Talk:Oxford High School shooting/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Full names and date of births

The Oakland County Jail has information about the perpetrators. Since the information is public I think it should be published.

Ethan Robert Crumbley (born April 28, 2006) Jennifer Lynn Crumbley (born April 1, 1978) James Robert Crumbley (born July 25, 1976)

Candolopee (talk) 11:33, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Please see WP:DOB. WWGB (talk) 11:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

It’s excessive. Who cares when they were born? Bingobunnybaby (talk) 20:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Specific cases in the "Copycat threats and arrests" section

Should the "Copycat threats and arrests" section include paragraphs on specific cases and trials regarding copycat threats, as depicted here? Love of Corey (talk) 01:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed section has far too much detail. A sentence or two to report there were multiple "threats" is sufficient. WWGB (talk) 04:31, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) Comment: How often each of these incidents were reported to be copycats of the Oxford High School shooting by reliable sources. MarioGom (talk) 13:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: I know that at least there was one incident that reported a note being found in the bathroom referencing the shooting and a teacher was suspended for discussing the incident and telling students that Crumbley should have pulled the fire alarm for more casualties. I had previously altered the removed section to include the general statistics per each area to show the increase in alerts and reports of potential shootings numerically. I think that would be beneficial more then just the two paragraphs shown currently. Leaky.Solar (talk) 14:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Multiple times since the 2nd with some being quotes and some being from the articles themselves. Examples: The Detroit News, MLive, Detroit Free Press. The Register Guard, USA Today, PBS, Michigan Radio (NPR), ABC News, Washington Post, CNN, LA Times, Forbes. If we need better sourcing, it should be easy to find them. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes, I believe the section should be restored. The section has expanded in light of increasing incidents and threats at other schools. These are false copycat threats in the majority of cases and sadly it isn't an isolated event. If there are concerns that the section is too long or will become too long, then we should be discussing splitting the article instead of removing content. The only things I do not want to do without discussion is naming those who are accused and to avoid using sources (when possible) that name those accused. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

  I have thought about it and I feel that I could have explained better why these threats should be included. These threats have occurred after the Oxford shooting. Some of these threats directly mention the Oxford shooting. We have a number of generally reliable source with a national focus that have reported that these threats are indirectly related to the shooting. We also have authorities who are making similar statements. There have been a significant number of arrests and charges. (For those who are unaware, there have been approximately 100 students in Michigan who are facing charges at this time.) I do believe this information is suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:49, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

• It’s excessive. It adds no credible information to the article. A simple statement about copycat threats resulting in the aftermath would be sufficient enough in the AFTERMATH section. Bingobunnybaby (talk) 20:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Love of Corey (talk) 03:05, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
• Yes but a much more summarised version. LondonIP (talk) 20:42, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
• Yes for much of the same reasons as my previous comment. - I believe a more summarized version of the generalized statistics of how many students were charged afterwards would be best, as the first paragraph ends with the claim that all accountable students would be charged with false reporting and then jumps to the December spike. Instead of highlighting the specific cases maybe only include the amount of students charged and maybe a case where the school shooting was brought up - ie the teacher being suspended.Leaky.Solar (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose – 2 of the 3 yes !votes so far support some additional details but suggest converting it to a much more concise version. That's where I'm at, but I think weighing in as "Opposed" is more appropriate, as we do not want to retain the proposed paragraphs as they were asked in the RfC description. The length of this section grows to 540 words if the proposed text is kept, which is roughly 1/7 of the entire article. That is WP:UNDUE. A more appropriate length would be 300 words or less (1/10th of the article). Pick the most notable examples and summarize the rest in 1-2 sentences. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

time of shooting

Please change 12:50 to 12:51 p.m. [1] and change 12:55 p.m. to 12:56 p.m. [2] 73.167.238.120 (talk) 23:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

12:51 was when police first received 9-1-1 calls. We don't know if the shooting occurred seconds before then or minutes before then. 12:50 is just an approximation. Love of Corey (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

If 12:51 p.m. was when the police first received calls, then 12:51 p.m. would also be when the shooting started. This excerpt is from one of the sources above. "About 12:51 p.m., Ethan emerges from a bathroom with the gun his father bought four days before. He fires at students in the hallway, killing four and wounding six students and one teacher." Here is an excerpt from another source above. "Officials say the suspect surrendered five minutes after police were called when officers confronted the teenager in a school corridor." Here is another source I found. This text is one of the bullet points: "At 12:51 p.m., the shooting starts in the school" [3] 73.167.238.120 (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This page is currently describing a current event. As of this edit, the event only happened 8 days ago. Per the relevant template, information may change rapidly and stories immediately following it may be unreliable. Because of these reasons, I don't see this as an uncontroversial edit, and thus I would say consensus is required before making the change - which edit requests are not appropriate for. Other editors are free to disagree with this analysis and move forward with the request, as always. —Sirdog (talk) 20:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Has enough time passed for the edit request above to be granted? Please see the sources that are included. 12:51 p.m. is in the body of the article. Thank you! 161.77.227.47 (talk) 23:49, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the only thing for sure is that the shooting started sometime between 12:48pm and 12:52pm. ClickOnDetroit/WDIV and WZZM do agree with 12:51pm. But other sources don't seem to. CNN says, "Just before 12:51 p.m., Crumbley could be seen with a backpack, then a minute or two later he exited the bathroom without the backpack but with a gun in hand." While USA Today says that the lockdown started prior to 12:50 and calls came in at 12:51.

