Talk:Original songs in Smash

Doculd, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but in practice this article is just very messy and confusingly laid out. I think it would be best to restore all the song srticles, and have this as a jumping off point - simply listing the original songs and saying a bit about them, and then if we have any significant kerfuffles in the future about song notability, all we have to do is discuss how to merge that information into here. but as it stands, I think it was much better how it was before. As I explicitly stated, just because an article may not be very big, it doesn't mean it is not notable. I think you have picked and chosen articles which you think to be notable enough to survive on their own, while merge others, based on their facades rather than on how notable the topics themselves are.--Coin945 (talk) 12:13, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite understanding what you are saying. I thought we had pretty much decided that we didn't want to and probably couldn't fight notability for most songs and therefore one page would suffice except for the most significant ones. If you want to go back to separate pages for each song, then this page doesn't really need to exist, as we have the list of songs page to show all the songs and can link to each individual song page from there. Having a separate page from that and individual song pages just seems redundant. And it probably looks messy in part because it's not done yet and has all these infoboxes lying around. I also picked and chose certain songs to stand on their own because that seemed to be the general agreement. I guess there wasn't quite as much consensus as I thought there was. Just to note, I do like the page name change to "Original songs in Smash". Ducold (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

In regards to this page, I just remembered there are several songs that probably wouldn't get their own page because they never got released to the public, like The Higher You Get (unless that doesn't matter) or are only partial songs, like Three On a Match or Chest of Broken Hearts (only a few bars), but are still significant to the plot of the series and therefore should be mentioned. Ducold (talk) 23:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I think User:Caringtype1/Test Page 3 is a bit cleaner than the current state of this article, and mentions every song without going into unneeded detail on songs that are notable enough for their own page. I think using that or something similar for this page would be the best way to go.Caringtype1 (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't object to more cleanup of the page, because it certainly needs it and I figured we would agree on a final format at some point. I also think we hadn't really come to an agreement on which songs should get their own pages except for LMBYS and Touch Me, so I just filled in the details on this page and figured someone would eventually want to break out a song into its page and we could discuss it then. Ducold (talk) 00:12, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As you can see, for all the Season 1 songs that have been released, I moved a lot of the details for those songs where it hadn't already been done to their own pages and am just doing short blurbs on this page. There's still a lot of work to do on Season 2 songs. I'm also trying to get each song section to be more consistent to the page as a whole. In the end, I think those songs that have been released should definitely get their own page, and if we have to, we'll deal with notability challenges when they come up. So, basically agreeing with Coin and Caringtype. :) Ducold (talk) 18:30, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Notability challenge

A Thousand and One Nights, Let's Be Bad, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, The 20th Century Fox Mambo, Cut, Print...Moving On, Mama Makes Three, and They Just Keep Moving the Line are currently getting notability challenges on their individual pages. Please help improve them if you think they're notable enough as individual pages. 144.51.89.67 (talk) 19:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC) (Ducold away from home)

Song pages

I see that many, many of the songs are being re-split into their own pages. I thought the point of this article was so hat we don't have to have a million articles for non-notable songs. Most of these songs aren't very notable and there pages don't have any references. Most of them should be merged into this article again. This is where they should be expanded with sources, and outside notability, then we can spilt them off, if it is necessary.Caringtype1 (talk) 15:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Urgh, I thought we had come to an understanding in the above sections that we would go ahead and create the individual pages for those songs that have been released as singles or on Smash cast albums and deal with notability challenges as they arose. Ducold (talk) 16:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, the notability challenges already exist. So why would we create a page we know is going to be challenged? I thought the understanding was to develop the sections here, then split, so notability wouldn't be a problem.Caringtype1 (talk) 16:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The discussion went back and forth quite a bit and I thought it was left at "go ahead and create the pages". So chalk it up to a possible misunderstanding on my part or maybe I shouldn't assume that further silence equals consent. If we end up re-merging, I do think I Can't Let Go, Heart Shaped Wreckage, and I Heard Your Voice In a Dream at least can stand on their own pretty easily since they sold some digital copies. Ducold (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

While that might be true, all season 2 song articles and most season one ones, at least in their current state, aren't ready for their own page. I could see a song like I Can't Let Go having its own page later on, but all notability concerns should be dealt with here first.Caringtype1 (talk) 23:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Let's get a definite consensus here, to include Coin (who I think wanted individual pages), before we do anything more because all this misunderstanding and back and forth with pages-no pages is driving me a little insane. Ducold (talk) 05:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but I think the consensus should be about individual songs, not just all or none.Caringtype1 (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I just want a consensus first before we fold most of the songs back to this page because the back and forth is getting old. If we decide that, then yes, we should get definite consensus going forward before breaking out any particular song. For me though, I think it's safe to leave particular songs alone with their own pages, like Let Me Be Your Star and Touch Me from Season 1. Ducold (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what do you want a consensus on? I thought the consensus has always been that some songs are definitely notable enough for their own pages (LMBYS, Touch Me).Caringtype1 (talk) 16:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I want us (at least the most active ones of us, which is me, you and Coin) to be on the same page that we really don't want every song (at this time) to have individual pages and therefore most of them shall be folded back into this page. It takes a lot of time to do this (whether splitting out or folding back) and every time it's done, we seem to be in disagreement. I do agree some songs are notable enough for their own page, like LMBYS and Touch Me, plus maybe a few others; I don't think we're in disagreement about that. Ducold (talk) 20:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I sent a message to Coin to weigh in. Let's give it a few days, but if we don't hear from him/her by the weekend or he/she agrees, we can start moving songs back to this page and mark their pages for deletion. I would suggest taking a few at a time or dividing the work since it involves some time. Ducold (talk) 21:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

(It's a he by the way). I;ve been reading this discussion from time to time, but as someone who had semi-retired from Wikipedia, I couldn't really be bothered to comment. But duty calls, so here I am. My view was that all the original songs should be part of their own list article (and Details of songs in Smash was name-changed accordingly to Original songs in Smash, and the content was altered). Then, in addition to that, I thought all the songs deserving of their own articles should have them. The question is which songs are notable enough. I'm not sure. All I can say is don't judge notability solely on the state of the articles at the moment. Some had a lot of time invested into them while others did not. So the sources may be in abundance out there, but just not found yet. Some are definitely notable, and some we can argue over. I'll leave it to you two to duke it out.--Coin945 (talk) 12:15, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Coin. Since I created the new pages in Season 2, I'll volunteer to start the moving back of songs, a few at a time, probably starting with Season 2. Ducold (talk) 21:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for merging many of the individual song articles to this list. Over time, you may be able to split this to original songs by season but for now this is a much better place for the non-notable songs from the series. You can put that such-and-such song was released a single, but I don't think you should put that songs were or are available on iTunes and Amazon - we're not trying to sell anything here. You also shouldn't have to propose any of the current articles for deletion, just redirect the songs to this article. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 23:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Starcheer, I think it's better to clear out the song pages since it was premature to create them in the first place, so I'm having them deleted. In regards to the single releases line, if you continue to remove them because of the iTunes and Amazon information, please at least leave that a song was released as a single so we can preserve that information. Thanks. Ducold (talk) 10:38, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the pages need to be formally deleted, just merged into this article and redirected here.Caringtype1 (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I deleted the pages in large part because it seemed more fair to make the names available for use again and because they haven't been in existence for that long. Since the Season 1 songs have been out there for quite awhile and because several of you have clamored for a redirect instead of a delete, I'll redirect those pages that need it. Ducold (talk) 22:46, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Since this page is basically several mini-articles for songs, i think they should include info boxes. If a song had its own page, it would use a box, so why not use them here. I believe this page originally used them, but were removed because of redundancy. I know some songs may not have enough information to fill the box, which probably means the song isn't that notable. For such songs, (For example, The Higher You Get...) I think it's best if they are grouped together in a new subsection, like the last section here. Thoughts?Caringtype1 (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

My thinking has been to present the songs in the order in which we get them, which really is by episode (except for reprises of course), though they don't necessarily have to be in the same order that they are introduced in each episode. That way, we don't have to decide on order or which should take precedence or what is considered a minor song and which a major song. It seems a lot less messy that way and very straightforward, particularly to someone not that familiar with the show. Another equally good way to present them would be to do it alphabetically. At the very least, I would say leave the order the way it is at least until the show is over, and then we can discuss if there's a better way to present the songs.

