Talk:Paco de Lucía/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 08:51, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• "He is considered by many to be one of the finest guitarists in the world..." with four references. The problem here is that "considered by many" is very subjective and tends to bring out complaints about violating WP:NPOV, even with multiple references on it. (Have a look at WP:Lamest Edit Wars#Cleo Rocos for a "good" example). A better action here I feel is to pull out individual quotes and attribute them to specific people eg: Dennis Coster, author of "Guitar Atlas, Flamenco", said that De Lucía has been "considered one of history's greatest guitarists".

Done.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:16, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'll come back to the lead after doing the rest of the article. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:10, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sorry about the delay, carrying on with the article

Early Life

• The Allmusic source doesn't have any accents on De Lucía's real name - I assume this is general ignorance of Spanish on their behalf.

Yes.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 14:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

• Regarding his choice of name change, the source mentions this is a common custom in common in Andalusia, which is worth clarifying here.

Done.

• Which source is being used to cite that he practiced up to 12 hours a day, every day from the age of 5?

[1]

• "At one point, his father took him out of school to concentrate solely on his guitar development." Can you clarify this is cited to Pohren, as per the following sentences?

Pohren p. 41 added.

• " who would learn them with relative ease" - a little bit slanted towards a fan's POV perhaps?

No, the source says that he learned them easily and embellished them which initially annoyed his brother.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Combined with natural talent, he soon excelled" is POV. If he has natural talent, a source will report it as such.

The source does support it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 14:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

• In general, I would check over this section, as it comes across as being quite critical of De Lucía's father.

Critical? It says he was very strict with his son's development as guitarists, that's about it..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:01, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

1960s

• The wording of the first paragraph is a bit repetitive - you've got multiple sentence starting with "In". See if you can put some variety in, otherwise it just reads a bit like a bland list. Not essential for GA, but if you took this paragraph to FAC in its current state, the reviewers there will probably say the same thing.

I think it's OK.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• "it [La fabulosa guitarra de Paco de Lucía] has become one of his better known pieces" needs a cite - best to find a source and quote it directly.

Removed.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

More later... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:54, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

1970s

• "his version of Mario Escudero's "El Ímpetu", a bulerías, was well received in particular" is a bit vague with respect to the source given. A better quote from it would be the reference to the Concierto de Aranjuez.

Removed well-received.

• Can we cite "Entre dos aguas" becoming arguably his best known composition"?

Done.

• The Youtube source of his 1976 appearance on Parkinson is a copyright violation, and we can't cite it. We'll need to check that the BBC or some other reliable source contains sufficient information to verify this.

You'll never get a source to verify it other than the programme itself unless I do a Schrod-John Clark-like month-long inquiry at the BBC which I think is rather unnecessary. We accept sources for what actors say in interviews or video-based sources on here in good faith, only the youtube vio link should be removed which I've done. It's perfectly acceptable to reference a reputable figure such as Parkinson from a BBC programme.

Sorry, wasn't making myself clear. I agree with what you've just written, and have seen arguments on WP:RSN to that effect. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• His 1977 marriage and children probably belongs in another "personal life" section.

Very little is known about his personal life, He's extremely private, it would be too short to have it separately.

• Which Antonio Sanchez are we referring to here?

Removed link, he doesn't have an article.

• The last quote in this section is a bit bulky - any chance we could split it up or paraphrase it a bit?

Cut, partly written in prose.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

1980s

• I'm being a div again - exactly which bit of the All you ever wanted to know about Flamenco source is citing his physical problems with keeping up with McLaughlin and Coryell.

Try this

• " this became arguably the piece most associated with the musicians" probably wants a cite.

• Not an issue but I'm surprised that I, a Floyd nut having sent several of the band's articles to GA myself, did not know of his involvement in The Hit. Povey's a good "go to" source for basic dates and facts.

That's what the source says so I think it's fine, I didn't know either.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

1990s

• "Although the sextet had declined after 1986," - is that declined in popularity or in activity?

Activity, clarified.

• He resides in Mallorca needs a cite.

All I can find is this "copyvio" of a TV documentary which is at his home in Majorca [2]. I'll reference the documentary without the vio link, that should be fine. Worth watching Rich, that's one of the finest looking women I've ever seen in my life, no kidding.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This section is incomplete, as far as I can tell. I personally saw The Guitar Trio in the 1990s as they did a sort of reunion tour. They appeared, if memory serves, at Boston's Symphony Hall. I cannot find a source for that, but the article also fails to mention that they put out a second album, just titled "The Guitar Trio" in 1996, according to Amazon and that fits approximately with the time frame I saw them. They were quite terrific, and DeLucia still was really the driving force behind the ensemble.24.61.45.53 (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Influence

• "De Lucía is widely considered..." and (subsequent paragraph) - In general, I think it's better to cite specific people's opinions (eg: "according to Billboard's David Sinclair...") rather than just broad comments. It's a bit more neutral.

In all honesty I think for somebody like Paco it doesn't reflect reality by saying that just one person says and it looks overly censored to do so. The Jimi Hendrix article should say "widely considered to be the greatest and most influential guitarist of all time" and the Paco de Lucia article should say "widely considered to be the world's premier flamenco guitarist". Honestly it isn't a fan talking, it is a fact, I could cite hundreds of sources which back up the statement and anybody who's anybody in the guitar world would not batter an eyelid at seeing that statement. I agree with the lead, but in the influence section I think you really need to the reflect how he is perceived across the flamenco world.

Oh, I get it that he's just about the most important flamenco player in living memory, and it's not violating NPOV or anything really to say that, just that I feel its better to say it by reporting other people's quotations directly. The Jazz Times comment below is a good example. Eric Clapton's comment about him being the "titanic figure in the world of flamenco guitar", highlighting his "astounding technique and inventiveness" should go up front to clearly demonstrate just how critically acclaimed this guy is. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• This Jazz Times source has quite a nice quote "Most flamenco fans can trace the music's history to either Before Paco or After Paco". I wonder if we can use that somewhere?

Nice quote, I'll add that.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Images

No copyright problems, though I do have one query about File:Paco de Lucía 4.jpg which seems to have been reused in this source without proper attribution.

Well, that's not an article issue.. Many websites steal images and text and don't attribute them..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Links

This source returns a 403 error.

Which citation number is it I can't locate it?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• This is the online (subscription only) version of Grove's Dictionary of Music - specifically "Woodall 2007" in this instance. That might be why the toolserver bot threw a wobbly over it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

GA review checklist

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

I think we're about there, so I'm happy to put this On hold. Sorry about the delays in real life. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:10, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Okay, as things stand, there are some things we could revisit later, but none of them are relevant to the GA criteria, so I'm happy to declare this as a pass and a good introduction to the world of flamenco music. Well done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)