Talk:Oriel College, Oxford/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Oriel College, Oxford. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Floreat Oriel!

Floreat Oriel! Mysteronald 12:47, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Floreat Oriel! Alf 00:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Grace

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Added grace translation - sourced from the chapel term card.Alf 00:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If anyone has that graces of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges book, I'm be gratefull of definitive reference, else I'll have to do the unmentionable in Blackwells :) --Alf ^melmac 19:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the chapel term card is the definitive reference, seeing as it's what's used night after night in Hall. But seeing it in print is appealing too. -- (James McNally) (talkpage) 22:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure there is a copy in the College library - in fact i've seen a copy, though i'm not sure exactly where it was....! 86.139.83.135 08:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the grace should say "a iuventute nostra" not "an" - that is what is lodged in my memory anywhere and it makes more sense. I will change it, but please change it back if I am wrong!Nhojjohn 13:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

College templates

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have created a series of templates for former students of Oxford's various colleges. There are still plenty to do, but if you want to add one of the templates to your user page then feel free. See Wikipedia:Userboxes/Education/United Kingdom/University of Oxford for complete list. Please contact me if you would like another college fast-tracked... File:Anglo-indian.jpg Deano 18:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Cecil

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

The Yahoo travel guide for Oxford reckon that the statue of Cecil "is the only one in Oxford of a man in civilian as opposed to clerical or military dress". Anyone able to ref that better than Yahoo? --Alf ^melmac 18:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If Lazarus counts as a man, then the New College Epstein gives it the lie. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Mel, I for one would count Lazarus as a man, good ol' reliable Yahoo, always does me good to start the day with a chuckle. --Alf ^melmac 06:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't be placing any money on betting that the Queen's' philosphers aren't considered to be in civvies either. --Alf ^melmac 19:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Rowing picture

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Feel free to edit style &c Tricky 15:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Μελ kindly did this. --Alf ^melmac 19:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Film and fiction

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion

There's enough of Oriel used as location on film to be worth mentioning, imdb has two - Inspector Morse (which is also fully listed in the guide book of Inspector Morse, if anyone has copy) and Framed, there's the recent Lewis, and used as a backdrop for some of Michael Woods's Gilbert White: Nature Man. What to do about it eh? --Alf ^melmac 00:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Rannie mentions (in the Athletics section, p235) the 1842 Head of the River race with Oriel bumping Trinity to win the headship and it being used in Tom Brown at Oxford - but "St Ambrose" is Oriel and "Oriel" is Trinity... --Alf ^melmac 14:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Section started. I got hold of The Oxford of Inspector Morse which helps greatly as it references four other films the college was used as a location for. I still don't have Tom Brown at Oxford, hopefully someone will and add to that. --Alf ^melmac 13:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Oriel College, Oxford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oriel College.

Last edited at 01:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 15:30, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The article as viewed by one who does not know what an Oxford college is