Perhaps the best solution is to make a note that sources do not agree on the exact time and what they say. For example, this edit from another article, uses the format "[Person] stated that the [event] ended at [time], though [Other sources] have provided various times between [time] and [time]." --Super Goku V (talk) 01:57, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I've implemented the suggested changes. Unfortunately, I do not have a USA Today subscription, so I was unable to access that article and use its information. Love of Corey (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done Amortias (T)(C) 17:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Please change CNN reported that, according to a prosecutor, the suspect, Ethan Crumbley, was seen with a backpack before 12:51, "then a minute or two later he exited [a] bathroom without the backpack but with a gun in hand" to CNN reported that, "Just before 12:51 p.m., Crumbley could be seen with a backpack, then a minute or two later he exited the bathroom without the backpack but with a gun in hand, prosecutor Keast said at the arraignment Wednesday." There is more to the sentence and there are grammar mistakes in how the quote is written, [a] as opposed to the, and the period outside the quotation marks instead of inside the quotation marks. 73.167.238.120 (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: doesn't seem like an improvement. ––FormalDude talk 17:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

The grammar should be correct though. That sounds like an improvement to me. Also, please change 12:51 to 12:51 p.m. There is uncertainty over the beginning of the shooting, so p.m. should be included at the beginning of the time period and at the end of the time period. Thanks! 73.167.238.120 (talk) 18:24, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: What you're suggesting is a wording preference, not a grammar correction. And per MOS:TIME, we shouldn't mention am/pm when it's already been specified prior. ––FormalDude talk 18:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

To the IP: you were already told this before at Talk:2017 Las Vegas shooting. What you were told applies to every article. Stop it. Love of Corey (talk) 06:42, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I did not recall this discussion [4], as it happened over a year ago. Also, I had no idea a previous discussion had anything to do with my edit requests here. Please be kind and assume good faith. Even in the discussion that was referenced, there are multiple ideas about how the time period should be phrased. Thank you! 73.167.238.120 (talk) 19:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

 Note: Closing request while under discussion, per template instructions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

This request has not been fulfilled. The quotation from [5] is different than what is in the article. 75.144.185.89 (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussion is still ongoing and there does not appear to be a consensus to fulfill the edit request. --Ferien (talk) 18:42, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2022

2600:100D:B056:90F7:7C08:6E5A:D464:201F (talk) 22:56, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

His next court appearance is April 21st 2022 he is currently in the adult jail in Oakland county jail

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

punctuation

After announcing the charges against Ethan Crumbley, prosecutor Karen McDonald told reporters that her office was also considering criminal charges against Crumbley's parents, Jennifer and James, in connection to the shooting.

The sentence above has commas. Please change the sentence in the article to the sentence above. Thank you! 161.77.227.47 (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Aidan9382 _(talk) 17:43, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Perpetrator or accused?

Shouldn't he be changed to "perpetrator" in infobox given that he has pleaded guilty to all charges? CoryGlee (talk) 16:07, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Something's wrong with the map?

The marker seems to point to Denver in Colorado rather than the correct location in Michigan. 2.123.194.171 (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I just saw that too, but I can’t fix it right now. I’ll see if I can tweak something later, but if anyone else can fix it, please do. TheXug (talk) 15:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Those coords were accidentally introduced in this edit and only became visible when the map was recently added--it should be fixed now. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

From Florida, to Washington State, and to Michigan (The life of the Crumbleys)

I have an edit request on the suspect. --- Just last year, Jacksonville, Florida's independent station WJXT-TV reported on News4Jax's I-TEAM that Crumbley's parents originate from Atlantic Beach, Florida, just outside Jacksonville. And Jacksonville is where Ethan Crumbley was born back on April 28, 2006. Both of Crumbley's parents do have arrest records in Jacksonville, Florida beforehand, with his father James dating as early as 1995 (a year after he finished Fletcher High School) and his mother Jennifer as early as 2003. But nearly half a decade after Ethan was born, they both began working in business development and marketing before moving to Washington State for a time, and then later to Michigan sometime around 2015.

Should we add some of the information, like Ethan's DOB and where he lived, and maybe on his family's arrest records? Because adding a lot of his family's information can get a WP:BLP violation.

