Talk:Orthodox Churches

There are currently three articles on this topic, and we should merge them

Wikipedia currently has three articles on the topic of Eastern Christianity (that is, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and smaller splits from them). The articles are Eastern Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, and Orthodox Churches. Wikipedia policy says that if multiple articles exist on the same topic, they should be merged. The article Eastern Christianity is by far the longest, most well-developed and best written. As such, I propose that Orthodox Christianity, and Orthodox Churches should have their content merged into Eastern Christianity (unless similar content is already there), and become redirects for it. Ohff (talk) 07:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Please do NOT merge this page to Eastern Christianity. This article is to provide an overall idea of so called "orthodox churches" - both 'Eastern' and 'Oriental' and also other orthodox churches which are not into any of these 2 groups. Eastern Christianity is a "super set" which includes both orthodox families (eastern & oriental) as well Eastern Catholic churches and Nestorian churches. Hence I request to drop this merging proposal. Instead of that we can merge Orthodox Christianity to this article (Orthodox Churches) or viceversa , but still the better title to be used is 'Orthodox Churches' . ---John C. (talk) 08:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I support the view of Johnchacks. Esoglou (talk) 08:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand your point, but the fact is that the Orthodox Churches make up the vast majority of the Eastern Christianity super-set. So, if we do what you ask, we will get one article (Orthodox Christianity/Orthodox Churches) which covers 90% the same content as Eastern Christianity. Plus, the Eastern Christianity article is a lot longer than either Orthodox Christianity or Orthodox Churches, so it actually contains more information about the Orthodox Churches than this article does. We could copy the relevant content from Eastern Christianity to Orthodox Christianity/Orthodox Churches, but, like I said, that would leave us with two articles that are 90% the same.

It would be like having an article on Italy and a separate article on the Italian Republic, because the geographical region known as Italy contains two small countries (San Marino and the Vatican) which are not part of the Italian Republic. The two articles would have only very small differences.

So, I really do believe that we should go ahead with the merger, but also edit the introduction of the merged article to explain that "Eastern" is not the same as "Orthodox". And then we could divide the article in three large super-sections: (1) Orthodox (Eastern + Oriental), (2) Eastern Catholic, and (3) Nestorian. The terms "Orthodox Churches" and "Orthodox Christianity" could redirect to the Orthodox super-section of the Eastern Christianity article (yes, it is possible to redirect to a specific section within an article, rather than the article as a whole). What do you think? Ohff (talk) 08:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Basically, what I am saying is that I completely agree that we need some place to provide an overall idea of the so called "Orthodox Churches", but I think that should be a section within the article on Eastern Christianity, not a separate article. If it's a separate article, it would overlap too much with Eastern Christianity. Ohff (talk) 09:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

There is an article on the Italian Peninsula, a short one, with references to the three component states you mention, each of which is treated at length elsewhere. It wouldn't make sense to treat the Italian Republic merely as an important section within Italian Peninsula. Couldn't there be a short article on Eastern Christianity, with references to its component parts, each of which would be treated at length elsewhere? Esoglou (talk) 09:31, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, we should see Orthodox Churches and Eastern Christianity articles in different contexts. Orthodox Churches is about churches which are known as "Orthodox" from a wider view (pls do not just view as the subcategory and/or vast majority of Eastern Christianity) - how Orthodox churches are different from Catholic and Protestant churches, Why do they refer by the name orthodox, what are different groups in Orthodox family etc. Eastern Christianity is about a tradition which is today sharing among Orthodox(Eastern+Oriental), Eastern Catholic and Nestorian churches.

Of course, there would be some/many contents common to both these articles. But merging is not the solution. Separate out the contents which are more relevant to the respective articles and well connect these articles with proper links (like Eastern Catholic Churches is pointed from Eastern Christianity). ---John C. (talk) 09:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Another article that could be profitably (re)merged with Orthodox Churches (together with Orthodox Christianity) is List of Orthodox Churches. Orthodox Churches has only very recently been distinguished from List of Orthodox Churches, in my view unnecessarily. Esoglou (talk) 15:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good suggestion. Merge(Orthodox Christianity & List of Orthodox Churches) --> Orthodox Churches. ---John C. (talk) 23:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think you've convinced me. Especially if we merge a lot of articles about Orthodoxy together (for example Orthodox Churches + Orthodox Christianity + List of Orthodox Churches + Orthodoxy by country), then we will get a single article that is sufficiently long and detailed to justify staying separate from Eastern Christianity.

However, there are broader implications for Wikipedia's treatment of Christianity if we do this. As it currently stands, Wikipedia emphasizes the common points between all Eastern Churches, and plays down the differences (by having a detailed article on Eastern Christianity but not one on Orthodox Christianity, and by having an Eastern Christianity sidebar but no sidebar(s) about Orthodoxy). Do you think we should change this, for example by creating separate sidebars for Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, distinct from the Eastern Christianity sidebar? I have no opinion on the matter.