Latest comment: 17 years ago25 comments4 people in discussion

I am amazed that an article of this quality managed to become a featured article. The most shocking of all things is that the article on a college lacks any mention of academics. How can an article on academic institute claim comprehensiveness without dealing with academics? There is a mega-sized section on Buildings and environs, which ideally should be a third of the current size. The name of the section itself is lousy. The Coat of arms section is pure cruft, and does not help in encyclopedic understanding of the college. The Grace section is also a disgrace, which is totally useless for an encyclopedic article. The People associated with the College section is stubby. The Silver Plate section deserves a maximum of one paragraph in history, and doesn't even deserve to be a sub-section. The Film and fiction title is also very lousy. Just because the article is completely referenced doesn't mean it is comprehensive, and just because reference for something is available doesn't mean those can be included. Seeing the FAC of the article, I see that there were many outstanding objections when the article was passed. Till now I haven't even gone into the quality of prose, to which there were most objections. Are there any editors willing to look into these issues? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note: I don't actually see any outstanding objections from the FAC discussion. They were all dealt with on a point-by-point basis – long before the discussion closed and the article was promoted. Are you also commenting on problems with the FAC process? (which everyone is free to contribute to) Or the neutrality of the decision made? Sorry, it is unclear. Also, I'm sure the issues you raise will be looked into, and, this being a Wiki and all, be acted on if appropriate. Bubba hotep 11:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I quote two people from the FAC discussion. Tony said: "You're right; I was a little harsh in that comment, but stand by my view that the prose isn't good enough." Sandy said: "Fixing Tony's *examples* isn't enough to correct the prose.". I think this qualifies as outstanding issue. I am not sure why you linked WP:SOFIXIT. I haven't heard of this college before. Do you expect me to write on its academics. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The article has had three copy edits by users previously uninvolved, all individual items were dealt with, the objections about prose are by a user who advocates Michael Halliday’s systemic functional grammar, as embodied in MAK Halliday, Introduction to functional grammar, 2nd ed, Arnold, London, 1995; traditional grammar sucks. Academics are mentioned as they crop up in history and in the section, which may appear stubby because it is a summary of another page. Can you tell me anything fact about Oriel College that is verifiable and missing from the article?--Alf ^melmac 11:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict>I was linking SOFIXIT as a pointer that editors in general will (if they see fit) change things (as they see fit). As nobody has done that yet, maybe there are no real problems – including the prose, which Tony and Sandy did not revisit when the article was complete (it underwent a copyedit afterwards as well). I am in no way trying to prevent you from having an opinion on this article, but you have come on a bit strong and then virtually demanded that other people work on it to make it better. You have also made comments about the FAC process which surely would be better placed at a talk page in that area? Bubba hotep 11:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't yet reviewed the quality of the prose, so there is no point in discussing it any further. I can ask a counter-question: Can you list sentences relating to academics that appear on the article. As mentioned before, I haven't heard of the college before, so citing examples is beyond me. But I think it is natural for any college to have departments, centres, and teaching programs. I don't see even a single mention of these. Do you expect me to believe there the article is comprehensive without even mentioning academics. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have left a note at WikiProject Universities so that editors not personally involved with this article express their views on the issues raised. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments were based on the fact that you were attacking the quality of the article. If you are now saying you haven't even looked into it, after saying there were outstanding issues at the FAC discussion, I'm sorry, it doesn't make clear sense. Your attempts to now limit your reactions to comprehensive content now appear to me as backtracking. Bubba hotep 11:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have never back-tracked any statement. Read my first comment carefully. I categorically said that I haven't gone through the quality of the prose, and I repeatedly said the same thing. Why don't you deal with the issues raised by me. Also, I am not saying that FAC is broken. The very nature of the process means that slip-ups can happen. However, I was expressing my surprise that such a big slip-up chanced to happen. My surprise isn't my objection. Yes, I am attacking the quality of the article (for the reasons mentioned above), but I have not attacked the quality of the "prose". There is a difference. Please don't confuse the two. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Then please don't attribute problems of comprehensive content to me either. I have commented on your saying there are outstanding problems from the FAC, when there are (in the absence of comments to the contrary) none. You could only say they were outstanding if you had read through and checked the problems both Tony and Sandy perceived still existed. Also, at this point, I will say that I was a copy editor who took part in improving this article voluntarily, but have had virtually no content input into it, so if you are now dismissing my views because you see me as somehow "involved" in the article, I'm sorry that is another misconception you need to address. As can be seen below, Alf is the one who can address the content issue – I was just dealing with the tone and inconsistent approach of the complaint. Bubba hotep 12:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oriel is just one of over thirty (maybe forty by now) colleges that form the collegiate aspect of Oxford University, the university itself has departments, not indiviudal colleges, likewise with the teaching programmes - the same as for specialist (and some would therefore say not proper Oxford University) colleges, but as that is not clear, I'll look to see how that can be mentioned. The academics are on List of Oriel College people, the summary names both the indivual and the fellowship attached to college in the section, any further depth causes verification problems, and broken into former and current, provosts and honorary fellows. Those that can be are - John Keble and John Henry Newman are mentioned in the lead. Provosts John Eveleigh who has not been considered notable enough for an article and he was a provost, and Edward Copleston are mentioned in the Modern section, as are Richard Whately and Thomas Arnold, and without being insulting they far outshadow any current academic.--Alf ^melmac 12:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

