Talk:P.G. O'Dea

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issue resolved — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kokatoni (talk • contribs) 08:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Commons?

The use of references, sources and random files uploaded to Commons causes several issues. Not least:

• Origin/authenticity. While subject to Commons' own rules and norms, anyone can upload anything to Commons. Including altered or generated images. Original sourcing should be used. So that editors and readers can verify the authenticity/source/reliability of references. Files uploaded to Commons should be the exception. Not the norm.
• Integrity/continuity. In addition to (potentially) being replaced/changed by other Commons contributors, several of the files uploaded to Commons are (already) proposed for deletion. As they do not appear to be Commons-eligible. This also causes WP:VER issues.
• Verification/SYNTH. In order, for example, to support the statement that "O'Dea never sought fame and initially wrote under the pseudonym Morgan Brookes" we are relying solely upon snapshots of a script cover and small ad. This is classic WP:SYNTH. If all we have to rely upon for this statement is a script cover and a classified ad (and the reader/editor has to come to her own conclusion about what this might mean), then we probably shouldn't be making the statement at all. As per WP:SYNTH, statements should be supported by statements explicitly made in the sources. Not inferred/implied/guessed.

Ideally these issues would be addressed. Guliolopez (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The statement about the pseudonym 'Morgan Brookes' does not rely solely on the script cover and classified ad, but is supported by a citation from the Westmeath Independent newspaper (1946). Perhaps the proceeding two citations are superfluous? Kokatoni (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Kokatoni (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The reference to the poster has now been replaced Kokatoni (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kokatoni (talk • contribs) 18:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I’d like to clarify some information regarding the template that suggests there are "many" citations uploaded to Commons that are of indeterminate source.

After reviewing the citations in the article:

Out of 26 citations, only one relies solely on a Commons link, which I can review further if necessary. All other sources are reliable newspaper citations, with the Commons links provided simply to offer readers visual access to the original sources. These links can be removed from the citations if needed.  Additionally, the advertising poster citation has been removed and replaced with a verifiable newspaper source.

I believe the template might no longer be necessary, given that the citations predominantly refer to reliable sources (newspapers, etc.), with the Commons links being supplementary, not the primary references.  Could someone please review this and consider removing the template if appropriate? Kokatoni (talk) 10:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I have removed the "cite check" tag. (While the reliance on snippets and primary sources, uploaded to Commons and with unclear original sourcing, is far from ideal, most of them are [now] used to support relatively uncontroversial statements). However, there are still sourcing gaps. Including, not least, a reliable/verifiable/independent source to support date and place of death. Which doesn't appear to be in any of the linked sources. Unless I'm overlooking. And something to support the (to my read) unclear editorial. About moving to Dublin causing a "[reduction in] access to his works for potential producers"? Guliolopez (talk) 11:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Guliolopez. I have added a citation for birth and death date (combined), and removed the uncited editorial about 'limited access' to his plays. Perhaps this now resolves the citation issues flagged by the banner template and it can now be removed? Kokatoni (talk) 13:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. RE:

• "removed the uncited editorial about 'limited access' to his plays". Great. Thanks.
• "added a citation for birth and death date". There's something wrong with that reference. It is dated in the future. Which is perhaps why (absent a time machine) I can't seem to find it in the Limerick Leader archive. Can you check that reference please? And, if possible, advise how you (and others) can verify it?

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 13:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, yes the date is actually correct: Even though the newspaper is dated the 21st, the print version of the newspaper is on the shelves today Kokatoni (talk) 13:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. That's unusual. Or, at least, "post-dated sources" aren't something that I've come across before. Are you confident that it meets WP:VER? (IE: that it has "been previously published in a reliable source"?). Guliolopez (talk) 14:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, 100% - the source is an article in the paper copy of the Limerick Leader dated 21st Sept 2024. I'm actually holding it in my hand right now. Kokatoni (talk) 14:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, apologies, I see your point now, and thank you for your feedback. Initially, I provided a birth registry document as a citation for P.G. O'Dea's date of birth. Although this is a direct and reliable source, it was deemed insufficient. I then updated the citation to a newspaper article which lists both his birth and death dates. However, I acknowledge the concerns about circular sourcing. P.G. O'Dea was frequently mentioned in Irish newspapers during his lifetime, but many of these sources are from the 1940s and are behind paywalls, including his obituary from 1982. Given that full biographies of O'Dea were rare during that era (he was known to be a private individual and used a pseudonym initially), detailed public records on his birth and death are limited. Will his obituary be sufficient, despite its inaccessibility to the non-subscribing reader?Kokatoni (talk) 17:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Where is the obit? Paywall or no? Guliolopez (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a paywall. Irish Independent, March 15th 1982, p.19. Unfortunately, it only includes his date of death. A second paywall obituary includes his place of death - Westmeath Independent, March 19, 1982, p.6. Kokatoni (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC).