Talk:Ordu/Archive 1

Archive 1

Claims

Whoever is adding baseless and irrelavant claims on the Ordu page, should at least cite valid sources and or evidence to support their allegations. --Oguz1 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Here you go: [1] Khoikhoi 23:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

How is that considered even a remotely a valid source? It's an interview with someone probably like you, and NOWHERE in the article does it say ANYTHING to support your claims about Ordu, only that the woman says she was born there. You really are streching the truth, you need to be honest. REMOVE that part ASAP. I see all of your contributions are anti-Turkish. WHO DO YOU WORK FOR, the Armenian government or the Armenian lobby? --Oguz1 15:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Take it easy Oguz.. :) Baristarim 15:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I require Evidence (law) from Khoikhoi regarding his claims about Ordu, otherwise he needs to remove that "claim". --Oguz1 15:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.. I don't know.. Generally BBC is a pretty good source. Of course that source talks about some Armenian presence in Ordu, not about the events itself. I will try to look into this more when I will have some more time, unfortunately I have to go out in a moment. Nevertheless, still try to be careful with civility, Khoikhoi is not an "Armenian agent", nor is he Turkish, nor Greek etc :) Cheers! Baristarim 15:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe my latest contrib proves my point.--Oguz1 20:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• That image is not reliable anyone can type that up in Paint in seconds when you get real references than put them. Nareklm 20:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You say he's not an agent but Khoikhoi sure "talks" a lot on Armenian users pages, makes lots of mods and reverts for pro-Armenian articles, has a habit of blocking and reporting people who are making edits that do not fit their POV, and wherever he is posting - all the other Armenians follow. He himself says he doesn't wan't to loose his sysop priv for making to many reverts (on nareklm talk page). It's obvious they are working together to spread disinformation. All you have to do is follow their trail and it is clear as that are all working together. Who do I goto for repoting these guys?

It is not fabricated and what do you base that serious allegation on? I have provided the date, publication, and page number. You, or anyone else, can verify it's authenticity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC).

Image is from newspaperarchives.com, a commercial site and the content is under Fair Use Copyright - which an exerpt for educational purposes is acceptable use according to www.loc.gov/copyright . It is up to you to sign up and verify as I do not want to post the entire page as it may violate copyright. I wil be more than glad to email it to you or post it somewhere else where you can take a look at it without violating any copyrights. --Oguz1 20:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi people

Let's cite our sources when editing. I am from Ordu and I will be watching this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 18:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Oguz1 (talk · contribs) has been blocked for 24 hours for a 3RR violation. Finduk (talk · contribs) has been blocked indefinitely, as it appears he/she is a sockpuppet of Oguz1, and the page has now been fully protected. Nishkid64 21:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Why are edits posted by an anonymous editor and with no verification, still on here? What's going on? Is this how things are done Wiki now? --Oguz1 12:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's how things have always been done here. --68.78.27.212 14:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Protection status

Guys, let's take away the "protected" tag. I would like to contribute to this article, especially with some nice pictures I took, that give a better idea about how Ordu feels like.

Regarding the sentence about the change of demographics due to the "Armenian genocide", which I guess started an irrelevant fight here that led to the "protected" status of this article:

Ordu is not the only city in Turkey. Whoever put that sentence in there, if you think such a sentence is absolutely relevant, please consider all the other articles about the other cities in Turkey also (e.g Istanbul), that do not mention anything alike. There is nothing special about Ordu in that sense. So please take it away, and let's focus on the relevant details of the city/province. Otherwise, there will be a huge waste of time due to further discussions/fights. Gustabon (01:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

The article on BBC, supposedly validating the "genocide" claim, does not say there was genocide in Ordu? On the contrary the woman interviewed in the article even says people in Ordu rescued displaced Armenian children - which disproves the original (and anonynmous) authors claims. Did anyone EVEN read the article? I would like this article to be locked from edits by ALL that have reverted the anonymous authors "genocide" edit. As mentioned by Gustabon, it is irrelevant and a waste of time. --Oguz1 19:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ordu word meaning

Ordu = tent (turk-/mongol-tribes) -> horde -> ordi (kurd) -> ordu (turk) -> urdu (tatar).. @ urmak (tatar)... vurmak (turk) @ vurdu (turk) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.61.49.203 (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Banning Armenian Vandals

I have been fighting about a half a dozen of the same Armenian "editors" - who some have Armenian Revolutionary flags posted on their personal WP pages - about the genocide claim made on this page. First of all, the history of this article shows that the "genocide" claim was posted by an ANONYMOUS editor without any sources, which should make it non-credible in the first place. Thereafter, the claim was linked to a BBC article that is an only interview with a contemporary person from Ordu, who says there was "genocide" but does not say it was in Ordu. Furthermore, she says in the article that was saved by the people of Ordu who put themselves at risk at doing so. The article also puts the word genocide in quotes - meaning it is NOT endorsed by the BBC - and also gives the Turkish refusal of it. Not only is this clause not verified but it is disproved by the very article it's suppose to be saved by. To this date, I do not understand why no WP Admin has not removed this clause and banned those people making the claim from this page. I ask from an Admin that the follwing users banned from editing this article as I believe they are sockpuppets or at the very least none of them have contributed anything other then the same thing over and over again to this article -without any verification and anonymously at that. These users have also engaged in similar behaviour throughout WP on other articles related to Turkey. These users are: Khoikhoi, Artaxiad, and ROOB323. --Oguz1 20:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Khoikhoi vandalised this page again.

Khoikhoi says the source was "Assembly of Turkish American Associations" but the link goes to BBC and Wikipedia. You can not link to a Wikipedia article to support another wikipedia article, especially if the article you are linking to is disputed in the first place. And you can not link to that article. I ask an Admin to ban Khoikhoi from this page, he also vandalizes other Turkish related pages. He is either a bot, becase makes his reverts in less than five minutes, or he is a full-time anti-turkish editor. I ask he be investigated. the original source of the genocide claim was anonymous (see Ordu's history tab) and I believe it was Khoikhoi. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

KHOIKHOI

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did to PageName, you will be blocked.

You have vandilised this page over and over again. The link to BBC is not valid, non acedemic, POV of the person being interviwed in the article, too contemporary, disawowed by the publisher BBC by using quotes around your "claim", not to mention the original poster of that claim is anonymous. It does not support your claim on the contrary it disproves your claim. --Oguz1 20:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Oguz1, you will be blocked if you continue to spam users with false warnings. Read what WP:VANDALISM is before making such accusations. What you are involved in is a content dispute. This is NOT vandalism. Nishkid64 22:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

BBC link

The BBC link that was in the article (I removed it, for now) never really states that Ordu was a site of the Armenian Genocide. It may be a known fact that it was, but the BBC article does not say that. It says the filmmaker went to his hometown of Ordu, but it did not say that his family member was living in Ordu in 1915 or that he was a victim at Ordu. Nishkid64 00:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The source that I just added says that there was an large Armenian population that was eventually tooken away. Artaxiad 00:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Good job, Narek Artaxiad. If anyone is questioning that reference, see [2]. I went to go verify it :-P. Nishkid64 00:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Good job Nareklem? or Artaxiad? whoever...and Niskid, finally removed that BBC link. But the source now is an Armenian author who is obviously biased as he admits to being biased himself and POV http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/burningtigris.htm. It also can not be Corroborated by anyone else, Age of the source and rate of change of the subject is 2003 - it's brand new, Balakian's sources are questionable (Declaration of sources in his own book about the quote itself), it has no Editorial oversight, WP:Reliable_sources. Furthermore, Balakian is controversial and is disputed by http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/burningtigris.htm. --Oguz1 15:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Oguz get over yourself, Balakian is an academic, author, writer etc, he is reliable please do not even mention Tall Armenian tale that is the most bias site of all Turkish websites one can base it in seconds it disputes everything about Armenians. Artaxiad 15:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Balakian is Armenian. That says all that needs to be said about his POV and neutrality. Besides, the quote itself does not even exist in the book. I checked and it's not on page 176 or any other page. Hafiz Mehmed is not even mentioned in the book. It does show up when you do a Google searh on Armenian websites though - I wonder where they got it from. I previously posted a NY times article from 1919 that says Armenians were saved in Ordu - and an Armenian deleted that NPOV source accusing me of making it in Paint Shop. Also, there seems to be lots of Armenian academics around - yet they never cite their sources - or if they do, it's another Armenian book just like you are doing now. I provided tallarmeniantale as an example of how biased your source is, so if you want, let's not use Turkish, Armenian, or WP as sources. Especially if they were written in 2003. --Oguz1 16:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