By academics I meant education, not academic-related people. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Then the answer is even simpler - see Oxford University - the education you might receive at Oriel is the same as at ChristChurch, Balliol, Corpus Christi etc. Maybe there is a confusion in your mind as to what an Oxford College is, it is not the same as a college outside of England - as far as I can gather a college outside the big universities of Europe is more like a university in itself. Also I note that you have messaged the University Project, I've seen no active participation by them on this article excepting for adding their tag at the top of this page - this is a college not a univeristy - I believe a better place would be Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Oxford.--Alf ^melmac 12:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Wiki alf, for the constructive reply above. For the facts you mentioned above, the coverage would possibly have to be on different lines, but I still feel that something should be mentioned. I am not sure how can a college not have departments. I mean, aren't the students studying in the college assigned departments specific to their academic discipline. Granted the academic policies are not drafted by the college, but definitely the college would have dedicated faculties of various academic disciplines. Also, for both under-graduate and post-graduate students in the college, I think a discussion on the broad streams to which they belong are necessary for comprehensiveness. From the current article, it isn't even clear if Oriel College is arts, science or engineering college. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

At Oxford Univeristy there are more than three physics departments, a music faculty which stretches across library, practical and museums, mathmatical buildings, in fact there is a whole science area of building where students at this and other colleges go to do various aspects of the work see Category:Departments of the University of Oxford - they are not a subset of any individual college, they are Oxford University property, ChristChurch and Balliol, renowned for "producing" prime minsters, has no politics department - there is the Centre for Political Ideologies, Politics and Intrernational Relations and Sociology Library and general buildings at Manor Road, a student of Politics at Oriel would use those buildings as much as anyone from ChristChurch or Balliol for example.--Alf ^melmac 12:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

In short the same courses can be done at any Oxford college, barring specialism, which as I mentioned above, are sometimes not considered part of the University, so Oriel cannot be defined as an Arts, Science or Engineering college, you could in fact take a number of degrees within those disciplines at Oriel, as you can at most of the tradtional Oxford colleges. There are some exceptions - Green College, Oxford used only to focus on medicine and now does that and "related disciplines". for example.--Alf ^melmac 12:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I am now getting what kind of colleges are there in Oxford. So let me be more precise about what I believe needs to be clarified: What defines Oriel College? Is it just the physical boundary (which means it doesn't share academic facilities like library with any other college)? Is it faculty (If I pick up the name of a professor, do I say he belongs to Oriel College or he belongs to Oxford university)? Is it department (Is Oriel College a sum total of specific academic disciplines)? I believe from your reply above that the third question is ruled out. I asked to confirm that I have not misunderstood what you said. I think if these questions are satisfactorily answered in article prose, then my first objection (relating to academics) stands resolved. But reflecting on what we have discussed, I think if people outside of Europe will have trouble understanding this article, then something is wrong with the article. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oriel College is defined in a number of ways, prinicpally by its foundation which in turns owns a number of buildings, which its staff and students may live/teach/play/drink/etc. in (for example the first quad of Oriel has staircases one through six - in rooms 1.1, 1.2 for the last goodness knows how long you will find the boat club captains and at least two others' accomodation, in 3.3 you will find the chaplain - as you would have done in the days before John Henry Newman, but there is also the lodge, which deals with all incoming general enquries, the Chapel, the Hall with the kitchens and more senior dining rooms linking from it, there is the college bar, the college office where the Provost's secretary works, the academic office which deals with admissions and current academic issues, and some of the Provosts Lodgings, in 6.A the provost's guests are accomodated as is the reigning monarch when he/she chooses (or is required) to attend, as well as about 40-50 other student accomodation rooms). So yes, you're on the right track there. I doesn't share facilities as a college as such but its students do access common Oxford University buildings, like the fairly famous Bodleian Library. Is is not a faculty and if you were to pick a random professor you may find that they are considered to "belong" to more than one place, depending on their personal history and the nature of the professorship, Regius Professors are linked to colleges in an ex-offico manner for example. The same will apply to nearly every single one of the colleges of Oxford, each article would have to re-state what is generally outlined at Oxford University, I'm not sure that is practical, even if wise. The article spent a day on the main page and not a single comment relating to this came up. It is a common question for tourists to ask "where is the University" to which most locals reply (if they are within four or five miles of the centre) "You're already in it, look about!", it takes a lot of patience and time for locals to continually answer the preconception that there is a defined "campus" and "which college is the one to do History in?" type questions are quite frankly practically unanswerable in person on a day to day basis and certainly so in an encylopedia article.--Alf ^melmac 13:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you can incorporate some text from this page. Specifically, Oriel College has academic disciplines in arts and sciences. Also, students belong to different nationalities. Details of the admission process can also be included. The tutors (faculty) are reportedly specific to the college, so the details/statistics of faculty in various disciplines can be included. The facilities available at the college can also be discussed. This page suggests that the college has specialised (and possibly advanced) computing facilities. Details of well-known laboratories in the college can also be included. The academic publication statistics (if any) can also be mentioned. I believe the college would be using facilities from OUP. Have any books by Oriel faculty been published in OUP or elsewhere. If any related information is available, it can be included. If you think repeating information is not wise, provide a link to some article that does. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

