Talk:Order of the Two Niles

Things to consider

long…Cat Wikidata, and FSD discussing FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

[1] FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 08:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Egypt has the Order of the Nile and Sudan has the Order of the Two Niles, White and Blue? Source: http://www.omsa.org/files/jomsa_arch/Splits/1967/276210_JOMSA_Vol18_1_01.pdf
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Rosa Smester Marrero

Created by FuzzyMagma (talk). Self-nominated at 10:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Order of the Two Niles; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Definitely new enough (13 Mar) and long enough in prose. It also adheres to policy and proper formatting, with many references (several are foreign-language). The hook is under 200 characters and is interesting. I might suggest (White and Blue) in parentheses instead of following a comma, but it's fine this way too. Nominator completed a QPQ. Best. --Local hero ^talk 16:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

(removed the stop) @FuzzyMagma and Local hero: Possible This might make a good quirky hook.^(?). However, the hook is not in the article. Nothing about Order of the Nile, or Egypt. See D2 Bruxton (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: saying the last part (... that Sudan has the Order of the Two Niles, White and Blue?) alone is not catchy enough. ALT1 (in the same vein): ... that Zewail received the Order of the Nile and the Order of the Two Niles, White and Blue?, it may work but I don’t think it’s interesting enough .. would the quirkiness suffice? FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Propose them in a format ideally with a source, but the first thing is make sure whatever hook you propose is in the article with a citation following it.

Bruxton (talk) 13:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

• ALT1: ... that Zewail received the Order of the Nile and the Order of the Two Niles, White and Blue?, ref [2]
• ALT2: ... that Sudan has the Order of the Two Niles, White and Blue?, ref [3]

FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

So the reason "Order of the Nile" cannot be used in any hook, is that our article says nothing about "Order of the Nile". ALT2 would work. What does @Local hero: think? Bruxton (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I do agree that the original hook is the most interesting, but if it cannot be used since the "Order of the Nile" cannot be included in this article, then I prefer ALT2 as well. --Local hero ^talk 17:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Local hero: @Bruxton: ALT2 is meh! .. I still want to go with the 1st version if possible. I have now included it in the article. FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma: Please read DYKCRIT#3b. You have the Order of the Nile as a see also. Every part of the hook must be cited per 3b. Bruxton (talk) 21:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton: I don’t think DYKCRIT#3b applies as the Order of the Nile is referenced and contains the information. The Order of the Nile is not linked intentionally so to no divert attention from the Order of the Two Niles. The hook meant to attract attention, to “hook” and having a knowledge about the region and link them together to deliver an interesting message should not be deterred. I do not agree with you, the hook should be as it as it’s factual .. thanks FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma: I am probably not being clear enough. If you want to refer to Order of the Nile in the hook. It has to be cited in our article (not linked in the hook) per 3b: Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact. Citations at the end of the paragraph are not sufficient. This rule applies even when a citation would not be required for the purposes of the article. Order of the Nile is not in our article, therefor the hook mentioning Order of the Nile cannot be used. Bruxton (talk) 23:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton:Not "being mentioned" (i.e., Order of the Nile is not in our article) and "being factual" (i.e., 3b) are two different things. 3b refers to the latter, which is a fact that can be checked and is well-referenced in its article.

I do not think 3b is the issue; I think you are confusing the two separate problems and stretching 3b beyond its remit to make it sound like it is a fact/policy or something where it is not; it is an opinion that can be discussed, challenged, or even dismissed. FuzzyMagma (talk)

@Cielquiparle: can you help with the explanation? I must not be clear in my description of the issue. Bruxton (talk) 18:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

It is true that the DYK hook should not contain any information that is not in the article, according to DYK policy. At the moment, the Egyptian Order of the Nile is not mentioned anywhere in the article, except in the hatnote...! Ideally, if the goal is to move forward with ALT0, I would recommend simply adding a mention of the Egyptian Order of the Nile somewhere in the article body (with an appropriate citation). If for some reason this isn't possible, we could raise this issue at the DYK Talk page and try to establish consensus among a broader group of DYK reviewers, promoters, and admins – perhaps an exception could be made based on the hatnote??? Cielquiparle (talk) 12:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Cielquiparle: what you just mentioned is 3a and not 3b as Bruxton tried to frame it. Anyway, I added the line to the article. I hope it’s appropriate FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:03, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Cielquiparle. I definitely meant 3b and not 3a. But we are on track now so I removed the stop. Bruxton (talk) 00:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma: (In case this is helpful... Please feel free to ignore.) I thought "Contrary to" didn't sound quite right, so I suggested some other wording, but there may be better. I actually did try to look for sources mentioning both awards – maybe there's a book with honours from around the world in it (?) – but I see that the Internet Archive is down at the moment due to an electricity failure in California. The only other thing I could think of was trying to mention the very few people in the world who have received both the Order of the Nile and the Order of the Two Niles, like Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan (per quick Google search that would require additional verification). Cielquiparle (talk) 00:54, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Cielquiparle: Order of the Nile is Egypt highest honour and order of the two niles is Sudan’s 2nd highest honour; hence, I used “contrary” but I see you rephrased. Anyway, I like the your idea about finding someone who won both. Ahmed Zewail won both. I added that and removed the mention at beginning as “not to be confused” is what the see also tag is for FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)