Talk:Oyster Bay History Walk

Expand article here, redirect from some others

It was suggested by User:Tim Ross at User talk:Inoysterbay#Oyster Bay History Walk that this article be expanded "...to include the most interesting or important details from the individual tracks of the sound recording that is extensively quoted in your articles (rather than quoting large sections in their entirety)? This would have the advantage of placing the material in a single place, and would avoid the need to show notability for whatever is at each location. This would probably make for a rather long article, but it would place everything into a cohesive view of the historical area. If all or some of the existing individual articles are repetitive of what goes into the main article, they could easily be changed into redirects, which would automatically take a reader interested in only one site to that paragraph in the article."

I generally agree with the sentiment of that. For any sites listed that are clearly individually significant, and for which there is more material than is appropriate to include in this overview article, those can be developed further as separate articless. But for shorter ones, those can be converted to redirects to here. Let's do it! doncram (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Excellent suggestion, again I'm happy to help, you say 'Let's do it!' How should we move things forward?--Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 20:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Great. Well, please develop any of the short subsections that i have just set up, and let's see how it starts to shape out. I started one subsection on Fleet's Hall, by exerpting some material from its current separate article. Depending on how this development goes, we could discuss, later, whether some of the articles should be converted to redirects. It may not be clear for a while how long these subsections will be, hence it will be unclear whether their corresponding articles should stay (to hold additional info) or be converted to redirects to here. Let's just work on the positive building here for now, i suggest. doncram (talk) 20:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look as you suggest, certainly Oyster Bay High School should stay as an article in its own right as secondary schools are generally considered notable in themselves. Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 20:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Paste and Beeswaxcandle for developing somewhat. I noticed User:DoriSmith prodded two of the related articles (on Captain Kidd and Typhoid Mary), and asked that we be given a chance here to develop this list-article first to cover material, before removing or discussing removal of the linked pages. I do think both the Captain Kidd and Typhoid Mary stories are legitimately related in here, and should be covered in some good way here. Hopefully DoriSmith might join in helping here. doncram (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the concept of moving the important information from the subtopics into this article; however, I disagree that the next step is to always redirect the subtopic articles here. For instance, I find it unlikely that someone is going to search for "Typhoid Mary in Oyster Bay" versus Typhoid Mary, and on the bizarre chance they do, they should be redirected to Mary Mallon, not Oyster Bay History Walk. Ditto for "Captain Kidd in Oyster Bay", Captain Kidd, and William Kidd.

Once Beeswaxcandle added the William Kidd info and the Mary Mallon info to the Oyster Bay History Walk article (I didn't want any content to be lost, of course), I figured that it was time to go on to the next step—which is why I prod'd the two.

Doncram wants to hold off on the prods, and that's fine with me. The impression I have right now, though, is that we don't know if Inoysterbay is coming back, and as such, we're stuck until he returns or we decide to choose to just move on without him. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 05:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Both of these articles had already been PRODed and had the PROD challenged. This means that under the normal protocols we can't re-PROD them. I suggest therefore that we hold off on the small articles until we've got this larger one sorted and then we do a group AfD of the ones with no or only minor notability. That will keep all the deletion discussion in one place and make the process a lot cleaner. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 07:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• This is looking really good, how are you going to determine which of the original articles stay and which go, some definitely are worth their own articles but some as we know are not?--Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 07:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it is better to develop this list-article and be clear, with some consensus, that it is stable and okay, first. I assume that Inoysterbay and me and others concerned would then be okay with replacing several of them with redirects, and I agree with DoriSmith that it will probably be appropriate to delete some of them altogether. I think that our work on this list-article and the related History of Oyster Bay articles can proceed and make those decisions obvious, eventually. But perhaps it helps to state some that are obvious already. Of the keep-as-separate-articles type, I count at least 10: the high school; all the NRHP-listed ones (train station, train turntable, Moore's Building, post office); the separate museums (WaterFront Center and Raynham Hall Museum). Wilson House, the First Presbyterian Church of Oyster Bay, and the Christ Church of Oyster Bay also look pretty clearly notable by Wikipedia standards. Currently it is not obvious to me whether Stoddard House and the Oyster Bay Public Library should be kept as separate articles or converted to redirects (I lean towards redirect for first and keep separate for latter); it depends in part how we as editors choose to develop this list-article, that is whether we choose to include a lot or only very little on each of the sites. Otherwise I am not familiar enough with the material to make judgments yet. It is clear that Inoysterbay provided a whole lot of material all at once, and we should be grateful to have so much to work with. doncram (talk) 07:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Stoddard House