From what I have gathered, the college isn't secular in nature. This can be seen in the "Grace" which has references to Jesus Christ as Lord. Are there exceptions for students from other religious backgrounds. If there are exceptions, state them. If there are not, even then this can be mentioned. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

From an Oxford perspective "arts & sciences" means pretty much all subjects and is therefore pretty meaningless, and the same applies to virtually every other college in Oxford University. Students at every college belong to different nationalities, Oriel is not special there, it's student make-up is pretty similar to the other Oxford colleges - there is a higher proportion of non-indiginous students studying as graduates than undergraduates. I have where possible avoided using data from the primary source for the usual reasons. The facilities such as they are, are discussed, in the building sections and in the student life section. There are no labs in Oriel, notable or otherwise. The admission process does not vary from this college to the next - again this would involve the exact same data being needed in evry college article. Tutors being sepcific to college is already mentioned in the article and I'll repeat it again Oriel is a college, not a faculty. The computing facilties despite what the primary source might suggest, are nothing special, better are found at the relevant university department (or faculty). Individual members of Oriel have published various things in the past - the historians Rannie, Pantin and Catto have written works about Oriel and are extensively cited in the article. It might be better to suggest a standard lead section summarising the Oxford Univeristy academic system and admissions procedure to the Oxford Univeristy project as that is not specific to this article. And yes the college is secular, it was religious based when it was founded, as were all oclleges and halls at the time, but is no longer, as is the case with virtually all other colleges, the data about how many gaudies (previously they were religious observances) being taken down in numbers from over twenty to two is actually mentioned in the article. There was never any particular decision about this, like most of the former religious 'houses' of Oxford, they have gradually accepted a more and more secular process, again that is not specific to Oriel.--Alf ^melmac 14:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Your comments about grace are similar to asking that in every single English school article, the fact that assembly was once a time for prayer and singing of hymns has changed to being a secular event - I'm just shaking my head here, I can't see how stuff that is standard amongst a vast amount of places needs to be address in every single article about colleges and schools.--Alf ^melmac 14:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite a discussion that's erupted here! It all seems to stem from a lack of understanding of the nature of a college within the University of Oxford. If I might say so, I think the most appropriate place to ensure this is clearly explained is the Colleges of the University of Oxford page. This is already linked to from the first paragraphs of most if not all the individual college articles (including this one) though maybe some way needs to be found of emphasising these links and raising awareness that the colleges may be unlike those of other institutions the reader is familiar with.

At present I don't think the colleges page (or for that matter the main University of Oxford page) gives sufficient explanation of the roles the colleges play (or don't play) in the academic life of the university. In both articles the details that are given about the nature of the collegiate university focus on undergraduate courses – lectures and tutorials are mentioned, but there's nothing to say where research goes on. Casper Gutman 22:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for replying late. Was busy for the last few days, and even now don't have much time. I will get beck to details of the concerns raised by you later in detail, but prima facie, I still think that related articles need to be linked from it. For example, a link to a page that deals with admission to Oxford colleges needs to be added either in "See also" form, or with a 2~3 sentence brief introduction to the common norms and ways. Regards, — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Oriel Noetics

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I changed the name from Oxford Noetics to Oriel Noetics to match current academic parlance. The term 'Oriel Noetics' has been used by several authors notably:

Peter Mandler 'Tories and Paupers: Christian Political Economy and the Making of the New Poor Law' in Historical Journal 33.1 (March 1990)

Richard Brent 'Liberal Anglican Politics, Whiggery, Religion, and Reform 1830 - 1841' (OUP, 1987), ch. 4 'The Theological Origins of Liberal Anglicanism: Oriel Noetics and Trinity Liberals'

Idem 'The Oriel Noetics', History of the University of Oxford Vol. VI (Nineteenth Century Volume I of II), pp. 73 - 76

Would have put these references in myself but felt too inexperienced to wish to try.

Daryl26 12:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)Daryl

Oriel College, or Oriel College, Oxford?

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Oriel College is the odd one out. Every other Oxford college (and all the Cambridge ones, too) have articles and categories called "Blank College, Oxbridge" - see Category:Colleges of the University of Oxford and Category:Colleges of the University of Cambridge. Even Oriel's main category is Category:Oriel College, Oxford, not Category:Oriel College. I know that, ordinarily, there would be no need for a disambiguating phrase in an article's title in the absence of any other articles needing disambiguation. However, Oriel's article name is inconsistent without good reason. I therefore suggest that the article is moved to Oriel College, Oxford over the redirect. I would be bold and do this myself, but as this is a FA I didn't want to step on toes. Thoughts? Bencherlite ^Talk 10:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Be bold and go ahead. Timrollpickering 12:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. ^talkGiler 13:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thank you. For information, when fixing the double redirect, I found (and have nominated at WP:RFD) The House of Blessed Mary the Virgin in Oxford commonly called Oriel College, of the Foundation of Edward the Second of famous memory, sometime King of England. Bencherlite ^Talk 14:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Pusey

Latest comment: 12 years ago11 comments3 people in discussion

Keeps creeping in as one of the founders of the Oxford Movement. "He was not, however, fully associated in the movement till 1835 and 1836, when he published his tract on baptism and started the Library of the Fathers" - Faught, C. Brad (2003). The Oxford Movement: A Thematic History of the Tractarians and Their Times, University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 978-02710-224-99. He is mentioned in context in the modern section, would require reforming (OR) the way the info is put forward if Pusey is for inclusion in the lead, which IMO (as one the authors getting this FA) he is not for inclusion in the lead.--163.1.146.16 (talk) 06:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The Oxford Movement's founding took place throughout the 1830s, so any author of one of the Tracts for the Times deserves to be called a founding member. All the more so when the movement in question is actually named after that person in one of its most common names (Puseyites). The Tracts only started in 1833 and Pusey was contributing in 1834. That's not relevant, though: the point is that Pusey is noteworthy and that he was a fellow at Oriel. Full stop. This isn't an article about the Oxford Movement.

The purpose of mentioning any of this in the lead in an article about Oriel College, is to say that the three big figures of the movement were fellows at Oriel. The whole theological triumvirate, as it were. The chronology of the Oxford Movement doesn't matter here, rather the relative stature of Oriel's various distinguished alumni. If Keble and Newman are significant enough to warrant mention, then Pusey, who is of equal importance in English and Ecclesiastical history, also deserves mention (more so than Keble, in fact). IMO Cecil Rhodes and Sir Walter Raleigh are also noteworthy enough to deserve mention in the lead. --194.98.58.121 (talk) 14:41, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are many arguments that one could make for many people to be in the lead, all apparently equal or better than the last. This has been a stable Featured Article for years, listyfying the lead to include anyone of import doesn't fit the 'write enough in the lead to summarise the relevant section and entice the reader to read the article. The lead is not there to be a mini stand alone article, although it should be able to do so, it should also be noted that this summarises a section which itself is summarised as it has a stand alone article.--86.6.187.246 (talk) 01:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Then why on earth mention Keble? I don't think there can be any argument that he is a more obscure figure than Pusey, Raleigh, or Rhodes. What does the article gain by singling him out to the exclusion of all Oriel's other alumni, save Newman? If the Nobel laureates aren't named, I don't see any logic to why the first and third most important figures of the Oxford movement should be, passing over the second. --194.98.58.121 (talk) 10:33, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