We provided a source now leave the article alone, tallarmeniantale is not more reliable than any Armenian academic. Artaxiad 16:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

First off, this quote is not in the book. I checked page 176. Where are you getting this from? But, it does exist verbatim on "http://ermeni.org/english/vdadrian_harvard.htm" (google searh for ["hafiz mehmed" + ordu]), who inturn source it as from "Armenian News Network" and who knows where they got it. Even if it did exist somewhere in this book, Balakian's book was published in 2003 and ermeni.org published it first in 2002. So that would mean that your "academic" plagiarized it from the Internet! Try another source or leave the article alone. --Oguz1 16:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Balakian made no reference about Hafiz Mehmed (IIRC; note that I don't have the source with me right now). What you showed is something totally different. Dadrian made a lecture citing Hafiz Mehmed as a source that the genocide occurred in Ordu. Balakian just wrote where it occurred. Nishkid64 18:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, the other book source (where the quote was taken from) uses Mehmed's testimony to the Turkish Parliament. A reputable man says he witnessed the genocide in Ordu. Nishkid64 18:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hafiz Mehmed never says "I witnessed genocide in Ordu". That's your interpretation and it's POV. My POV is he says "an unspecified number of people" were loaded on a boat not to return that night.Which is usually what happens when people get on a boat - they go somewhere else and don't come back that night! Hafiz Mehmed's reputation has not been established either, I don't know where you got from. For all we know, he's an Armenian in the Dashnak party. Stop making ridiculous assumptions on one guy's supposed testimony from a biased Armenian source. --Oguz1 20:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Oguz1, so your trying to convince us that www.tallarmeniantale.com is more rilable source than an academic, author, writer Balakian? ROOB323 00:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No. I never said one is better than the other, they are equally biased - I have never used talltale anywhere in fact. Balakian copied verbatim his information from Dardian who says he got it from Vakit newspaper - whcih I explained many times already - which nobody alive or dead has corroborated. Nobody can verify the Vakit article - this is made up point of and biased. I am not telling you again why you can NOT use Armenian sources. You need to read this page, and pointed everything, if you have a problem with those, then respond. Otherwise, I am warning for the last time, stop vandalising this page. You are also doing "soapbox" advertising the Armenian Political agenda. --Oguz1 13:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop warning him, Nishkid warned you to stop calling this vandalizing since its a dispute or YOU will be blocked. Peter balakian and Tallarmeniantale are not the same, if you deny the Armenian Genocide than obviously you will never agree therefore go do some more research. Artaxiad 13:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop telling me what to and not to do. This isn't your personal playground. I NEVER said tallaarmeniantale and Balakian are the same - I compared them. I SAID Balakian is ARMENIAN therefore he is biased just like tallarmeniantale is TURKISH and biased. I know you understand so give up the innocent act. I reported you as well.--Oguz1 14:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as the Nishkid warning, he already removed the BBC link that I said was vandalism - that has been settled and I was right on that issue. Recently, he and I were debating this new Balakian issue untill you came along and vandalised the page. The article policies are - as stated up top - "No original research" (Dardian is the only person on Earth to make that claim about Ordu - Balakian and JMW just quote him, that equals one of a kind original research and uncorrobrated). "Neutral point of view" (Balakian, Dardian are Armenian, JMW directly quotes Balakian), Verifiability (pg 176 of Burning Tigris does contain that quote, I checked. Hafiz Mehmed does not exist anywhere in history with connections to Ordu, I checked that, too.) You and others broke every rule over and over again. If you give me a source that fit the requirements of the article, then I will consider them. The truth is undeniable, everything else is a different matter. --Oguz1 16:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Population

This section needs to removed permanently: "Although the city's population is mostly Turkish following the Armenian Genocide..."

This implies that the city was mostly Armenian before an Armenian "Genocide" occured in Ordu.

