Talk:Organization of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Misleading Title

This "article" title does not make it clear that it relates specifically to the WWII era. The article is misreferenced in other pages. Links from modern Luftwaffe page link to this erroneously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.129.174 (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the article to "Organization of the Luftwaffe during World War II". GMan552 (talk) 11:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Flak units

I understand these come under the Luftflotte, but there's no sign of them in the organisation chart. GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The Org chart, is a replacement of a older . This in turn is a replacement of . Similar to Fallschirmjäger, Luftwaffe Flak Korps do have their own article. Hence the focus and intention of this article is to explain the strategic and Operational organization of Luftwaffe core units, the flying corps. As you can see, there are mentions of both in this article. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 01:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking originally more about the units involved in the defence of the Reich, carrying out similar job to the British AA Command. GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid, I am being dense. Are you suggesting that the flak units in Defence of the Reich should be incorporated in this article ? There is a section on Luftwaffe Ground Forces. However I haven't gotten there as yet. Still chugging through the OKW and OKL along with complexities of Day fighters. There is a lot yet to be covered.

P.S. I do appreciate the Copy-Edit you did. Thanks a lot. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 18:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Finger Four Formation

Since this article is focusing on the Organization and Changes thereof, I feel that there is no relevance for the section on Finger Four Formation Strategy here. I'd like to know what the community thinks about consolidating it with the Finger-four article and removing from here. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this is about the organization, not fighter tactics.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

It might be relevant to know how how developments in tactics were promulgated through the Luftwaffe. Up through the layers of command and down again?GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps. But its more of a Military Doctrine. So it may make sense to put it in History of Luftwaffe or even merge with the parent article as well. Removing from here either way. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 23:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Nine direcorates?

You say there are nine directorates, but only eight are listed. Diannaa ^TALK 05:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

You say there are sixteen inspectorates, but seventeen are listed. Diannaa ^TALK 14:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The Inspectorates were numbered consecutively, but there was no Inspectorate number 4. Also the Inspectorate 8 was disbanded presumably after aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was shelved. Guess the author made total 16 there. This information predominantly came out of two books. One is by U.S. War Department, (1995). The other is Boog, Horst; Gerhard Krebs, Detlef Vogel (2006). The List of directorates is provided in one of those books and the number 9 is from the other one. My guess is there's some directorate of lesser importance is missing. Can't add one without a book to cite it. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 21:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit - 250410

I have spent the last five days copyediting this article, I hope I haven't stood on anyone's toes; its a bit of a monster, so aplogies in advance if I have taken something out which I shouldn't have.
In the first picture, the parade, I have deleted "formations" as I thought the word gave the impression that the Luftwaffe was formed in 1939 and that is clearly not the case. The word also appears in the second picture caption which seemed a bit like over-kill. I've changed the second caption from "two years later" (which would make it 1939), to "1937" as per the 'description'. Also, looking more closely at the pic, I would say that the Luftwaffe would probably not use bi-planes in a fly-past at any time during WW II !
As far as 'Directorates' and 'Inspectorates' are concerned, (see above), I have been bold, counted them and changed the appropiate totals. All the other edits have been made with the MoS in mind.
RASAM (talk) 20:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

First off, thanks for the Copy Ed. I agree with pretty much most of the changes you have made (did history diff). I noticed that you brought back the Finger-Four formation. As you can see above, it was agreed to remove that section altogether. So appreciate your thoughts around bringing it back. Makes me wonder you didn't do wholesale copy of the article to your own sandbox and rather did your edits in place. Also that V formation looked like Stuka Bombers to me. Remembering that Luftwaffe leadership gave more importance to offensive rather than defensive force at that time. Incidentally I also toyed with an idea of a collage of four images with the other two being those from 1944-45 when Luftwaffe was no longer a fighting force as such. But Formatting broke it up.'  Perseus 71 ^talk 01:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Additional Facts

• Why is the information included on the finger-four formation? That has nothing to do with organizational history. You are too generic on the structure of the Staffel, Gruppe and Geschwader, IMO. You don't mention the 1944 change in the Jagdstaffeln from 12 to 16 aircraft, or the reorganization from 3 staffeln to 4 for the Jagdgruppen at the same time, which increased their stregth from 40 to 64 aircraft. I would suggest that the four staffeln organization of the KG z.b.V./TG and SchG from their formation be mentioned as well.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• Finger four merged with parent article. Can you please elaborate on why you feel its too generic ? I am trying to be clinical with an emphasis on avoiding Luftwaffe history. I think I have touched upon higher strength of Jagdgruppen and Jagdstaffeln may be not explicitly. I wasn't aware about the fact on KG z. b. V. will definitely lookup some primary references to cite.'  Perseus 71 ^talk 03:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think that general readers are going to want to know the general strengths/structure of units at various time. Forex, Jagd-, Kampf-, and Stukastaffeln were about 40 aircraft each (3 Staffeln of 12 aircraft each, plus 2-5 aircraft Stab) at the beginning of the war. In contrast the KGr z.b.V. was 53 Ju 52 (4 Staffeln of 12 each, plus 5 aircraft Stab). Most of these stayed the same for the duration although fighters reorganized into 4 staffeln of 16 aircraft each in 1944-45. Then new types of Gruppen were organized during the war with different organizations like SchG 1 and 2, etc. You don't want to get too bogged down in the details, but this stuff is important, I think, to a general reader.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

All good points. I will need to look for good books to cite. Being on road, makes you rely overly on google books. '  Perseus 71 ^talk 01:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

That photograph and the Finger-four formation

Perseus 71, "Also that V formation looked like Stuka Bombers to me" is a quote from your entry above. I assume you are talking about the photo at the beginning of the article. I'm no expert on WW II aircraft recognition, but I would say that they are definitely not Junkers Ju 87 Stukas; more likely some sort of Heinkel or possibly Föcke-Wulf. If you click on the picture, you can clearly see that they are bi-planes, which the Stuka was not.

Likewise, further down the picture page, it gives a year - 1937. The 'original historic description' - Deutsche Luftwaffe ist in fünf Jahren aufgebaut worden (The German Air Force has been built in five years). I would suggest that for consecutive reasons, (i.e. 1937 - 1939, not 1939 - 1937), the two pictures' location is swapped round. What do other editors think?

As far as the 'Finger-four' (F4) section is concerned, I would say it only needs to briefly mention what the F4 is; after all, it already has its own article. m
RASAM (talk) 16:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The aircraft appearing in 'V' formation in the lead image appear to be Heinkel He 51's.

Article quality

Excellent. scope_creep (talk) 11:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC)