Talk:Orthilia

Latest comment: 5 years ago by Amakuru in topic Requested move 9 March 2017

Requested move 9 March 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Looking just at the !votes from the reopened 2019 conversation (but noting that a large number of opposes were registered in 2017, and unfortunately very few of those pinged returned to re-look at this). The point is made that Orthilia kareliniana is a different species and a contender for the name, but this was refuted by Peter coxhead and overall there was no huge consensus or strong body of evidence from the recent conversation that would reverse the large number of previous opposes. Feel free to come back and make a strongly evidenced case in future, but for now the status quo remains.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:00, 13 August 2019 (UTC)Reply



OrthiliaOrthilia secunda – This article is about species Orthilia secunda, not genus Orthilia. Wikidata should be adjusted too. Darekk2 (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2017 (UTC) --Relisted. Paine Ellsworthed. put'r there  01:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Relist note: While at a glance this appears as consensus not to rename, I relisted it because of the support !vote and rationale that shows there are two species, O. secunda and O. kareliniana. Since all opposers base their rationales on WP:MONOTYPICFLORA, it is hoped that they are monitoring this RM and will return to rethink their rationales. Paine Ellsworthed. put'r there  01:06, 2 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
Pinging Darekk2, Jenks24, EncycloPetey, Nyttend, Plantdrew, Choess and Peter coxhead. Paine Ellsworthed. put'r there  01:22, 2 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
Members of WikiProject Plants have been notified of this re-opened discussion. Paine Ellsworthed. put'r there  01:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

This is a contested technical request (permalink). EdJohnston (talk) 16:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Pinging the creator, User:Geschichte, and the following editors who have moved the page in the past: User:Plantdrew, User:Nyttend and User:EncycloPetey. It should not be hard to fix Wikidata once a decision has been made on what title should be used here on the English Wikipedia. EdJohnston (talk) 17:21, 9 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
The article should not be moved per the cited WP policy, and should remain at Orthilia . Wikidata has its own agenda, and this discussion (and many similar ones) have been held repeatedly. Wikidata collects data by taxon name, not according to any article, and there are many hundreds of pages across all language Wikipedias with this same issue. Some WP projects choose to place the article for a monotypic taxon at the genus, and some place it at the species, while a few repeat the information for both. Because of the differences at various WP projects, Wikidata will necessarily not have interwikis connecting all the articles. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:26, 9 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose At en.wiki, the only species in a monotypic genus is discussed in an article with the genus title, per WP:MONOTYPICFLORA and WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA. Other language Wikipedias have chosen different solutions. This is known issue for Wikidata (see d:WD:Bonnie and Clyde) but that's something for Wikidata folks to figure out how to handle. Practice at en.wiki clearly favors the current title. Plantdrew (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • Here is an example article about Orthilia secunda:
    Gruszynka_jednostronna
    It contains links to about 20 other articles about Orthilia secunda in the left panel, no one is English. Because English description is hidden in the areticle about genus Orthilia. Species is species, genus is genus, hiding species in an article about genus is not only nonsense, but sort of vandalism. Darekk2 (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose as per my comment above. As has been noted by others, this is a problem for Wikidata to fix. To call it "vandalism" is bizarre. Jenks24 (talk) 03:19, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. Our guidelines on monotypic taxon naming exist for a reason: if we insisted on having separate articles for both genus and species, either one article would have to be a permanent one-line stub, or their content would be largely duplicated and require constant synchronization. Neither of these is desirable. Darekk2, please read the "Bonnie and Clyde" problem help page on Wikidata that Plantdrew linked to, because it shows that the accusations you have made are not true. Choess (talk) 14:23, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. Our policy is quite clear, as has been noted above. The underlying problem is a well understood design fault in Wikidata, namely that it can only handle 1:1 relationships between Wikipedia articles. This is not in the slightest specific to taxa, it happens whenever one Wikipedia splits material between separate articles that is kept in one article in another. It's absolutely a problem for Wikidata to solve; to suppose that articles in different Wikipedias would always be in a 1:1 relationship was an elementary error that I wouldn't expect anyone with any experience of database design to make. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:13, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

above: 2017, below: 2019

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.