Talk:Opera House (Final Fantasy VI)

Merge to Celes Chere

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was no consensus. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

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In examining the sigcov in this article, most of it seems to deal with Celes Chere, not the Opera House itself.

1. [1] This source discusses the Opera House, but not in a capacity that would divorce it from Celes, especially considering a large portion is spent talking about Celes, including the more significant coverage of how Celes' performance moved them despite the limited tech.
2. [2] This speaks of the Opera House as a great moment, but for the scenes that happen in it, not the location itself. This would also be usable in Celes' article, as the coverage, just like Kotaku's, talks about how believable the singing was.
3. [3] This source talks more about Celes than it does the Opera House in its own section, offering very little that is not relevant to Celes more so.
4. [4] This source is about how how it contributed to Celes' character development.
5. [5] A brief mention about a cameo in Undertale.

The other sources deal with the creation of the scene, both of which work for Celes' article. [6] talks about creating the scene, which could be mixed into Celes' discussion. Meanwhile, [7] is more relevant, as the enhancement of vocals in the scene apply to Celes directly, as one of the characters whose vocals were changed (arguably the most prominent of the vocals changed).

If the Opera House is a notable subject, it's clearly not independently notable from other subjects like FF6 or Celes herself. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as page creator. It feels like a stretch to claim the Opera House is only related to the character development of Celes. While Celes is the opera singer in the scene, the Kotaku article also praises the music and the section after the song where you dash across the rafters, where Celes is not even in your party. Similarly, the IGN article doesn't even mention the word "Celes", which is not a fantastic sign that it would be viable in her article. Game Informer mentions the rafters scene too (as being inspired by The Man Who Knew Too Much), and the artwork of the opera house itself, unrelated to Celes, who is merely a participant in the level as a singer.

If people think the Opera House fails GNG, that's understandable, despite the fact that I disagree, but this discussion doesn't seem to claim that, and if so, I don't think there's anywhere it would make sense to merge this. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm certainly arguing it fails GNG in that its notability is inherent to either FF6 or Celes. As far as the Kotaku source, framing it as praising the section after the opera is a strange interpretation. The article provides almost no commentary about that part of the scene, with the only commentary being that it was a frustrating scene. This definitely doesn't constitute sigcov for that portion of the scene. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Merge The subject just doesn't meet stand alone notability when examining the sources. Much of what's said isn't about the opera house itself so much as Celes and Final Fantasy VI themselves, in either how it developed her character or people's reactions to it in the context of the game.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:47, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Kung Fu Man: Found an additional source from Destructoid here, as expected it's not solely about Celes either. If its notability was shaky before, I think this definitely puts it on solid ground. If not, I'd like to know how the Kotaku page, this IGN and GameRevolution together still fail GNG. (As an aside there is also this equally-sized piece about the World of Ruin as well). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  @ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ Well WP:NOPAGE is definitely a consideration here. While there is some discussion of it on its own, it's hard to really understand without the greater context of FF6 and what's going on there, and the signifigance of this moment to these characters. Think of it in the same context of trying to make an article on Aerith's death: yeah, you can find sources that focus entirely on it, but without the rest of the context it doesn't ring the same: most of it will reflect on either her character, or Final Fantasy VII. This is one of the big problems with trying to build an article around a boss fight or scene in a game, as they're often tied to that one entity and while memorable, they make the game memorable in their context, rather than the fight by itself. By contrast, the Ultima Online killing of Lord British is an event that needs little discussion, and the examinations of it cover the context of it outside the scope of the character and the game and why it mattered outside of both (bringing that up to illustrate a consistency in my thinking here). The Opera House scene just doesn't have the same weight on its own.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  As far as the WoR source goes, I would not contend that it's about the WoR at all. It's about an event that happens to a character during the World of Ruin, which I think is no more relevant to WoR than, say, an article about Dancing Mad. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 06:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Destructoid states that the scene is "a very famous scene held dear to many gamers’ hearts that may quite possibly be my favorite video game moment of all time." IGN states that "Final Fantasy VI's opera scene might be the most important scene in Final Fantasy history." This moment is widely known even to non-Final Fantasy players, and made a large impact on games as a whole. NOPAGE says that sometimes "standalone pages are well justified", I'd argue the impact of this scene makes it one of those times. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Destructoid stated that the scene of Celes singing was a famous scene, yeah. They do provide commentary on the surrounding parts, but not only do the surrounding parts mostly also deal with Celes, but the parts are framed as the less significant parts of why the Opera House is good. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 06:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Destructoid did not specifically refer to Celes when saying that it was a famous scene. It includes everything after Celes' performance under "The Moment" heading, making it clear it's talking about the whole thing, including the parts minus Celes. It also makes it clear the author considers the events afterwards, though lesser, still on par with the performance.

