Talk:Onoff (Irish band)

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Requested move 25 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved per consensus achieved below. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  17:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

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On/Off (Irish band) → Onoff (Irish band) – I don't know were the slash came from (@In ictu oculi: can you explain it?), but sources clearly indicate this is an invented name. RM opened because this can go to Onoff (Irish band), Onoff (band) or even ONOFF, ONOFF (band), ONOFF (Irish band) per the same sources. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:39, 25 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 18:08, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per On/Off (Japanese band) and (mediocre) sources Hotpress - album review Hotpress - Promise Great Things At The Music Show and Hey Jack! You're Late! Year, 2002. This is clearly a stylism. And given that the Irish band is even less notable than the Japanese one we don't want to make life difficult for users. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

• On/Off (Irish band), an Irish punk-rock band
• On/Off (Japanese band), a Japanese j-pop band
• On/Off (ONF EP), 2017
• On/Off (Run On EP), 1995

@In ictu oculi:, your opposition makes no sense. You oppose the move to "Onoff (Irish band)" (in other words, to remove the slash, regardless how the parenthesis will end) yet you provide sources calling the band "Onoff", which contradicts WP:COMMONAME. You, somehow, believe "Onoff" is a stylization (without sources), yet you somehow decide "On/Off" is not an stylization nor an invention because of the name of an unrelated band. Do you even pay attention to what you say? © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 19:15, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Sources

Some might be unreliable as the band is kind of obscure but yet there are plenty of sources, so it is notable for an article.

• Onoff: [1]
• OnOff: [2], [3], [4]
• ONOFF: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]
• On Off: [16],
• ON/OFF: [17]
• On/Off: None I could find. Perhaps the above knows something as he is the one that keeps defending it. IIO, is this Tal Vez over again?

The majority of sources use all caps. Even if we applied WP:ALLCAPS then the title would be "Onoff" (or even "OnOff" as CamelCases are acceptable). But the thing is the slash is very rare even within the few sources that discuss the band. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:39, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• Still oppose there aren't sufficient consistent 3rd party sources to make this borderline notable band not need (Irish band), how to represent the stylism of the name as On/off on OnOff is of no great consequence. No objection to OnOff. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:52, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

In fact it is a great consequence (not for the band, but for you as an editor), because you still saying it is a style despite the fact you are not presenting sources that call them with a slash. Why would it be "On/Off"? Perhaps they are "On-off" or what if Onoff is Irish for something else. You cannot make such decisions, sources do, and among those sources we have Fox News, CBS and The Mercury News, which are not trivial sources. The current name goes against WP:COMMONAME, WP:MOSTM and WP:OR, and you perfectly know it. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 17:48, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Please, have you counted the non-CAPS sources you just presented? Voiding the CAPS sources what is the pronunciation of the band? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:06, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation is irrelevant. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:31, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. In ictu oculi states opposition because "(Irish band)" is needed. However, the request does not seek to remove that disambiguator. Since In ictu could also writes that the capitalization and slash are of no great consequence, there does not seem to be any opposition to the proposal as it stands at this point. Dekimasuよ! 23:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

.......The only problem is that the band is not "Onoff" it is "OnOff" per e.g. "OnOff, winners of the competition to open the live stage at The Music Show this weekend, are gearing up for what is the biggest Irish gig of their career to date." So that is two words On Off. We cannot rely on the ALLCAPS sources because they don't tell us how local sources pronounce this as one word or two. Taking them out we then get two words On Off, and shouldn't make it into one word onoff. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

There it is @Dekimasu:, it was already clear with this edit. The thing is he keeps insisting to add a slash against WP:COMMONAME ("determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources"; 16-1 for example) and WP:MOSTM ("editors should examine styles already in use by independent sources. From among those, choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner. Do not invent new styles that are not used by independent sources"), basing solely in either other topics or pronunciation, which is are not policy. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:31, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

If the name is generally written in all caps, and it's not an initialism, then we take out the caps, which would yield Onoff. If it is generally written in CamelCase we tend to respect that if sources do (in this case, CamelCase seems to make it more readable, which is the rule to be employed; CamelCase is not deprecated). Both of those are parts of MOS:TMRULES. Further, the pronunciation would seem to be the same whether this is considered one word or two. Dekimasuよ! 22:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

• Since I now seem to be part of the discussion: Support a move to something supported by sources, either Onoff (Irish band) (per the sources using Onoff or ONOFF) or OnOff (Irish band) (per the sources using CamelCase). Dekimasuよ! 22:36, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support Onoff (band). This appears to be the actual name, and there are no other bands with that name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:22, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support Onoff (band) or ONOFF. The slash seems to be an invented stylization that the band does not use. CookieMonster755✉ 18:31, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Calidum 7:50 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5

The sources for On/Off above are not "invented" (WTF?) it's simply WP:CAPS, this band is not titled with an acronym. Note for example the line in the stub article "In September 2009 ONOFF was voted Best Unsigned Band in leading Irish Music Magazine HOTPRESS. The competition was a public vote. ONOFF won a headline slot on the LIVE STAGE at the 2009 HOTPRESS MUSIC SHOW at the R.D.S Dublin." Are HOTPRESS, LIVE STAGE and HOTPRESS MUSIC SHOW caps terms? No. These are possibly indications that the article was made using copy-paste from a blog of some sort and should be edited down to normal "Hotpress, live stage" etc.

But as said above already: OnOff (Irish band) would be better, for example: Young Millionaires Lindsay Holloway, 2006 "De'Leon, who was born in Barbados and raised in South Carolina, stayed true to her passion, finding inspiration in music industry icons like Jimi Hendrix, who also managed to break through racial barriers. Today, some of Dirrty Records' rock projects include The Fades from London, OnOff from Ireland and Athanator from South America." As what little sources there are show, Onoff (sic), is not better as these are two words in the better sources. But frankly who cares, as long as it has (Irish band) it'll be clear it isn't the Japanese band. Aren't there better things to do in the New Year? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:27, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

In ictu oculi is correct that the Reno newspaper link exists (it took a while to load, but it did load eventually). However, the venue that actually hosted the concert mentioned by the Reno newspaper did not credit them as ON/OFF: ONOFF/Jonny Manak and The Depressives/Donkey Jaw/Amahjra. It seems to be a typo that isn't reproduced much elsewhere, or maybe the work of an overactive copyeditor. Dekimasuよ! 02:20, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Well there is no reason to say "WTF" :) thanks. CookieMonster755✉ 00:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.