One thing I really would like, though, is for the new merged article to be called Orthodox Christianity and not Orthodox Churches. Each of the two main Orthodox communions (Eastern and Oriental) claims to be THE Orthodox Church (singular). Having an article with the name "Orthodox Churches" may be seen as endorsing the POV that there are multiple Orthodox Churches, instead of just one. It's a bit like having an article with the name "Catholic Churches", listing all the Churches that claim to be Catholic. The title "Orthodox Christianity" is less likely to be disputed, and less likely to be seen as POV. Ohff (talk) 12:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking time to share your views on this topic. In my opinion, let us start with merging Orthodox Christianity and List of Orthodox Churches to this article. Then we can go for merging other orthodoxy articles.

The title of the merged article should be Orthodox Churches. Let me explain the reasons. (1)There are multiple Orthodox Churches (its a fact,not POV) . Because all major orthodox churches are "autocephalous" (not only autonomous) which is not the case with sui iuris churches (autonomous particular churches) within Catholic Church. Hence a one-to-one mapping would not be possible in this case. (2)We (Wikipedia) do not have to follow the 'claim' of any church/church communion about THE Orthodox church (single). Instead, we should adopt a neutral view based on the facts.--John C. (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The term "Church" is somewhat ambiguous. It may refer to an autocephalous jurisdiction, but it may also refer to the collection of all such jurisdictions within a given communion. Thus, for example, Wikipedia calls the Russian Orthodox Church a "Church", but also calls the Eastern Orthodox Church as a whole a "Church" (not a group of Churches). This is in keeping with the way the Eastern Orthodox themselves use the word "Church" (sometimes it means one jurisdiction, sometimes it means the entire communion).

Of course we should adopt a neutral view based on the facts, and not follow the claims of any particular Church. However, the use of the term Orthodox Christianity accomplishes the goal of being neutral and has the added benefit of not contradicting the claims of any particular Church. So why not use it? Notice, for example, that Wikipedia has an article called Protestantism, not Protestant Churches. Also, the number of articles that use the term "Orthodox Christianity" and link to the Orthodox Christianity article is very large (they are over 1500, see here). Clearly this is a very common term. So, again, why not use it? Ohff (talk) 03:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

While going through wiki articles on different Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, it can be observed that they introduced as an autocephalous Eastern Orthodox Church OR an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox Church. This itself implies that this church is one of the orthodox churches (in either Eastern or Oriental family). The ambiguities the term "Church" can be made clearer in the article, if needed in introductory section itself.

Before answering to the question why don't we use Orthodox Christianity as the title for the merged article, let's have a look on current Orthodox Christianity article - hardly 10 lines in a 10+ years old article!! What is happening now is that majority of wiki users are not reaching to that article. Usually every one searches for 'Orthodox Church' or 'Orthodox Churches' not 'Orthodox Christianity'. Also Protestantism is not a good example for this topic, because term Protestant is not in similar lines with the term Orthodox - I don't think traditional protestant churches refer themselves as Protestant. Hence let me reiterate that we should use 'Orthodox Churches' as the title for the merged article and 'Orthodox Christianity' should only be used as a redirection. ---John C. (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen sources referring to the Eastern Orthodox as a family of Churches. They are nearly always called - by themselves and others - a Church. How can a Church be composed of several Churches? Well, the English word "Church" is used to translate the Greek εκκλησία, which originally meant "community of believers". It is easy to see that a community may be composed of several communities. The word "community" can be used for a large group and for its component parts. That is how the word "Church" is used by the Orthodox.

The reason why Orthodox Christianity is so short is because, until a few months ago, it was a disambiguation page and not an article. Look here to see what that page was like in August 2012, and for most of the 10 years before that. Disambiguation pages are not supposed to grow or get more content over time. They are supposed to be more-or-less fixed lists of articles that have confusingly similar names.

In terms of how many people have seen the article, we do not have to guess. There is a website that allows you to get page views statistics for different Wikipedia pages. In the last 90 days, Orthodox Christianity has been viewed 55186 times [1]. In the same amount of time, the article on Eastern Christianity (which is of course far longer and better) has only been viewed 32760 times [2]. All the other articles proposed here for merger, put together, have been viewed less than Orthodox Christianity: 3198 times for Orthodox Churches [3], 9635 times for List of Orthodox Churches [4], and 7005 times for Orthodoxy by country [5]. This was a real surprise for me. I didn't expect so many more people to be going to Orthodox Christianity rather than the other articles. Having seen this, I really became convinced that we need to use "Orthodox Christianity" as the name of the merged article. Ohff (talk) 21:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

"It is easy to see that a community may be composed of several communities". yes, I know and in that aspect only we use church here. Even I too have noticed that Eastern Orthodox Churches use the term "Orthodox Church". But in the case of Oriental Churches, they use the term "Orthodox Churches".

