Talk:Oviri

New section

Anyone who has access to Jstor should take a look at this article.[1] Thanks, Lithoderm 00:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Soyez amoureuses vous serez heureses

Don't have access myself, but it's sourced in the NGA 1988 exhibition catalogue I'm editing from and I'll look out for it. Preview was useful for the Louvre drawing, which has two entries in the Joconde catalogue and hard to sort out. I'll upload an image of that to Commons today and as many other images of the graphic works I can lay my hands on. Preview also useful for a better translation of "Soyez amoureuses ..." I'll incorporate in the Gauguin article. Thank you. c1cada (talk) 06:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

DYK 2 March 2009

The 2 March 2009 DYK ... that Paul Gauguin described the Tahitian goddess he sculpted in 1894, Oviri, as "monstrous and majestic, drunk with pride, rage and sorrow"? is a fiction (the offending edit has been in place since the article start). The remark comes from a poem by Charles Morice and he was writing about another scuplture Shining Hina. The edit is all the more surprising because the article start cites Landy, who documents all Gauguin's references to Oviri, essentially just three in number.

I will correct the text and countenance greater care at DYK (yet another DYKF thus ...). When relatively obscure sources (it cost me $40 to obtain an online copy) such as Sue Taylor's (admittedly admirable) paper are cited, they should be accompanied by a direct quotation of the relevant text:

'Gauguin's initial interest in the epithet [Oviri] may have been inspired by a Tahitian song titled "Oviri", which he had heard during his first stay in the South Seas and which, according to Danielsson, he took the trouble of writing down in the original language. The song concerned a man in love with two women, echoing Gauguin's dual attachment at the time — to his wife and to his Tahitian vahine Teha'amana. Through the song, as well as through his own self-image as a "wicked monster" and an uncivilized being, Gauguin associated himself with the fatal woman he invented in 1895. One senses that Morice could have been writing about his tormented friend when, in his poem about the sculpture he called "Shining Hina", he characterized Oviri as "monstrous and majestic, Drunk with pride, rage, and sorrow."'

c1cada (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

ENGVAR

What WP:ENGVAR is this in? I see "worshiping" (AmEng) and "romanticising" (BrEng) in the same sentence in the second paragraph of the lead. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

While on the subject of mixed styles: in the lead "Oviri-moe-aihere" is translated using italics (The savage who sleeps in the forest) while La Tueuse is translated using quotemarks ("The Murderess"). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm for PaddyEng, uh, BrEng - will try and swap. Ceoil (talk) 08:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Lingzhi comments from FAC

Moving here so work can continue Ceoil (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Lingzhi

• In refs but not cited: Branciforte, Castets, Goldwater, Kunstler, Malingue (1943), [not sure what to make of oft-mentioned but never-cited Morice and Vollard], Pielkovo, Sugana, Szech, Wadley.

  Banished to "further reading, but may cut Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Why does Gedo give the year of publication as a page number? Coincidence?  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  Not really; fixed Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• "Gauguin was deeply unhappy..." This paragraph seems a bit incoherent.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  Cut now Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Who is Yeon Shim Chung?

  Don't know, debris from an earlier version, but has a fb page! Cut now Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• "his familiar Inca profile" familiar to whom, and who says it is Inca?

  Cut Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• "monstrous and majestic, drunk with pride, rage and sorrow" if you're suggesting this also is Gauguin's self-perception and was thus projected into his work, please make the connection explicit

  Now says Related is the delight Gauguin took from its alternative title "savage", and the implications of a brutal, bloodthirsty deity, which, he seems to imply, refers as much to himself as the goddess Ceoil (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• when Degas quoted La Fontaine's fable The Wolf and the Dog: "You see, Gauguin is the wolf." OK. According to Degas, is Gauguin the wolf in the story, or in the Oviri, or both... and... if you're gonna toss out a mention a story by La Fontaine, you should give at least a one-sentence summary of the story itself and how it is connected to Gauguin

• linked fable, with short, 8 odd word summary. Ceoil (talk) 18:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• what Vaugirard studio?

• Linked now Ceoil (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• "She smothers a wolf with her feet while tightly clutching" Later text says it's unclear if she's smothering or embracing.. perhaps the uncertainty whether the civilized is embracing or killing the wild is a point worthy of mention in the lede.... maybe
  • The whole smothering/not smothering contradiction still not addressed.

