Talk:Owasippe Scout Reservation

Needed

This article wants badly for a History section. Problem is, short of pawing through 100 years of newspapers, the usual source for such information is Oral History, hence the conflicts of information between current sources about basic facts. Any bit of Scouting history related to Owasippe, or information about the camps' history itself that can be verified is sorely needed. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 08:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, any information about the ecology of the reservation would also go far in improving the article. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 08:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

How about this:

Camp Owasippe-located near Whitehall, Michigan-Chicago Area Council-since 1911

The first 40 acres that became Camp Owasippe was purchased in 1910 near Whitehall, Michigan. In 1911 a small group of Scouts and workmen dug a well and built the basics of a camp. In 1912 they held their first summer camp operation there. The camp was originally at Crystal Lake and was called Camp White in 1912. In 1913 the name was changed to Camp Owasippe. Since vacant land is not really a camp, 1910 would not seem to be the start date for Owasippe. They took a steamship to get there for camp in 1912, so it isn't likely troops were hiking in from Chicago for weekend camping in 1911. The 1919 camp manual gave the original name of Camp White and actually said the camp was established in 1912 (when they held their first camp). The Chicago Council was using the 1912 date in 1972 as the Owasippe patch that year says it was the camp's 60th anniversary. In 1961 they used a patch that said 1911 was the start date (their 50th anniversary patch). In 1996 they put on their camp patch that it was Owasippe's 85th anniversary (using the 1911 date). They seem to have been undecided as to which of the two years to use. I suppose you could take your pick (and many will) of 1910, 1911 or 1912 but I would have gone with the year 1912 since it wasn't used as a camp until then. Even though it started out with 40 acres it eventually grew to about 14,000 acres in size. Some of it was sold off in recent years including the original 40 acres so that the camp currently contains about 5,000 acres. This is Not to say there were two different Owasippes in two different locations, as there was not. They didn't buy a second site, move to it and sell off the first. The original and current acreage was all included in one massive reservation. It is still a very large camp with a tremendous history. Their camp manual, which is online, has an extremely interesting story in it about Chief Owasippe and his two sons.

Eby, David L. (2014). "America's Oldest Boy Scout Camps". Retrieved 2001-08-01.

--evrik ^(talk) 01:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

expansion request

In compliance with Scouting WikiProject policy on sub-council entities, I propose the expansion of this article into a larger Chicago Area Council article, with information added from Scouting_in_Illinois#Chicago_Area_Council. Local articles really need to be council level rather than by camp or lodge. Examples of good Council articles include Cradle of Liberty Council and Chester County Council, all others have been or are stubs, and we really are trying to avoid sub-council articles. Chris 02:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Since this applies to a camp and not a subunit of a council, I don't think the policy applies. In fact, having looked at said policy and the associated discussion, I find no mention of articles for camps at all. Besides, detailed descriptions and histories of the most prominent camps are more readily available (and, IMHO, more interesting) than those of councils. There's already enough information here to merit its remaining a separate article, and it appears no pressing need to split off the CAC section from the Scouting in Illinois page. Thesquire (talk - contribs) 04:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

True, the RulesStandards page doesn't mention council camps and reservations by name (we should fix that), but they are considered subunits of councils. IMHO the size of this article is borderline as to make it part of a CAC article or leave it separate. If this article were expanded, it would easily warrant standing alone. Then a CAC article could be made with a summary and main link about this article.Rlevse 10:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

expand, as per nomination and discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards. Chris 01:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Vanity Discussion

By adding a section of Staffperson of the year, we can not only expand the article there by preventing it from being merged with a CAC article, and also recognize these parts of OSR history that it lacks. True there are not any "famous" staff people of the year, but they have made extraordinary contributions to the camp and scouting community and also are recognized by their peers. This section has been added already, but deleted by over-zealous wikipedia checkers who do not agree that this has a place here, when in fact it is part of the history of Owasippe (especially if the list could be completed). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.3.21.125 (talk • contribs) 22:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT a directory, nor is it an indiscriminate collection of information. I also happen to know that this anonymous user is one of the persons on the mentioned list (since he yelled at me via an online messaging program), and as such this is an issue of vanity.-- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 20:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, "Name withheld to avoid vanity argument" is tantamount to admitting you're wrong. Why do you keep adding it? -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 06:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Swim Area

I added a second photo of the Camp Stuart swim area, taken from the same position in 2006. ADH 20:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I would like to bring up the fact that many External Links on this page are not in accordance with the External Links guidelines. Specifically "The Scarlet Sassafrass" and others. I think this section needs to be revamped and those links need to be removed. Some guidelines that apply to this deletion include, but are not limited to:

• Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, as detailed in Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
• A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important objective at Wikipedia, and a difficult one. If it is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let other — neutral — Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link.