Argh, I thot the article was not going to be deleted, but it has now been deleted. I had copied in the photo but nothing else. Is there an admin present who can retrieve the article, perhaps paste it all in here, so that we can draw from it? I hope no more are AfD'd until we get to complete this Walk article. doncram (talk) 13:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Upon request, the closing administrator User:Fritzpoll restored the history of the Stoddard House article, although leaving it as a protected redirect to Oyster Bay History Walk. (Thanks, Fritzpoll!) So, in this last substantive version, we have access to the previous text for writing the subsection here. doncram (talk) 23:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Captain Kidd in Oyster Bay

How describe the role / presence / visit of Captain Kidd in this history walk article? I am not clear on what specific site in Oyster Bay, if any, anchors the history walk's audio tour point about Kidd. The separate article Captain Kidd in Oyster Bay is not clear on the location in a walking tour. Is this a topic which can be covered more easily in a more general History of Oyster Bay article, and less easily here? It seems important to know what hook is used to attach Kidd to a specific place along the walking tour. Is the audio or text of the audio tour available to check on this point? doncram (talk) 07:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

The audio text is in this diff [1]. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Typhoid Mary in Oyster Bay

As with the Kidd story, I think it is good to tell a story about Typhoid Mary / Mary Mallon. What is the specific location relevant, though. The Typhoid Mary in Oyster Bay article is not specific about a location on the route of the walking tour or otherwise. It is mentioned there is a house owned by one of the Townsends, rented to the Warrens, where she worked as a cook. Would I be correct to assume the house is gone, but the tour point is the former location of the house? We should get to know where is that house or other location focus. Is it available in the audio tour? I am wishing we had a map of the route of the tour, with the locations marked. doncram (talk) 07:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Locations and a map

I've just explored the Oyster Bay MSA website a bit more. There's a pdf map and address details for the stations around the walk via the links on [2]. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, i guess the map there is the link that Inoysterbay just added to the article. With those locations, we can also add coordinates for each site to the list article so that a Google/LiveSearch link can be added, too. (Like the Google/LiveSearch link in NRHP list-articles, such as National Register of Historic Places listings in Nassau County, New York. There really is a lot to work with here. :) doncram (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there a painted stripe along the walkway? Like the Freedom Trail in boston has a red stripe, which has been mostly done by red bricks now. And, are there plaques or other markings for the sites themselves? Browsing on "heritage walk" in Google, I came across several other history walkways, including one in Pennsylvania where there is a historical plaque / marker for each stop. doncram (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Library material

The AfD for the library article was closed just now with decision to merge, with intended target stated to be the Oyster Bay article. Some of it should be merged to here too. (The effect of the AfD may be, oddly, to cause there to be more, spread out, coverage of the library in wikipedia, rather than having it covered mostly in one, separate article. And for consistency, someone oughta start reviewing others in Category:Public libraries in New York.) I think there is valid historical material in the article, probably there is more history documented about this site, not a registered historic place, than there is for many NRHP-listed properties elsewhere in the country. I wonder why it is not covered in the Oyster Bay Landmark program. Anyhow, section here needs writing, and Oyster Bay article also to be considered. doncram (talk) 18:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

OTRS ticketing / material from the tour

Some material in this article has been edited from other articles which themselves draw heavily from the history walk audio tour. For example, sentences now in the Wilson House section. Is it appropriate to copy the OTRS ticket posted at Talk:Wilson House (Oyster Bay, New York), to here? Not sure if all the separate articles were covered by one or multiple OTRS tickets. doncram (talk) 19:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I've checked with Moonriddengirl and she says (paraphrased) that we can copy the OTRS ticket to the talk page of whichever articles we have that material on. The separate articles were all covered by the one ticket. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 22:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Advert tag applied, response

Further to the above, it's not the content of the article that bothers me. It's more the way it is laid out. It reads as though someone has recently made up this walk and wants to use the article to publicise it. It doesn't read like something that is already well-known, such as (for want of a better example) the Pennine Way. But I could be wrong, maybe it is well-known, in which case the introduction should say so. You should also consider whether the sites mentioned in the walk need to be treated in detail when they already have their own individual articles - this seems to me like duplication. Deb (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I removed the advert tag on the Oyster Bay History Walk page and would like to explain why. The approach taken to have brief blurbs that lead to full articles was decided on by consensus from multiple editors, and is documented in the articles discussion page. Secondly, the assertion that "someone has recently made up this walk" is inaccurate. It was the result of work by a non-profit organization and several experts they commissioned to write the text for the walk and create professionally produced audio tracks. This process too is well documented in the Origins and Development section for the walk. Lastly, the comment about being "well-known" must be taken with a grain of salt. The Oyster Bay History Walk documents several little-known buildings in a small town, and cannot be compared with an example like the Pennine Way that you described. The Pennine Way is a scenic trail across open country connecting many sites together, whereas the Oyster Bay History Walk is a short walking path in a small town and has more similarities with Boston's Freedom Trail and the Baltimore Heritage Walk (again as described in the Other section of the article which I'd urge you to read).

