Talk:Order of Dobrzyń

Order or brothers?

Shouldn't this be under 'Brothers of Dobrin'? And Dobrzyń instead of Dobrin?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 1 July 2005 07:11 (UTC)

I wasn't positive about how to list it. I picked Order because almost all of the groups listed at Military order (society) are named Order. My reference books do not have a great deal of information on these knights, but they are usually listed as the "Order of" or "Knights of", not "Brothers of" (regardless of the literal translation of their name). Dobrzyn and Dobrin are both fine, I think. Older texts refer more toward the German Dobrin, while newer ones use Dobrzyn more. Olessi 1 July 2005 11:23 (UTC)

I was thinking of contemporary Livonian Brothers of the Sword. But it is true various sources use various names. I won't insist on name change - let's hear opinion of others - if anybody is interested in this at all :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 1 July 2005 14:13 (UTC)

I think that any variation of Order/Knights of Dobrin/Dobrzyn is fine. Olessi 1 July 2005 21:26 (UTC)

Fine. Then since "Older texts refer more toward the German Dobrin, while newer ones use Dobrzyn more", I think we will stick with the "newer" ones, because the "older" ones probably reflect the Cold War or even the Partitions. Space Cadet 20:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Article title

The name of this article has been disputed in the past. After over a year of it being at Order of Dobrzyń, User:Matthead moved it without prior discussion to Order of Dobrin. User:Space Cadet then copy-and-pasted it back to Order of Dobrzyń. I have restored it and its edit history to the older name of Order of Dobrzyń. Please discuss controversial title changes on talk pages first to gain consensus before moving pages around. Olessi 20:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Closed no consensus for the move. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Order of Dobrzyń → Order of Dobrin —

• "Order of Dobrin": 15 hits in Google books + three hits in Google scholar
• "Order of Dobrzyn" OR "Order of Dobrzyń": altogether eight hits in Google books + one hit in Google scholar.

Sciurinæ (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nom. Sciurinæ (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Name of town is Dobrzyn, not Dobrin. We are not ghits counters, but wikipedians. Yopie 13:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose This Google hits "science" is beginning to be ridiculous. All pre 1990 publications were using German names and a lot of post 1990 were using them as reference. The name of the town at present and at the time of founding the Order was Dobrzyń. Space Cadet (talk) 16:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• Weak support. The name of the town is irrelevant, since this article is about a knightly order, not a town. What is relevant is how English publications usually refer to the order. If English books usually use the German name instead of the Polish name, then that is how the article should be titled, as per WP:COMMONNAME. The books from the Order of Dobrin search are all from 1970 at the earliest, so that phrasing is not nearly as archaic as I had once thought. Knights of Dobrzyn has also been used fairly often, although a few are from pre-1950. Brothers of Dobrin" gives only a few hits from the 19th century, while Knights of Dobrin has been used since the 18th century to the present day. I only found a few other variations of Dobrzyń/Dobrzyn ([1][2]). Olessi (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• Once you take out the double and triple hits in Sciurinæ's results for Order of Dobrin (and the one double hit for Dobrzyń) the results are hardly convincing either way. We need stronger evidence of usage than this to make an informed decision. Knepflerle (talk) 17:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose no convincing evidence provided. --Molobo (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
• Weak support or Merge. Olessi is right upon our customs, and right on the evidence; I see no double hits. But see also #Merge? below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
  • Hmmm, neither do I any more. Puzzled indeed, I do remember counting them however! No matter, I still stand by the rest of my comment. There are so many possible namings each with fairly low frequency - whichever we pick as title, its frequency will be much less than the sum of the frequencies of the others. We'll have to make a exhaustive list of the possibilities, and make sure we have redirects from all of them. That's the best service we can do to the reader here. Knepflerle (talk) 21:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge?

The first hit on Scurinae's list for Dobrin says "also called the Knights of Dobrin", and the book (by Hunyadi) actually calls them Milites Christi de Prussia This brief body was merged into the Teutonic Knights; if we do not not call them Knights of Christ of Prussia, as several of the sources do, we should follow suit. I trust these well-established editors will prefer this to scoring ethnic bragging points. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

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The Knights of Christ of Prussia

• Knights of Dobrin google book search result: 587 books
• Knights of Dobrzyn google book search result: 473 books

Since Christian of Prussia, the first bishop of Prussia installed the Knights of Dobrin and Dobrin was given to them as their property, the historical name is of course Knights of Dobrin or Brothers of Dobrin. They were specifically the Milites Christi de Prussia That the town later fell to Kujavia, or Masovia or to Poland and named Polish: Dobrzyn is another later matter. Wikipedia article name should be Brothers or Knights of Dobrin or Knights of Christ of Prussia. An Observer (71.137.196.30 (talk) 04:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC))

Dobrzyn

The article mixes/links two different places named Dobrzyn/Dobrin. Only one of them is relevant for the order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Storchenbraten (talk • contribs) 11:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)