  I get that the opera is intrinsically linked to Celes, but I simply don't see journalists going "the Celes scene is important, and everything after that is pure window dressing". I think it's clear we won't see eye to eye on this, however. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Zx the problem you're not getting is while the merge discussion is saying Celes as the target, some of this is also more appropriate for FF6 as an article. A stand alone isn't warranted.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Kung Fu Man: Is there a reason the FF6 article isn't tagged with a merge too then? Much fewer people are even cognizant of this discussion given it's tagged as a merge to an obscure character article. As far as I am concerned, this merge is solely discussing merging the article wholesale to Celes, otherwise the procedure for merger to other articles has not been followed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why are you asking a question that Kung Fu Man has absolutely no ability to answer - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  To answer the question myself, the reason it's not tagged is because a large bulk of the article, if merged, would make more sense in Celes. Whether something can be merged into FF6 is immaterial. If anything doesn't make sense to be merged into Celes, just merge it into FF6. This is a non-problem because the solution is extremely basic and easy to do. What you seem to be saying is that editors of the FF6 article should be informed about a relevant FF6 merge, but I don't really think that is a normal procedure, especially since people on the Video games AND Square Enix project are made aware of this discussion. It also ruffles me a bit when you make such a complaint, as you have failed to inform me of AfDs in the past in which I was a significant contributor to, as it makes it seem like you're invoking a procedure you do not take caution to fulfill yourself. "Rules for thee, but not for me" kind of thing. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 00:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Merge Copying in my comment from World of Ruin - This article is a great example of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Can you write four sourced paragraphs on one small component of a video game? Sure. Should you do that? No, because you end up with something with no real weighting according to importance that's also completely out of context. This is, essentially, just "various people's opinions on one part of FF6", plus a little bit of development that would fit better at FF6, and sources or no that shouldn't be a stand-alone article. This isn't World 1-1 here. --PresN 12:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@PresN: I expanded it a fair bit by integrating a newly discovered source into the article; hopefully that will address the concerns about the article being overly small to be split out, since a main complaint was that it was just four paragraphs.

I do think "this isn't World 1-1 here" is a bit reductive, as you are suggesting World 1-1 is the only notable video game level ever made, which can't possibly be true and would be pretty depressing if it really was, since it implies games had not advanced ever since Super Mario Bros.. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I don't see the source saying that the sprites were good? Looking at it, Hamilton seems to say that the Opera Scene is effective in spite of its sprites. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 07:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Destructoid states "Even saying it is a perfect combination of video game music, unique gameplay, and exquisitely drawn sprites does not do the scene justice." ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Keep – I do think this article stands on its own, and I don't think merging it into Celes would be helpful. I think the level of detail presented in sources about this scene specifically makes it a perfectly reasonable article. I do commend Zxcvbnm for his work on this article, as it's a pretty stellar example of how to write about fiction in the context of our encyclopedia. It looks likely that this article will be merged, and I am curious whether we are envisioning an "Opera House" section, or whether the content of this article will be spread throughout Celes' article. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 13:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Thought I should bring this to your guys' attention. Feature: The Pitch-Perfect Storytelling Of Final Fantasy VI’s Opera, And How The Pixel Remaster Missed A Note - Nintendo Life CaptainGalaxy 19:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is a really great addition, especially because we have development for the remaster version, but no reception on it yet! ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 07:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Merge per PresN and NOPAGE. My reasoning at Talk:World of Ruin also applies here. I don't think this is a notability issue; it's a readability issue. This article lacks crucial context for the reader to understand what the topic even is. The lead has no less than 5 unexplained concepts from FF6 that make zero sense to a reader who first arrives at this article. If you were to provide all the proper context necessary, this article would just be copying vast swathes of the FF6 article. Just because something is "notable" doesn't mean that the best way to convey that information is on a separate page. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
• Keep It is notable and I think it is large and distinct enough for NOPAGE to not apply. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.