bennett. It is mostly subjective and unreliable. Author has very little first hand information, and does not seem to know much about Morag Murray (Elizabeth Louise MacKenzie). I must say that Elwell-Sutton seemed like a fool to me and the confused Gurjieff is hardly a Sufi teacher. Some of the information regarding the Rubaiyat Omar Khayyam is not accurate. Idries Shah did not promise to produce the disputed manuscript. Robert Graves & Omar Ali Shah's translation, though poor, may have been based on a manuscript.Sidney Harry 21:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, the Moore piece has an agenda. But interesting that you say Idries Shah did not promise to produce the manuscript. Could you tell me more, or point me the way to further info?

Idries Shah has been quoted, by Hayter e.g., as referring to OAS as "my brother" in private conversation.

With regard to the above yahoo group, I thought you might be able to find some info in the archive (the current discussions indeed contain a lot of mumbo jumbo, but some interesting people who met either Idries Shah or Omar Ali-Shah have posted there at various times in the past). Another possibility is that you could write to Tahir or Arif Shah (Tahir Shah has a website with contact info) to enquire further, if it is important to you. Jayen466 11:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's right, I read that Idries Shah refused to get involved, in 'Between Moon and Moon', the Letters of Roberts Graves. You can follow the correspondence in that book regarding this. There is also a note regarding Arberry's Khayyam manuscript being finally diagnosed as a forgery. By then Graves was too ill to be told about it.

OAS I believe is a brother of Idries Shah, but not necessarily a full brother. This may have a relevance to those who followed him because of his lineage rather than the quality of his work. It may also explain why no-one in the Shah family seems to refer to him. There are some interesting stories of his aberrant behaviour as a result of alcohol abuse.

I don't think I will bother to write to Tahir Shah, but Arif Shah might be forthcoming.Sidney Harry 21:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the book title. Hayter, a pupil of OAS, mentions alcohol and other forms of behaviour on the part of OAS that some might find intensely objectionable in the book I indicated above. Could you let me know if you find out more, either here or on my talk page? Cheers, Jayen466 21:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry CS was not more useful, but someone there mentioned citizendium, and I note they have an entry on Morag_Murray_Abdullah -- not that it proves anything, but FWIW. Jayen466 17:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Idries and Omar Ali-Shah: Paris group

I've recently come across a source-bare interview in which Catherine Hayter, interviewed by Edgardo Canton, talks about the early days in Paris under the joint direction of Idries and Omar Ali-Shah before they "agreed to disagree". If anyone has a reference to the original article (publication name, date, page numbers) that would be really, really useful. The Wikipedia articles on Idries Shah and Omar Ali-Shah are lacking mention of the disagreement, groups and exercises. EricT (talk) 17:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Augy Hayter's book Fictions and Factions has similar material. If you get ahold of that book there's a lot about OAS and IS in it.Jlburton (talk) 00:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)jlburton Jlburton (talk) 00:27, 13 November 2009 (UTC)jlburton

Yes, I've mentioned Augy Hayter's book before, but as it's self-published there's the question of reliability. Have a word with Jayen466. Esowteric+Talk 09:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Omar Ali-Shah's successor

We can't use this as a "reliable source", however here is the fatwah by Omar Ali-Shah naming Arif Ali-Shah as his successor, and Arif's acceptance of that role:

FATWAH

In the event of my death it is my solemn wish and Command that all friends of the Tradition shall recognize my son Syed Hashim Arif Ali-Shah as my successor and that he may appoint Advisors or Councillors as he may desire.

I Command that you should give to Syed Arif, carrying as he does the Baraka of the Silsilah, the respect you gave to me and that the structure and activities of the Tradition as laid down by me should continue as before.

May Almighty God bless you all. Syed Omar Ali-Shah Naqshbandi

REPLY

A fax, dated 17 of September 2005 and signed Arif Ali-Shah states:

FACSIMILE

Dear Friends

This is to confirm that, in accordance with the last wishes of my father, Sayed Omar Ali-Shah, I undertake to continue his work to protect, nurture and advance the work of the Tradition - this work which is vital to humanity.

As did my father, I count with your support and efforts along this road, and you may count with mine.

This work is already continuing. I will ask for nothing more than that which my father asked of you all: hard work in humility and to trust in the Lord for his patience and love.

The road is open and I will walk it. Walk with me in the company of our great master Agha, who gave us all so much and who has now given the opportunity to give in return.

Con Dios

Arif Ali Shah (manuscript signature added)

Esowteric | Talk 11:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Note, also see:

• Contemporary activities with a Naqshbandi Sufi teacher, Arif Ali-Shah Esowteric | Talk 11:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

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