However:

1. An Armenian majority - ever - in Ordu has never been established or cited in any source.

2. A past or present Armenian "percentage" in Ordu has never been established or cited in any source.

3. There's no census figures from circa WW1 or before of Ordu at all.

4. The term "genocide occured in Ordu" has not been cited in any source offered so far - not even by Armenian sources - not explicitly nor even implicitly.

"Genocide in Ordu" is an implied interpretation of history by some WP editors, based upon POV sources written by Armenians which are not corroborated by anyone else but Armenians.

Furthermore, this is a "city" page. The supposed Armenian "genocide" claims belong on the Armenian Genocide page.

It should be deleted permanently. --Oguz1 20:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Jay Murray Winter as a source

This book is a compilation of books written by Dardian, Balakian, and others. JMW has not offered any original research on the subject all he did was copy things from others ad added his opinion. If you look at the "Contributors" page in the book, he clearly states he got his information from Balakian, Dardian, Moradian, Hovanissian, Adalian, and etc. Each chapter is has the individual Armenian contributors name under the chapter title. You are recycling the same biased "information" over and over again. And that is exactly what you are trying to do now for Wikipedia and that is why I am telling you, you cannot do that. It is morally, ethically, and just plain WRONG. --Oguz1 20:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

ROOB323 edited without reason = vandalism

ROOB323 reverted without reason and no edit comments. The reasons are explained in detail below why that source is no good. The next occurrence will be reported as "Sneaky Vandalism". I am reverting his edit because it is vandalism. I am absolutely fed up with this kind of juvenile behavior. If you have something to prove, then prove it. Don't cite ridiculous Armenian sources that do not even prove any of your points, implicitly or explicitly - then turn around and make an assertion as serious as mass murder. This is unacceptable - by anyone's standards - and it severely degrades the Armenian claim that you were once a victim. In the contrary it proves that you do not hesitate to make callus and immoral assertions and attacks on an entire race of people without any reason whatsoever but your opinion. How do you call yourselves Christians? --Oguz1 23:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Oguz you are deleting referenced sentences which is considered vandalism, so don't call others vandals when your the one that is vandalising. Go ahead report it as a "Sneaky Vandalism". ROOB323 00:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I already reported you. I will continue to report you as such untill you decide to follow the rules as stated for this article, and as defined by WP. --Oguz1 16:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Article controlling

Okay, Oguz1, that is it. You do not own this article, so stop removing material just because you think the Armenian Genocide never occurred. I can tell from your edits how you feel on this issue, and making allegations against other users is absolutely ridiculous and will not be tolerated on Wikipedia. Consider this a warning that you may be blocked for future incivility toward other editors. Nishkid64 17:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

You are trying to say that Ordu was an Armenian city before the Turks killed all the Armenians? Am I correct? And your only source for this is an Armenian poet and J.M. Winters who quotes that Armenian directly. Am I correct on that as well?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts he is a academic and a poet. Artaxiad 20:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

He's an English professor. He is Armenian. It's his first non-poetic book. He wrote it in 2003. He sources other Armenians for the passage you quoted. --Oguz1 00:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please be specific, and if he does can you please show us proof? Artaxiad 00:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Proof that he's sourcing another Armenian? Here you go. These are from Balakian's "Burning Tigris":

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0060558709&id=DrYoyAM3PBYC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=wrctpbUcha&dq=burning+tigris&sig=tyMNsbxNERhXuwtkjBw-f5ufU8g#PPR17,M1

Page XVII: "Vahakn Dadrian, has made available in translation..."

Page 343: "As Vahakn Dadrian has put it,..."

Page 396: "Vahakn Dadrian, “The Armenian Question and the Wartime Fate of the Armenians as Documented by the Officals of the Ottoman Empire's World War I Allies"

Page 398: "Dadrian, History of the Armenian Genocide pg. 120..."

Page 401: "quoted in Dadrian, His-tory of the Armenian Genocide pg. 139."

Page 402: "Dadrian, History of the Armenian Genocide, pg. 139-40"

Page 407: "Vahakn Dadrian, “The Role of Turkish Physicians in the World War I Genocide of Ottoman Armenians,...” "

Page 411: "Vahakn Dadrian, “Genocide as a Problem on National and International Law;..."