• Ceoil (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• "ever keen to increase his public exposure" please add "According to Danielsson" to make it explicit that Danielsson adds this editorial info, not WP

  Yes; reworded Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• "invoking ideas of sacrifice, infanticide and the archetype of the vengeful mother." None of these 3 ideas are mentioned in later text, none cited.. and while we're on this topic, you know, I think the whole interpretation section hits pretty hard on the idea that Oviri is a symbol of Gauguin himself as an androgynous wild man, yet that isn't mentioned in the lede... so the interpretations in the lede are unsupported, but those supported by the text are unmentioned.

  Yes, that's absolutely the case. Drat; working....Ceoil (talk) 00:54, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• Please translate Tueuse in both mentions ["The Murderess", referring to Oviri]

  Done Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• I have a request not strictly related to the current article and thus not formally a part of this FAC review, but as a polite appeal to your better nature, you'd be doing a service to us all if you'd create at least a stub for Ernest Chaplet.
  • Multiple thanks for the Chaplet article. I added Wikiprojects to the talk page.
• The description section doesn't mention the vagina in the back of Oviri's head
  • Still doesn't mention it. Should.
    • Done Ceoil (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
• "The ceramic was never shipped out." where do quotation marks go? Is that part of the quote?

• Cut Ceoil (talk) 21:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

• "invoking ideas of sacrifice, infanticide and the archetype of the vengeful mother." Is all of this from Taylor, then?
• No, cited to the Kahn now. Ceoil (talk) 16:14, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
• Interpretation is a large section, so there should be at least 1 sentence in the lede about interpretation (unless I missed it). You know, "Some people say it's Gauguin's epithet as an androgynous wild man, but some people say it's a a vengeful mother, blah blah bah.

• Added a bit, more to come there - might have to re-balance the lead. Ceoil (talk) 21:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
• Lingzhi, heading out now for a while, but hope to finish addressing these this evening. Your input has been most helpful and welcome. Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Am re-giging the interpretation sect. Ceoil (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
    • interpretation sect re-giged. Phew. Ceoil (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry so slow but I don't always have blocks of time big enough to actually engage my bain and think about what I'm doing. After Oviri wasn't or nearly wasn't admitted to the salon in the winter of 1894, was there any notable reaction to its... showing? I'm actually not clear if it was admitted or not because an earlier sentence says it was expelled, which to me at least seems to mean "sayonara baby!" And then it made a stir much later in 1903 or so, but where was it between times? Tks.
• "and invokes 'Séraphitus-Séraphita'" invokes is present tense, confusingly, and did the play invoke that or did Gauguin? I assume the latter.. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
• "of the vengeful mother, drawing from..." the word "drawing" ambiguous in article about art
• "Tahitian song; a melancholy" dash or comma but not semicolon please (grammar/punct)
• "the love of two women" for each other, or third person? Nitpick: I'd go with "recount" rather than "convey", but maybe that's just me.

"Between", dash, now "influenced by Eugène Delacroix's 1838..." Ceoil (talk) 01:09, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Needs a copy edit, and breasts

This article has a mixture of Br Eng spellings ('romanticises'/'romanticised', 'artefacts', 'civilised', 'favourite') and Am Eng ones ('centered', 'watercolor', 'traveling'). From previous comments here on the talk page it appears it should all be with Br Eng spellings. Whatever the choice, it should be consistent and kept to. I'm surprised to find this in a featured article.

Also, breasts. They are described as 'large' at one point, and 'adolescent' at another, which adjectives would appear to contradict each other. Seriously, do they need describing at all? The salient point is that they are bared, not that they are large or small. I would say they are neither large nor adolescent, but the whole thing is so subjective as to not require comment.

Figure: Relief from a façade in the throne room of Sargon II (Khorsabad, 713–706 BC), showing an Assyrian hero grasping a lion and a snake. Needs the Museum/Gallery/Collection name giving.

Note c needs a concluding speech mark.

Colonial experience

This section doesn't seem to focus much on colonialism, or much of anything for that matter. First it starts off talking about androgyny, then it hints that it was a self-portrait (which is the next section), then it moves on to the scent of Tahitian women. How is any of this an interpretation of the sculpture? It's not very clear. Brutannica (talk) 23:43, 31 January 2018 (UTC)