We are talking about the summary section for the article. It mentions Keble in the same breath and for the same reason as mentions Newman, they are both founders of the OM. You think wrong and putting Pusey alongside Raleigh and Rhodes is laughable. This article is about Oriel, not the Oxford Movement. The laureates are named, in the section, see comment above about placement, balance and encouragement to read the article.--163.1.146.16 (talk) 05:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this article is about Oriel, not the Oxford movement. Therefore, who cares whether Keble founded the Oxford movement? The only reason to mention Keble here is that he was from Oriel, but in that case, the question must necessarily be raised whether his prominence is greater that that of all the other famous Orielenses, who are not mentioned. Their founding or not founding of the Oxford Movement is completely moot. Isn't founding Rhodesia a more significant accomplishment than the assize sermon? If so, Rhodes belongs in the lead, and Keble doesn't. --194.98.58.121 (talk) 10:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Please read the guidance WP:LEAD before acting on what you perceive the purpose of the lead to be. Rhodes was a student (when he was there), the current text talks about prominent fellows, so that would need formulating some text - exactly what text do you think should be there? If you've ever looked at the alumni page for Oriel, you can imagine that theologians will spend all day debating imperialists, sportsmen, politicians and such as to who is most notable, what text do you suggest to summarise the section to which it relates to give proper proportionate cover, that does not have issues such as Raleigh actually being a student of a hall that was later incorporated into Oriel so cannot be easily said to be student at Oriel.

From the college's point of view: Keble and Newman have their portraits in hall, two of twenty: Pusey does not. Keble and Newman have their coats of arms decorating college: Pusey does not. Whereas Keble and Newman were fellows in the full sense, Pusey was elected to a fellowship, but only on the understanding that he would not be a tutor. Their own guides invariably mention Newman, Rhodes, Raleigh, Brummel, White, the Arnolds, Sellars and Yeatman, AJP Taylor, Todd and Meade before they ever mention Pusey. Is it possible that the subject you have studied has coloured your selection of figure that you insisted should go alongside the two easy, clear cut, 'uncriticable' (except by theologians) prominent fellows?--163.1.146.16 (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, my contention is that Keble is not noteworthy enough to warrant mention in the lead. His inclusion is neither "clear-cut" nor "uncriticable", but rather out of place. This could be corrected either by adding Pusey, to emphasise the presence of the three major leaders of the movement, or, since that is proving contentious, by simply removing him altogether from the lead. (Although an argument could be made for retaining Newman, as he is significantly more noteworthy.) Keble is only known today for a few hymns, and the college that Pusey built and named after him.

If we take the portraits in hall as our guide, then Raleigh and Butler are the two alumni that should be mentioned: their portraits are far larger and have pride of place. Marlborough and Pierrepont's achievements of arms are larger. Rhodes, dominating the college's façade on the high, also would have a stronger architectural claim than anyone associated with the Oxford movement.

The point of this paragraph, to quote WP:LEAD, is to "explain why the topic is interesting or notable", viz. because noteworthy people are associated with the college and because it has some noteworthy possessions. At no point have I called any of this into question or altered the structure of the lead. I have merely sought to improve the existing sentences which begin "Oriel's notable alumni include ____" and "Among Oriel's more notable possessions are ____". If you feel that those sentences contradict WP:LEAD, fine. I have cited why I believe that they do not, but in any event, I am not the one who put them there, so your condescension is misplaced.