Page 412: "Vahakn Dadrian, “The Role of the Special Organisation in the Armenian Genocide during the..."

Page 414: "puts the number at 34000, quoted in Dadrian, “The Role of the Special Organization in the..."

Page 418: "Vahakn Dadrian, “Documentation of..."

Page 420: "see Dadrian, German..."

Page 425: "Vahakn Dadrian, “The Turkish Military Tribunal's Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series,"

Page 431: "see also Dadrian, “Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law..."

Page 434: "Since most of the cup's files and records disappeared after the war, these forty-two documents comprised the major evidence; Dadrian, “Genocide as a Problem..."

Page 435: "Dadrian, “A Textual Analysis of the Key Indictment,”"

Page 442: "collected essays by Vahakn N. Dadrian, in journal of Political and Military Sociology "

Page 458: "Dadrian, Vahakn. “Genocide as a Problem of National and..."

Page 463: "sense of Armenia, 29—33 Dadrian, Vahakn, pg. xvii, pg. 113, pg. 335, pg. 343"

As For JM Winter from "America and the Armenian Genocide of 1915":

Page "CONTENTS": "The Armenian Genocide: an interpretation 52 VAHAKN N. DADRIAN Part H..."

Page 4:" Vahakn Dadrian then provides an interpretation of the genocide as a cluster of crimes"

Page 52: "an interpretation Vahakn N Dadrian Introduction The Armenian Genocide"

Page 53: "Dadrian, “The Historical and Legal ..."

Page 55: "claim of relocation, see Vahakn N. Dadrian, The History of the Ar,,, "

Page 56: "Dadrian, “The Documentation of the World War I..."

Page 59: "Dadrian, “The Convergent Roles of the Stare and a Governmental Party..."

there's much more. The funny part is, they are sourcing from Dadrian's "interpretation". --Oguz1 16:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using Armenian sources (by policy at least - good thing too, in some obscure areas such as this there are no "independent" sources). Say "according to Dadrian" if you must, but don't blank.--Domitius 18:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Okay this is actually better thanks for posting this man, since Peter Balakian is a academic, he quotes major Armenian historians that are more reliable this is better. Artaxiad 19:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure but, you can't use POV Armenian sources when discussing disputed claims made by Armenians. That would make this Armenipedia, not Wikipedia. Why is it so hard to find an non-biased source? Obviously they don't exist. You guys know yourselves this is POV else you would report me to an Admin as a vandal or something, right? --Oguz1 20:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Oguz1, learn what vandalism is. No matter what, this is a content dispute, and you cannot be blocked for that, unless you violate WP:3RR or you are banned for repeated disruption. Nishkid64 20:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Pupulation

The Treaty of Lausanne took place in 1923, but the Armenian population was killed in 1915 during the Armenian Genocide. So there was no Armenians in Ordu after 1915 how can there be a population exchange in 1923 if the Armenian population was killed. In the Treaty of Lausanne the population exchange was between Turkey and Greece not between Turkey and Armenia. Also there is a reference to the sentence, but Oguz you still keep deleting the reference and any mention of the Armenian Genocide and adding POW without having any references. ROOB323 19:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

