Talk:Owen Hurcum

Nationality

I can see there has been some low key edit warring over Owen Hurcum's nationality, with @@Willthacheerleader18: proposing a compromise option of British, which has again been changed by an IP editor today. I personally prefer the compromise British option, which I have reverted it to, but am happy to change to something else if the consensus is on either English or Welsh instead of British. Dauwenkust (talk) 01:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

My preference would be "British" too, without conclusive proof that Hurcum sees their nationality as something else. Evidently they were born and brought up in England but are active in politics in Wales. The intro can make it clear they are active in (North) Wales. Sionk (talk) 03:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Most sources say British so I would prefer having "British" as their nationality unless more reliable sources say otherwise. EN-Jungwon 08:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

born in England and has a UK passport. Ergo British and/or English. Drpoth33 (talk) 10:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion. Either "British" or "English born Welsh" or just "Welsh" sounds OK to me. They have lived in Wales for almost all of their adult life. They have served as a Welsh mayor and that sounds quite Welsh enough to me irrespective of where they were born. What I am strongly against is introduction of any snide insinuations that Hurcum is an outsider, an intruder, an opportunist or a johnny-come-lately. Whatever is decided here needs to be neutral and without either intentional or unintentional negative connotations. DanielRigal (talk) 18:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The reverted edit was rightly reverted, but the "Welsh" label now given was only added in May, along with a reference that just quotes them as saying you are Welsh if you feel Welsh. But is Hurcum a reliable source on what constitutes nationality? We don't need to debate the assertion - just note that the source does not reliably tell us anything here. Sources tend to treat them as British and per MOS:ETHNICITY, note a,

Decisions on which label to use should be determined through discussions and consensus. The label must not be changed arbitrarily. To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by.

The discussion here notes that sources generally call them British, and even the cited source does not show that they call themself Welsh. There should be no negative connotations, this is very much agreed, but British implies no such connotations. I would suggest avoiding "English born" because that could be understood negatively. To support "Welsh" we need much better sourcing. So, in short, British will do here. I count 6 editors (myself included) who will accept British. Some prefer it, none oppose it. Per the Condorcet criterion, British has consensus.Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Name

Hurcum's current preferred name is "Owen Exie Hurcum", preferring both "Owen" and "Exie" with equal weight. The title of the article should reflect that. I initiated a move from "Owen J Hurcum" to "Owen Exie J Hurcum", but it has since been undone (moved to "Owen Hurcum"). Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity the primary name used for a transgender or nonbinary person should be the current name they use and identify with. I'm moving it back. Jeeibleh (talk) 18:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I boldly reverted it as a WP:RMUM, as the edit summary didn't mention this, missed this section opening, and it was reverted by @Sionk earlier. Reading MOS:GIDINFO it specifically mentions and gives examples of article leads not specifically titles, so unsure if it applies, and whether it overrides COMMONNAME relating to titles. However the RMs cited in the guideline likely set a background consensus that article titles must also use their preferred name regardless of COMMONNAME, unless I read it wrong. So probably should move, nonetheless best discuss here. DankJae 20:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Considering Hurcum doesn't seem to have renounced the name Owen, it didn't seem controversial to revert the page name change. The important thing to remember in Hurcum's case, is to use the correct/preferred pronouns. Sionk (talk) 14:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hurcum has not renounced the name Owen, but "Owen" is not their name. "Owen Exie" is. There is no reason to prefer "Owen" over "Exie" for the name of the wiki page except for the fact that Owen is their birth name--a fact that is frankly irrelevant. It's so easy to use the names for trans people that they prefer. Jeeibleh (talk) 04:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The reason for preferring "Owen" on Wikipedia is because they used this name when they were notable, not because it may be their birth name. Sionk (talk) 10:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, which means that it should go in the body of the article. But my point remains that they currently use the name Owen Exie, so that should be the primary name of the article.

Directly from the beginning of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity: "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise." Jeeibleh (talk) 19:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Even the direct tweet you have cited says "But I won't be losing Owen. I still like and use that name. So I'll be Owen Exie J Hurcum, and either name is fine to use" Sionk (talk) 00:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Either name is fine to use. Which means that both "Owen" and "Exie" are their names. "Owen" alone is a name, but not the name. it is transparently obvious to me that "Owen Exie" is their "most recent expressed self-identification". There is no reason to prefer Owen over Exie for the title of this article (you did mention preferring "Owen" because that's the name they used when they were notable, but I feel that has no bearing on the title of the article, as per the style guide.) Jeeibleh (talk) 05:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused on the opposition to the double-barreled name. It's quite common in other biographical Wikipedia articles to include a middle name/compound name if that's how the person in question presents themselves-- see Stevie Ray Vaughan, for example. He hasn't "rejected" the name Stevie, but the official name he expressly prefers and uses is specifically Stevie Ray Vaughan. The article Owen Hurcum seems to me as inaccurate and incomplete as a Stevie Vaughan would be. Misstarrare (talk) 07:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

"Stevie Ray Vaughan" is likely used as it's the WP:COMMONNAME not necessarily because Vaughan wants it. (per the sources, all having "Ray") Hurcum's change is much more recent, unlikely as common for now. Additionally, they would likely continue to be referred to by the name they used when they were more notable as mayor.

Should sources regularly use Evie in their name, then I guess the opposition argument is voided, although there are less sources now to compare, so may not overall be as common. DankJae 23:20, 21 June 2024 (UTC)