As for infoboxes, my feeling is that on a page like this, they just create a lot of messiness and unnecessary clutter. Infoboxes are easy to recreate from song pages that do exist so if a song is voted to get its own page, it would be easy to set up from the information that's already there. Ducold (talk) 23:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I'm surprised you feel that way about the info boxes, since my thinking is the exact opposite. I feel without the box, the sections get messy, long, and unorganized.Caringtype1 (talk) 23:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I feel multiple Infoboxes on one page, especially this article, are very messy and cause a very cluttered look. The next and previous song links, for instance, just look horrible and don't make sense in the way they are used. Perhaps we can think about a mini Infobox (for each song) of just the most necessary and non-redundant information. I'd like some time to think about it if that's ok, perhaps wait to do something until the season is over (because we all know the show will not be renewed :( ). In the meantime, for the songs whose pages are being deleted (or redirected) and info put back here, I'll copy over the page infobox or at least the important information to this page to preserve information (Edited to add: And comment them out for now). Ducold (talk) 21:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I just clicked in here looking for info on a song, and although I think it's wonderful that you guys put info for all of the Smash songs in one place -- WOW, this page is a mess, and adding gazillions of infoboxes would only worsen matters. I understand they've been listed chronologically by episode, but if you're unsure of which episode the song came from (as I was), it's confusing and difficult to find what you're looking for at a glance. Somebody seriously needs to organize this page, either by shows-within-the-show (Bombshell, Hit List, Covers) or alphabetically. Actually, alphabetical seems like the more practical route. VinnieRattolle (talk) 11:33, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Vinnie, there's been a little bit of discussion how best to organize the songs, but I for one felt it best to wait until the series was over before we tackled that. Now that it is, we can probably start doing so. Thank you for your input, as it's good to hear from someone who hasn't spent time on this page and is therefore unfamiliar with it. I do think alphabetical would probably be my first choice as to how to reorganize the page (and maybe the unfinished, partial songs would go in a Partial section?). Anyone disagree? Ducold (talk) 11:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Loss of Info

Of all the stuff you could have saved from each of my those song pages, why have you only saved about two lines? Seems rather light to me. No C.R. info? No context within the ep? I left you to your own devices cos you knew what you were doing and what you wanted, but it seems like a pretty excessive downsizing.--Coin945 (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Coin, of the pages that I've moved over, I've moved over everything but the Release History section as far as I recall. What is C.R. info? Some were light to begin with. If the song still has a Main article link, it hasn't been moved over yet. What songs are you thinking of that you think have been truncated? All the songs that I've moved over lately for Season 1 and a few songs for Season 2 have all been redirects so if something important really is missing, we can just go to the edit of the page and retrieve the info. Ducold (talk) 17:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

c.r. = critical reception. The striked out bit was meant as a subtle reminder that a part of me (though i know i shouldnt) feels some level of personal attatchment to the stuff I added. But that's not why i asked the question. i totes get what you're saying, and i know it can be retrieved and all, but yeah, i was just wondering how what parts of the respective articles you were choosing to save.--Coin945 (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I am saving everything except the Release History section (because that's also in the Infoboxes, which are there but commented out for now; I can go back and get it if it's deemed important). If you look, I am including the Critical Reception where it exists. I am making some minor changes in wording here or there, but all sections except Release History are being brought over. I also didn't bring over the stuff at the end of each article after the Reference section, like Wikipedia categories and External links (now that I think about it, the latter could be important for some songs). I basically copied up to the References section, or usually the Release History section. If you could point out what songs you think are missing information, we can see if I missed something. Ducold (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Reordering the songs

It's been suggested that the songs be reordered to make it easier to find them. One suggestion was alphabetical and I like that idea. We can always make adjustments later, like separating out incomplete songs, but we can start with putting the songs in alphabetical order. Is there any disagreement with this idea? If I don't hear any within a week, I'll go ahead and do it. Ducold (talk) 15:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

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