Assuming we use the title as Orthodox Christianity for the merged article, can we redirect the titles Orthodox Church and Orthodox Churches to the merged article? It is the right of both families (EO & OO) to be known as Orthodox and it is a fact too. Also, someone referring a Church as Orthodox, it can be an EO or OO based on the region where that church family predominates (for example, in Russia it may be Eastern and in Egypt it may be Oriental). With a broader thinking and unbiased vision, we can easily understand this.

Let's also wait for Esoglou's (one of the active contributors to this article) comments/suggestions. ---John C. (talk) 01:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should wait for Esoglou before we proceed with any action, but here is my opinion: The page Orthodox Churches should, of course, redirect to Orthodox Christianity (or any other name we use for the article about Orthodoxy-in-general). However, in the case of Orthodox Church (singular), it's more complicated. As you explained, both EO and OO Christians refer to themselves as "Orthodox", but only EO Christians tend to refer to themselves as a single "Orthodox Church" (notice, for example, that the OO article is called Oriental Orthodoxy, not Oriental Orthodox Church; and you said that Oriental Churches tend to use the term "Orthodox Churches").

In general, when the term "Orthodox Church" is used in the singular and without any adjectives, it almost always means EO, not OO. You can see this even on Wikipedia: If you look at the articles that link to "Orthodox Church", and read them to find out the context in which they use the term "Orthodox Church", you will notice that in the vast majority of cases they are talking about EO specifically, not about Orthodoxy in general or about OO. This means that most of the time when someone clicks on a link to Orthodox Church, he is looking for EO, due to the large number of articles that say "Orthodox Church" when they mean EO. Therefore, I think we have two choices here: Either we keep Orthodox Church as a redirect to Eastern Orthodox Church, in keeping with common usage, or we go through all the Wikipedia pages that use "Orthodox Church" as a synonym for EO and we edit them to say "Eastern Orthodox Church". I am willing to support either option, but the second one requires far more work.

By the way, as a side note, it turns out that the term "Orthodox Church" is less important on Wikipedia than "Orthodox Christianity." There were 32103 views for "Orthodox Church" in the past 90 days [6], as opposed to the 55186 views for "Orthodox Christianity." Ohff (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Update: I just noticed that the term Orthodox Christian currently redirects to Eastern Orthodox Church. I think it would be a good compromise to make it redirect to the merged article about Orthodoxy-in-general (since both EO and OO call themselves Orthodox Christians), but leave Orthodox Church as a redirect for Eastern Orthodox Church, since it is for the most part an EO term. Ohff (talk) 07:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to be unable to present a decided view on the choice between "Orthodox Christianity" and "Orthodox Churches" as a title for the merged article. I have been swayed successively one way or the other by the arguments proposed, but with the widening of the discussion to include the question of "Orthodox Church", which in arguably POV fashion redirects to "Eastern Orthodox Church". I feel I have lost my way. If "Orthodox Church" is kept as now, perhaps "Orthodox Churches" is preferable as a counterbalance. If "Orthodox Church" ceases to redirect exclusively to "Eastern Orthodox Church", perhaps "Orthodox Christianity", the most looked-up title, is better. Esoglou (talk) 10:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the most important thing is to make sure that Wikipedia is consistent in its use of names for topics. We must assume that a lot of readers come to these articles knowing nothing about the subject, so we should be careful not to confuse them. Most of the articles that link to Orthodox Church actually mean Eastern Orthodox Church. For example, the opening paragraph of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople article says that it is part of the "Orthodox Church". If we made Orthodox Church redirect to an article about both EO and OO, readers may be confused about whether the Ecumenical Patriarchate is EO or OO.

Of course, that problem could be fixed by changing the link from "Orthodox Church" to "Eastern Orthodox Church", but there are hundreds of articles that have this problem. It would be a monumental task to change them all. As I've said, if someone is willing to do this - to go through every instance of "Orthodox Church" being used as a synonym for EO and change the link to Eastern Orthodox Church - then I would agree with making Orthodox Church redirect to an article about both EO and OO. But otherwise, such a redirect would only confuse readers.

There is also the fact that "Orthodox Church" is a term most often used to refer to EO, even outside Wikipedia, but I think that's relatively less important. Ohff (talk) 22:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that using the title "Orthodox Christianity" violates the principle of neutral point of view. The Roman Catholics and Protestants consider themselves to be orthodox Christians! In fact, I suppose even Nestorians do. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)