I've also copied this thread to the Oyster Bay History Walk discussion page. Where all further discussion should occur.

Inoysterbay (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Editing needed to avoid advert appearance

The article was tagged by {{advert}} which displays "This article is written like an advertisement. Please help rewrite this article from a neutral point of view...." I don't like an article that i have worked on to get tagged, but some tag is fair enough, because I agree that the article needs further rewriting. In places the language in the article is still booster-like and non-encyclopedic, probably in places where the language is still as directly taken from the tour text. Copy-editing is needed i agree, so let's just work on it.

For example, "rich history" in 1st paragraph, should perhaps be "recorded history" or reword to avoid the adjective. Or, it is the written judgment of a historian (not us) that Oyster Bay has a rich history, use a quote so it is not our judgment. If want to quote the tour text which was written by a historian, then could possibly do that, but need to make it an explicit quote attributed to named historian, rather than just including the language as if the wording is written by wikipedia editors.

For example, copyediting needed in 2nd paragraph:

Many of the sites included on this tour are also listed on the National Register of Historic Places, recognizing their national signficance. These include the Moore's Building where Theodore Roosevelt had his executive offices as U.S. President, the Oyster Bay Long Island Railroad Station and Turntable that Theodore Roosevelt used and which provided a direct connection to New York City, and the WPA-era U.S. Post Office which later honored Theodore Roosevelt and other people influential in the founding of Oyster Bay from the Colonial era and forward.

How many? Say "Several of the sites" or "Four sites" if there are 4. Wikilink the RR station, the turntable, the P.O. Question: what is meant by the P.O. honoring T.R. and other people, i don't know what that refers to, or how it is relevant, unless its association with T.R. and others is why the P.O. was NRHP-listed (instead of, or in addition to, it being listed for its architecture). Clarify.

For example, the 3rd paragraph "Historian John Hammond has..." should perhaps all be put in a footnote. The article is about the history tour, not the historian, and this seems like trying to share credit which is good in intent, but should be implemented differently (through footnotes crediting John Hammond in some places). And other books may be referred to in a "See also" or "External links" section at the end. But in paragraph 3, this seems promotional or self-congratulatory or something, not encyclopedic.

We could take a pass or 2 copy-editing throughout, and then remove the advert tag when it is all clearly better. Then also list this article at wp:PR to get the attention of good, uninvolved copy-editors. doncram (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I broadly agree with this assessment. Because I actually like the article in many ways, I am hesitating about the underlying question in my mind, which is - does this article in fact meet the notability guidelines? The fact that Oyster Bay is a relatively small town would seem to make the comparison with the Boston and Baltimore walks inappropriate. There are many such walks in towns in the UK which I would not dream of creating a wikipedia article on, because it would smack of an attempt to attract tourism to those places. On the other hand, there are many towns in the UK that have a similar number of historic buildings within a short distance, but perhaps in the USA it is so unusual as to be notable in itself. Not being familiar with the place, I wouldn't like to make a judgement on this. Deb (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments Deb. The notability issue was discussed before, and generally it was felt this walk was notable for a number of reasons: association with President Theodore Roosevelt, significance of many buildings dating from the Colonial era, and the fact that the walk has existed since 2004 and has gotten attention in several published sources. This is not merely a lossely curated or uncurated collection of historic buildings. An active effort has been made to bring material together on these building and make it available for people to educate, and to engender deeper sense of connection with this place. As for your note on tourism, the situtation in the US may be slightly different than the UK. We do not view the prospect of tourism and people wanting to come and visit as something that is unfavorable. Having said that, the hope is that people who do visit are sensitive and aware of the historic signficance of the area they are visiting. Tourism has the potential to be a very positive tool to assist with regeneration of historic areas, and that was part of the inspiration of this tour as well - to assist in the revitalization of downtown Oyster Bay. The logic goes that the more people who visit, the greater commercial activity is possible, which gives uses to many of these historic buildings and allows them to continue to exist now and well into the future. Having said that, I appreciate your willingness to not make a judgment on this. As such I've removed the advert tag. If anyone wishes to have further discussion on this topic, let me recommend doing so on this discussion page or making edits that adjust the tone of the article itself as needed. Thanks again. Inoysterbay (talk) 14:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with a lot of what Inoysterbay says here (for example, there is no notability exemption for everything having anything remotely to do with Teddy Roosevelt), and I am re-adding the advert tag. The list-article still needs work to remove flowery, promotional language. After devoting a good amount of time to supporting this list-article and related articles, AfDs and other discussions, I am getting burnt out. Frankly I am disappointed about another matter with Inoysterbay, not directly related to this article, which is affecting my willingness to continue to try to assist here. It may be appropriate to bring this list-article and several related articles back to AfD again. The notability of this history walk article and related others is not clear. The standards for what is historic and notable in the U.S. are not different from applies in the U.K. And within the United States, Oyster Bay is just one small village/town, and the coverage of this history walk does seem promotional and way out of line with any other history walk coverage. I myself have tried to start up development of some coverage about the larger, much more significant Baltimore one. doncram (talk) 17:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Copy-editing

