Talk:Orda (organization)

Name

Should this article being named horde; while orda should be a redirect? I'm asking because I'm interested in seeing that the most commonly searched english term be the article name. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 22:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea which of the terms is mostly widely used; I failed to find a good source for the definition or destubbing. It seems to be one of those terms common in literature that nobody bothers defining... sigh. Horde is a more common English word, but whether in the correct context orda or horde is more popular, I am hesitant to say. PS. Also, the term ordu is used rather frequently, too. PPS. I am also thinking that organization may be better than structure (so, orda (organization), not orda (structure). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

There are many references to "Mongol hordes" in my experience, but that's OR. :) Maybe this isn't a good encyclopedia topic, it being more of a wikitionary topic instead? — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 04:28, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I very much think that the term in the context of Euroasian nomad organizational structure and society is very encyclopedic, but you are welcome to ask for more comments on that, up to an AfD. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I too think that this should be at Horde per WP:COMMON and WP:ENG, perhaps merged with Ordo (palace) (BTW this article to me seems to be the result of a miscomprehension as to the nature of "ordo"), and the Horde dab page moved to Horde (disambiguation). If noone objects, let's start a move request. Constantine ✍ 09:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Ummm, as I noted above, this is about the Euroasian nomad organizational structure. That the English (well, Western, really) language sources tend to use the same several terms for different concept is confusing, but this article should not be merged with the palace one. Horde is of course more popular than orda, but I am not sure about the context. In case I am not making myself clear: the word "horde" is of course more common in English than "orda", but it has also more meanings; English academic literature do uses both "horde" and "orda" in this context, and I am not sure which is more popular. Currently I am leaning towards a move to orda (organization), and I am ambivalent on horde (organization). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Orta

Contrary to claim "Turkish orta, which means side...", orta in Turkish means center.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

If you can provide a ref for that, we could note that the sources disagree. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

http://tureng.com/search/orta How about this ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. By all means, please correct this in the article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that even in modern Turkish, ordu means "camp" or "army". Given that, the orta etymology is indeed rather strange. Constantine ✍ 09:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Orta seems like a false analysis. And ordu is a Turkic word in origin that entered Mongolian as a loanword. --Mttll (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thought

I generally take a pretty dim view of proliferation of pop culture trivia on Wikipedia but the fact that the word "horde" is derived from this orda and that "horde" has extensively entered both popular and literary usage perhaps those links should be mentioned in the article. Volunteer Marek  23:14, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Could you expand on your thought? I am not totally clear what you mean... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:31, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see why we need this article. The terminology can be fully discussed at wikt:horde, and the actual history of the Mongol Empire at the Mongol Empire article. The range of meanings can be fully covered by enumerating dictionary meanings, as in OED:

1. a. A tribe or troop of Tartar or kindred Asiatic nomads

b. Also applied to other nomadic tribes.

c. Cultural Anthropol. A loosely-knit social group consisting of about five families.

2. transf.

a. A large gathering of people, esp. of wild or fierce people;

b. Of animals: A moving swarm or pack.

What Marek is asking is, should we discuss the "2. transf." meaning. But this is exactly why we have wiktionary: to discuss the various meanings of words. Because we have wiktionary, we don't need to do this here. --dab (𒁳) 13:17, 28 April 2011 (UTC) 

I explain why I think this term is notable at #Name above. If you disagree, AfD is that'a'way. I also reverted the move per that discussion. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Merger of Ordo (palace) into this article

I don't think the merger of Ordo (palace) was correct. The words may be similar, but the meanings are as different as tent vs horde. Unless there are any objections, I'll reverse that merger shortly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Useful long-form essay on the "Mongol horde"

I read the long-form historical essay by Marie Favereau today: How the (Much Maligned) Mongol Horde Helped Create Russian Civilization, in Quillette, dated 11 June 2021. Great benefit to me and my own study of Russian history; might be useful to improve the article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 02:03, 12 June 2021 (UTC)