Do these sites really contain accurate and especially NEUTRAL material? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Seanhaneberg 15:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

After waiting for an addition to this discussion, and since there was a lack of it, I've deleted three links that had POV concerns. Seanhaneberg 00:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The Owasippe BBS is not in accordance with External Links Guideline 7 stating that "Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), or discussion forums" should not be included. Link has been deleted.

*[http://www.owasippe-bbs.com/ The Owasippe BBS - LEAVE THE LINK ALONE, SEAN!!!]

I moved this comment to the discussion page. ADH 18:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• I've not been on wikipedia much recently, else I'd have chimed in sooner, but I agree with Seanhaneberg on this one. --Thesquire (talk - contribs) 19:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

*[http://www.owasippe-bbs.com/ The Owasippe BBS - Compromise by adding a new LINKS 
section where this link and the Scarlet Sassafras can be put, making it clear that these
 sites do not fit with the usual external links as stated by Wiki...]

Moved compromise suggestion: ADH 22:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how i feel about that suggestion. This is, after all, an encyclopedia, not just a place to put links which are clearly slanted in one way. I would say no to a new links section, as it is not even encyclopedic in itself. Also, whoever keeps adding the BBS link in, it might be a better idea to create an account and make your case heard instead of defacing the page. Seanhaneberg 17:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm the owner and operator of the Owasippe BBS and I have been the one who keeps adding the link. I didn't want to start an account for this one thing, but whatever now. I didn't know the link didn't conform to any rules when I first added it. I understand that it doesn't fall in with Wiki's guidelines, but I still think that site like mine and the Scarlet Sassafrass should have a place since they are Owasippe-related. Therefore, I proposed a compromise. Create a separate link section, put those two links in it and write whatever disclaimer you want making people fully aware that this section of links isn't objective, etc. That way everyone is happy. There's nothing wrong with it and even though Wiki is encyclopedia in nature, that shouldn't preclude adding pertinent links even though they don't conform to that nature.

Also, the Owasippe BBS can be a source of information, particularly first hand information for campers and staffers. Such a valuable source of information shouldn't be disregarded simply because it's in the format of a message board. That's my case. - Cable-X1

It really has nothing to do with being "happy" or being unhappy for that matter. After looking at each link in the BBS, any pertinent information there could easily be found on the OSA website or on the Chicago Area Council site (i.e. interview times and locations). Also, your require registration to post, if im not mistaken, which is also against the external link guidelines. It seems this is more a matter of site promotion rather than informing people on Owasippe. Seanhaneberg 15:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I freely admit that it is a little bit of site promotion. Of course, I would like people to come to my site and participate. You used to be on staff? How come you won't sign up?

Back on track though...I gave this some thought and actually, the whole Owasippe article is questionable on a few levels. You and I know that there's very little "officially" recognized sources on the history of Owasippe, if any. No one has written an actual history book, so most of the history of Owasippe is passed by word of mouth (oral history, as you stated above). So by Wiki's rules, all that information that is passed orally cannot be included in the Owasippe article on Wiki...that is, unless you can find hard evidence and I'd like to see where you will find that. Something written on camp stationary doesn't count and I'd like to see what newspaper articles are going to cover the story of Chief Owasippe and his sons....AND if there is such a newspaper article, then that article OBVIOUSLY got their information from word of mouth too. So you see, the point I'm trying to make is that the MAJOR source for information about Owasippe is oral history and thus CANNOT be included in the Wiki article. So you want to exclude all the great stuff we heard at camp cuz it doesn't fit in with Wiki's "rules." I think the Owasippe article is one of those exceptions to the rules. Why isn't the story of Cheif Owasippe in the article? It darn well should be, but it can't be included cuz of the rules. I think the rules should be a little bent in this case or there should be new rules to accomodate important information that isn't documented in texts yet. Owasippe clearly falls into this category. So basically, I challenge Wiki's rules and your stance with them cuz I think there's important information being excluded when it should be included and it's being done so by rather narrow-minded rules. Not all things in life fit neatly into a rule book. Get my drift?