If we accept that those sentences do belong, it is nonsensical to argue that we should mention Keble by name, even though he's less noteworthy than others, because if we mentioned more noteworthy people, there would be too many others to name!

Rather, if there is no general consensus on who Oriel's most noteworthy two or three alumni are (be they students, fellows, or scouts--association with Oriel is all that's relevant, not the nature of the association), then none should be mentioned by name in the lead. As I write this, no one is named in the lead, which I think is an improved state of affairs. (Though I still find the noteworthy possessions phrase is problematic, as it fails to mention the college's most noteworthy possession, the Magna Carta. Your new phrasing "a painting by painting by Bernard van Orley", in my opinion lowers the quality of the article.) --194.98.58.121 (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll repeat, what form of text are you suggesting? Re: Magna Carta, who says it is Oriel's most notable possession? Source? Whereas I did manage to find who can be sourced as being known as Oriel's most famous person (Raleigh) but as explained already, he was a student of Mary Hall. What form of text are you suggesting be used?--163.1.146.16 (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The correction of an obvious doubling is hardly contentious, yet you chose to leave it in.--163.1.146.16 (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I really don't understand your reply to my pointing out the utter absence of Pusey-isms around the college, having clearly stated that even if we take it from the college's point of view... I did not expect you to take this as any notion or reason for inclusion, it is obvious OR and flies in the face V. I was merely pointing out that college appears not to accord Pusey the same status as Keble, as Keble-isms are evident alongside Newman-isms but Pusey-isms are not to be found. If you enjoy irony you may chuckle at the fact that the only verifiable source regarding portraits (quoted below) I have come across considers neither of the portraits of the students you theorised as being notable as being notable. As to their being in a place of honour - is it not more likely that, considering their size, that unless the monarchs' portraits are displaced, those are the only places they could be accomodated in (that or not have them up at all)?

The college portraits are described in Mrs. R. L. Poole's Catalogue of Oxford Portraits, vol. ii (Oxford Hist. Soc., lxxxi, 1926), pp. 79–108. The most notable are the portraits of Provost Blencowe, dated 1601; Provost Tolson, dated 1637; Provost Say, c. 1660–91; Bishop John Robinson, dated 1713; Provost Eveleigh, c. 1781–1814, by Hoppner; Provost Copleston, c. 1819, by Thomas Phillips; Provost Hawkins, c. 1855, by Sir Francis Grant; Cardinal Newman, c. 1880, by W. W. Ouless, and 1844, by G. Richmond; Charles Boyle, Viscount Dungarvan, 1745, by Arthur Pond.

From: 'Oriel College and St Mary hall', A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 3: The University of Oxford (1954), pp. 119-131. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63876 Date accessed: 09 March 2012.

If you were the person who had spent time and trouble putting this article together, nominating and seeing it through the Featured Article process and appeared to be condescending to an author who repeatedly tinkered with the the summary to add data that they later state shouldn't be in anyway, as well data that is for inclusion but should have gone into body, albeit in the form of a factoid, personally I would not have said that to be misplaced. As you are not and I am, you will forgive any apparent "way I come across" in ensuring the best for the article.--163.1.146.16 (talk) 04:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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Mentioning the Rhodes Must Fall Protests

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At the moment there does not seem to be any mention of the fairly recent Rhodes Must Fall protests that occurred in 2015-16 in the history section. These protests (the main focus of which was the removal of the statue of Cecil Rhodes from the Rhodes building) did receive national media coverage, and in fact a number of notable people from other nations too (including, for example, the former Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott ^[1] weighed in too). Because of the large amount of attention that was given to these protests, and indeed Oriel's handling of the protests, I was wondering whether these events would be worth including in the history section? Clearly because of the controversy surrounding these protests, there may be issues with impartial edits, but if properly checked I think this could be an interesting addition to the article? Agozer (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

References

^ The Guardian Tony Abbott defends threatened statue of 'father of apartheid' Cecil Rhodes 24 December 2015

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[1] The Guardian Tony Abbott defends threatened statue of 'father of apartheid' Cecil Rhodes 24 December 2015

[1]