HOLY CONTRADICTION, MAN!!! Can you please PLEEEEASE show a census or SOMETHING that says the city was mostly Armenian before 1915, I mean PLEEEEEASE!!!. I'm getting tired of you accusing me of not showing sources while I have census right here [3] that says it was mostly Turkish in 1903 (Ordu was part of Trabzon back then). I am really sick of trying to get this point across. I mean, how can it be "mostly Turkish after something happened" when it was mostly Turkish to begin with? Am I missing something here? AND yes, the population exhange involved Greece but Christians (yes including Armenians) chose to goto Greece and at the time there were more Greeks in Ordu then there were Armenians. that is why the lausenne is in there. --Oguz1 17:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly Oguz1, you need to pay attention to what I write because what you wrote above shows that your not paying attention to what I wrote. Where in my sentence did I say that "the city was mostly Armenian before 1915"? I am not saying Armenians were majority in the city, what I am saying is that there were Armenians living in the town, but they all were killed or left the city after the Armenian Genocide. Secondly, the reference that you gave above for the population census, you do realize that it is an article from Wikipedia. You could write in the article that the city was Turkish before and after 1915, but the reference to the Armenian Genocide stays there that is the reason the Armenians don't live in the city. ROOB323 02:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"Today, the city's population is mostly Turkish following (<-- meaning not previously) the Armenian Genocide (supposedly of 1915)". The sentence is a "weasel" worded sentence implying that all the Armenian inhabitants were "killed" (doesn't say left) in 1915 and so consequently it's only now "mostly" Turkish, but so many were killed that before 1915 it was an Armenian city. That's what it says. I dont care who reads it but that's what that sentence is saying and you know it. If you want to say something else like they left, that's what you would have said. Here are other figures (from Armenian websites and by the way, Wiki census is still good), [4], [5]. 36 Armenians that were relocated from Ordu can only mean that there really weren't that many Armenians there to begin with. If you look at Sivas, it says 136000. Now, that number compared to 36 is a sign of something, which - along with the census - is that you have nothing. All you have is, that one source (by an Armenian) that says some unknown number of Armenians were killed there, it doesnt even say if they lived there, maybe they were brought there from somewhere else. It does not say how many, what the circumstances were, or anything else. So, you - nor anyone else - can NOT reach any conclusion regarding the population, based on that source, and stick into an Encyclopedia - that's just plain stupid. Here's what you can say: "Before World War I casualties, there were some Armenians living in Ordu, and today there's still a small number still living there." That's pretty much it. --Oguz1 13:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The sentence that mentions about the Armenian church in Ordu should stay there. I don't see any reason why it should be deleted from the article. Oguz1 you said the church does not belong in the population section and then deleted it. Why don't you creat a section and add the deleted content back in. It seems that you keep on deleting every sentence in the article that mentions the Armenian Genocide or any thing about the presence of Armenian culture in the city which was the sentence that you deleted which mentions about the Armenian church. Turks did constitute majority in the city, but there were Armenians in Ordu, but in 1915 they were killed in a massive drowning operations in the Black Sea [6]. Also in this website [7] Turkish deputy of Trabzon province, Hafiz Mehmet confirms it that Armenians in Ordu were drowned. Furthermore, tt the 15th sitting of the Trabzon trial series 1919, Turkish Ordu merchant Hüseyin, appearing as a witness, confirmed this very operation of drowning. In its Verdict, the Tribunal with emphasis referred to these operations of mass drownings. See the link I provided. ROOB323 18:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved the sentence about the Armenian church to a new section called buildings and structures. Since the infromation about the church was in the population section. Also I added infromation about the Byzantine church that is also located in the city. ROOB323 03:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Of couse I keep deleting "genocide" references. There's no such word used in any of your sources - and there are no numbers given either to reach that conclusion. You say it was a massive drowning operation but the witnesses themselves do not specify any numbers. Can you tell me where you got the "massive" part from? And how can it be massive when 36 Armenians were relocated and the census from those times say barely any Armenians were in Ordu. You keep ignoring these facts and injecting some obsucre passge and reaching invalid conclusions. I also previously provided a 1922 news article that says Ordu provided refuge to Armenians - but someone keeps deleting that. Please read it[8]. I can upload the whole page (in case you think I made it in Paint like some guy accused me of doing). What I was saying about Armenians going to Greece is also in this article. According to this, the armenian population of Ordu is POST World War I. And people sit there and accuse Ordu of genocide (becasue a single quote from a single book) when it was the opposite. I would do so much more research before even thinking about making allegations like that. --Oguz1 14:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the links you provided above are interviews with an Armenian of today - and an Armenian blog, that reference to your JWM and Dadrian reference. TNobosy has ever corroborated that - it's turning into a giant rumor and now you are trying to spread it some more on Wiki. You should refrain from those types of sources because I can also provide Turkish blogs and interviews that make ridiculous claims - but I do not. Have some self respect and give me credible sources that say what the sentence you put in there says. --Oguz1 14:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Oguz1 I don't see any point with arguing with you. You keep on insisting your POW and every source I provide you keep saying it is from an Armenian source. I am telling you again go read the sources I provided and you will see from where I got the word "massive" and who supports this claim. ROOB323 19:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this version is too POV and complex. Let's just keep in simple. We don't need to go into detail about the author of the book, etc. Khoikhoi 19:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not? if it is only one author.. This story has always seemed to me bizarre, there never was such a huge Armenian presence in Ordu. In any case, I explained this many times: the way this version is phrased makes it sound like the whole city was Armenian, and then it became overwhelmingly Turkish - that is also OR and POV. Seriously, the version you are reverting to really makes it sound like as if the whole city was burned down and was later colonized by Turks. I am sorry but, just because the authors are Turkish, if this article is getting questions, then it is legitimate to be mentioning the reference supporting that claim in this article. Listen, what is at question is specifically this city: I am telling you, this whole story doesn't sit right, there never was a big Armenian presence in this city - Greek, yes, not Armenian. Just bizarre, that's all I am saying + the problems with the wording of that version I just mentioned.. Baristarim 19:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is still not understood what the issue is: it is about this city, not a general discussion about Armenians. There is only one source that talks specifically about this city, and the other version explains it - what is the problem? Baristarim 19:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see your point that the current version implies that the city use to be mostly Armenian, which I'm not sure is correct or not. Perhaps it could be rephrased somehow. However, I still think it's unecessary to go into detail about the author of the book, now that other sources have been added. Khoikhoi 03:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The new "other sources" that are mentioned here [9] are not new or "other sources", they are the same thing. The last three are not even a valid sources (a blog, an interview, and the last taken out of context) . Please read them carefully or see below.