Back to the BBS issue. I believe it should be included based on my argument above. If oral history is the MAJOR source of info on Owasippe, then the BBS is a great place to get it....provided people join and share. As for the registration to post bit, that's immaterial in light of my argument. -- Cable-X1

Alright, let me try to break down your most recent argument. You state “I gave this some thought and actually, the whole Owasippe article is questionable on a few levels.” If you actually read the article, instead of just reposting your website link, you would see that the article has been written very factually but someone who I would consider to be an utmost rule follower. The first section gives factual information like its location and size. These can hardly be called “oral history.” The next section gives information on section camps, past and present. I doubt anyone can contest that there used to be, for example, Camp Stuart. Now the wildlife section could be challenged, except for the fact that there was a bio-blitz completed by The Nature Conservancy, who in my opinion are highly qualified in that field. On a personal note though, I do believe there are bears living in the forest, but this has yet to be proven. If it is hard evidence you are looking for, the bio-blitz can be found in each section camp Nature Center or you can discuss acreage with the property manager. I’m definitely not saying there should not be a section on Chief Owasippe; I agree with you there. That though, has little to do with your addition of a message board link in promotion of your own site. So staying on that subject, you write “If oral history is the MAJOR source of info on Owasippe, then the BBS is a great place to get it....provided people join and share.” At last count, you have 12 registered members. The Owasippe Myspace group has nine times that amount, but that link isn’t being placed into the page. And as a whole, your entire argument is immaterial in my opinion.Seanhaneberg 03:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Country reference

I looked around at other Wikipedia artices.

Articles about cities often say In the U. S. State of Michigan, but articles about other things, (Hope College, [[Wabash College], for instance) do not qualify the city/state location with the country.

I think it would make the overall Wiki harder to create if we went in to everything associated with a city and state and added a country.

ADH 06:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Legend of Chief Owasippe

I removed this section as it is a verbatim copy from http://www.owasippe.com/viewpage.asp?id=123, and appears to violate that site's copyright. Kevin Forsyth (talk) 23:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The "Legend" had been kicking around for long enough that I'm not sure anyone can claim authorship, other than possibly the Chicago Area Council. That said, I support its removal as being unencyclopedic. - Thesquire (talk - contribs) 01:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on this right now with some Michigan historians. There is mounting evidence of a strong factual basis for the legend, originally passed to us in the late 19th century by an Indian named John Stone as told to Fred Norman of Whitehall. It probably came to Owasippe's founders originally through an 1898 article by Norman, elaborated in 1950 by his daughter Bernice. However, it is increasingly likely that Owasippe did not die on the grounds of the reservation, which is about 4 miles from the more likely site. We know that the name of the river was probably translated from Waba-sipi (Ottawa/Algonkian waba- "white" sibi/sipi "river"), but although Norman's 1898 retelling neglects the name, the name Owasippe probably did accompany the legend through other Norman retellings. It is even quite possible that Norman, as the area's foremost historian of the time, was consulted by the Chicago founders during the naming and founding, though I have no evidence of that. Pere Gagnieur's interpretation of the etymology of Awassisibi (awas- "beyond" -sibi/sipi "river"), is phonetically closer than Waba-sipi (Fr. Ouabisipi 1688) to the original name of the camp and is probably what came out of John Stone's mouth. The point below of Vogel, looking into treaties and saying it's unlikely there really was an Owasippe, muddies those waters and may be unreliable. There is also the question of whether Owasippe was Ojibwa or Potawatomi, which may have sidetracked Vogel.

Zelchenko (talk) 17:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Also possible information in a recent book, "Owasippe: The Camp," by Paul E. Meyers Jr. of Elkhart, IN, owner of Paul's Marina there. I have a call out to him.

Zelchenko (talk) 17:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

References

Useless Information

Does anyone think that discussing staff olympics for example is just completely useless? It has nothing to do with Owasippe itself, it's really just something staff does to occupy a weekend. It sure would not be in an encyclopedia. As with the "pranks" section. Seanhaneberg (talk) 20:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree - a lot of the recently added information is definitely Not Notable. Thesquire (talk - contribs) 00:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I removed a lot of fluff and tried to fix some rather poor prose. Feel free to continue touching up the article. I'd like to remove the Staffperson of the Year section as well, but we've already had that discussion. Thesquire (talk - contribs) 01:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

External links modified

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Someone took a machete to this

Look for the lost text here. --evrik ^(talk) 02:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)