Here's the story: https://www.news4jax.com/i-team/2021/12/02/i-team-suspected-michigan-school-shooters-parents-have-lived-worked-were-arrested-in-jacksonville/ ImDeadAsADoornail (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Please do not open an edit request just to start a discussion; establish what changes should be made, and then open a specific request. Actualcpscm (talk) 22:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2023

Hi I want the edit for the Motive for the deadly Oxford attack to be due to Bullying according to court documents that he shot up the school due to him being motivated by bullying. 74.67.178.97 (talk) 23:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 23:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2023

Under 'Peretrator', 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence: Change: "Crumbley was born in Atlantic Beach, Florida, 15 miles (20 km) west of Jacksonville," to "Crumbley was born in Atlantic Beach, Florida, 15 miles (20 km) east of Jacksonville," (note: emphasis added to highlight the change for the editor. Final text should not be bold) 2001:18E8:2:106C:F000:0:0:577 (talk) 15:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Why add date to the title unlike columbine or stoneman? DeadlyRagDoll (talk) 18:34, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

syntax

Multiple police stations and school districts issued statements about the threats and actions that would be taken against the individuals who made them.

Change a single sentence to the sentence above. 73.167.238.120 (talk) 23:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The person who loves reading (talk) 23:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Multiple police stations and school districts issued statements about the threats and actions that would be taken against individuals who make them.

Change the second sentence to the first sentence. 73.167.238.120 (talk) 00:56, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The person who loves reading (talk) 00:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I am requesting grammar changes, so I am unsure what reliable sources are needed. 73.167.238.120 (talk) 01:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. The person who loves reading (talk) 01:32, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about that. The person who loves reading (talk) 01:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you very much! Happy editing! The person who loves reading (talk) 01:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

There is also a request that the word "the" come before the word "individuals." 73.167.238.120 (talk) 14:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thanks! The person who loves reading (talk) 14:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Victims

Myre did NOT attempt to stop gunman. Sheriff Mike Bouchard clarified that. 2600:6C48:437F:5D73:994F:28E:9176:3C48 (talk) 03:11, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Shooter

shooter is requesting life without parole be dropped 2600:6C48:437F:5D73:994F:28E:9176:3C48 (talk) 03:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

This Wiki is inaccurate and unfortunately won't allow updates

for one, Tate Myer according to testimony and video evidence DID NOT attempt to stop shooter, he rounded a corner and took a bullet unbeknownst it was coming.. 68.42.110.4 (talk) 18:14, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Source? WWGB (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Terrorism

Is it necessary for the first sentence in the article to describe the incident as a "terrorist mass shooting"? Regardless of the conviction this is not what anyone would consider an act of terrorism, and if it is, almost every other school shooting would meet this criteria. Swinub (talk) 11:22, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

It's in a very weird position because I think Michigan is the only jurisdiction that charges things like this as terrorism. It's factually true but really, really misleading. Not sure what to do here. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Parents' careers

Jennifer Crumbley is a realtor and James Crumbley is a technology salesman. The page needs to be updated to reflect that. Here's a link to an article.

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/ethan-crumbley-parents-manslaughter-charge-b1969511.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:CC4:20F0:F995:186C:A03C:4BCF (talk) 05:53, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

---

2021 Oxford High School shooting → Oxford High School shooting – There are no other shootings at any school named “Oxford High School” and having 2021 at the start of it is unnecessary and just makes it harder to find. Additionally, the edit history for the page shows that user “Love of Corey” moved it on 23 February 2023 to the current title without a requested move. MountainDew20 (talk) 08:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

No preference - Given the whole LoC debacle. The main policies for this would potentially be WP:NCWWW, WP:NOYEAR, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRITERIA, and WP:SOCK. If there are sources that don't immediately introduce the year, then that is support for the original. Additionally, the move could potentially could be reversed anyways as addressing vandalism due to being part of LoC's edits. Other than that, either title works. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. My very best wishes (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support even though Oxford is the city in England and Oxford High School is a DAB it doesn't appear there are any other shootings with this name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support It can't be confused with any other. --Brunnaiz (talk) 22:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support No other Oxford High School shooting articles exist so the year is unnecessary. Some1 (talk) 23:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inaccurate information

This was not the deadliest school shooting at the time. Check the facts of the Parkland, FL shooting. 17 people died and 17 were injured. 2601:19C:4A02:D66F:ECBA:A6AD:91A9:6E47 (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Under Victims:

"At the time, this incident was the deadliest school shooting in the United States since the 2018 Santa Fe High School shooting.[42]"

This is inaccurate. 2603:9000:A0F0:1EB0:44C2:B120:7DFC:5770 (talk) 08:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The shooting in Santa Fe took place after the Parkland shooting, and because the Santa Fe shooting was deadlier than this one it would be inaccurate to say this shooting was the deadliest since the one in Parkland. XeCyranium (talk) 01:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this phrase can be understood incorrectly and probably just undue in the para about the victims.My very best wishes (talk) 21:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

It likely should be reworded and moved rather than axed entirely. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

1st sentence:

"On November 30, 2021, a mass shooting occurred at Oxford High School in the Detroit exurb of Oxford Township, Michigan, United States."

Imho, School shooting is more appropiate than mass shooting. Search'n'write (talk) 13:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)