• Source 4 is a book compilation which contains - verbatim - a passage from a Dardian book. It is indeed just a compilation of books, each chapter being from a different author. (I discussed this extensively already)

• Source 6 is a magazine interview with Dardian, who says the same thing which was already quoted in Source 4, verbatim.

• Source 7, is a blog (armenianaffaris.blogspot.com) that also includes the same passage from Dadrian, verbatim, which was already used as a source. This is not a valid source.

• Source 6 [10], is about Giresun, not Ordu, this is completely out of context. The author only mentions Ordu as a geographical reference to Giresun, and I quote, "... and Gherasun was clean of them (Armenians)" (page 280): Here's the quote: "We went to Trrebizond...and before Trebizond sits, Treblus; and before Treblus, Gherasun; and before Gherasun, Ordu;..." (page 280, same paragraph but not the same sentence)

I trust you will correct these errors. If you are in doubt of my research, you can read them yourself and compare. --Oguz1 17:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that there was a substantial Armenian population of Ordu before the Armenian Genocide? If so, where are the sources? I do not see the sources cited (which are not all quite what you'd call neutral) make such a claim. If not, why is it mentioned here? Traditionally, Pontic Greeks lived here.  --Lambiam 18:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

It appears that Hyumrukcal (talk · contribs) simply replaced the sourced information without any edit summary or explanation on the talk page. The info that he added was entirely unsourced. Doesn't look like a consensus to me. Khoikhoi 00:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hyumrukcal's changes, so did Istanbuljohn. That makes consensus. The sources you provided are a blog (can't use blogs), and the other 3 are copies of each other (one being an interview with the author of the other 2). Not to mention they do not say "Ordu was overwhelmingly Armenian" anywhere. You still haven't shown the logic behind "Ordu is overwhelmingly Armenian" where do you get that? Show us where this occurs so that we can put this issue to rest. Also show where it says, "genocide occurred in Ordu". --Oguz1 14:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

please see modified version that will put a stop to all this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hetoum_I/Sandbox2#History- there is a wealth of sources on the murder of Armenians here. Also, the church is indeed a landmark of the city and to this day serves as a cultural center. Oguz is clearly a vandalous individual.Hetoum I 05:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I don't know which of the claims in your version of the article are true or not, but I see that several contentious ones are unsourced, while the neutrality of several other sources is clearly questionable.  --Lambiam 17:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it's too late, but I want to underline to Oguz that the Greco-Turkish Population Exchange was mandatory: It means that neither the Ordu Greeks CHOSE to leave their hometown, nor any other greek community in Asia Minor, nor the Turkish and Muslim populations in Greek Mainland. They all acted following orders and almost none stayed in the ancestor lands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.105.85.4 (talk) 09:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)