I've started do the major copy-edit. It includes re-writing to remove advert type prose, inserting wikilinks where appropriate, and copying and adjusting text from the sub-articles. If the sub-article covers a NRHP site then I've copied very little text. However, for the other sub-articles I'm taking across all the information. It was never the intention to leave all the sub-articles in Wikipedia, despite what Inoysterbay says above. Once I've completed it, I would appreciate someone else going through and making sure that I haven't used New Zealand English anywhere. As of writing this note I've completed up to the Bandstand. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks good to me. It would help to be explicit about which subarticles you are assessing should be deleted, once covered, both to explain why you include so much about those ones in particular and to allow us to come towards consensus about deleting those articles. Of those covered so far, I interpret your editing to suggest that the separate Bank of Oyster Bay and Derby-Hall Bandstand will no longer be needed as separate articles. I am inclined to agree with that, given how complete the coverage of them is, in this list-article. doncram (talk) 17:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• I would agree that many if not all the sub articles should go, Earle-Wightman House as an example is not suitable for its own article. --Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 17:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You're not seriously suggesting you think all the sub-articles should be deleted, I hope. If so, that undermines your credibility in suggesting any particular one should go. About the Earle-Wightman House one, I am not sure. I think it at least needs to be copy-edited and for its referencing to be improved. It, this list-article, and probably almost all of the other subarticles need better referencing to the audio tour, meaning an appropriate in-line citation needs to be inserted for every substantial assertion whose source is the audio tour. So far, the OTRS ticketing has removed the issue of copyright infringement, but adequate sourcing to it / avoidance of the appearance of plagiarism from it is not yet addressed. (See wp:plagiarism for a draft wikipedia guideline on the topic, under a lot of discussion at wt:plagiarism. ) Without the Earle-Wightman article being improved in these respects, it is seriously lacking, yes. But I'd be interested to see if Inoysterbay could improve that article, and to see what Beeswaxcandle recommends in the course of going through and copyediting here. doncram (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• • Not at all suggesting all should go merely that several are not suitable for their own articles, I was under the impression that this was the whole purpose of the exercise?Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 09:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. I've done the Post Office, the two Railroad and the WaterFront Center sections. I did the Captain Kidd section a while back. I've skipped the TR Memorial Park for the time being. I need to give it a lot more thought before tackling it. I'm not convinced that it needs a separate article, but am open to arguments to keep it. I won't know which sub-articles I think should go until I've done. But, yes, so far the Bank and the Bandstand. By the way, does anyone have details of the third cannon at the Bandstand? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• Is someone intending to redirect the bandstand and bank articles to the main walk article as suggested above? Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 21:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Update - Done another three sections - Baptist Church, Octagon Hotel and The Printery. Only 16 to go. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You're doing a yeoman's job. :) Looks good to me. doncram (talk) 03:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Update - Done the four buildings - Raynham Hall, Seely/Wright House, Ludlam Building & Snouders Drugstore. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Update - Hood Church, St Paul's Church and Earle-Wightman House done. Only 9 to go. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Theodore Roosevelt Memorial Park article

Also the Theodore Roosevelt Memorial Park article was just reduced substantially by an IP editor taking issue with the audio tour material in it, and/or with overlap of material there and here (i think here, rather than at a different Oyster Bay page). I commented at its talk page. doncram (talk) 03:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)