Talk:Pakistan–Somalia relations

Non-bilateral relations, advocacy

I've removed off-topic material on immigrant communities and piracy operations, as neither are bilateral relations. This is also why the many Pakistani members of the Al-Shabaab insurgent group are also not discussed (e.g. Abu Musa Mombasa), or the Somali government's numerous anti-terrorist operations against them. Bilaterism "consists of the political, economic, or cultural relations between two sovereign states" i.e. it has to do with state-to-state dealings, not state-to-civilian or civilian-to-civilian interactions. Advocacy links and blogs -- both of which the Somalilandpress links are [1], [2] -- are also unreliable sources; especially for exceptional, WP:REDFLAG statements regarding a country's sovereignty as made here. That blog's claims/letter, purportedly from an Adviser on Consular Affairs between Foreign Affairs and Diplomatic Missions, only appears on one other advocacy website, which simply re-printed the piece from Somalilandpress [3]. Those claims are also precluded by a 2013 statement made by Pakistan's Permanent Representative to the UN Masood Khan before the United Nations Security Council which explicitly indicates Pakistan's continued support for Somalia's national government and its territorial integrity and sovereignty [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

How is any of that material off-topic? Piracy is an issue which has affected both countries, and the capture of Pakistani crewmen and vessels was something that received considerable coverage in the media. It is definitely relevant. There is no set policy on Wikipedia which restricts the scope of foreign relations article to bilateralism alone. You need to look at other foreign relations articles. All topics that pertain between Pakistan and Somalia would be considered relevant to this article. Immigration between two countries is also relevant and there is no reason why that was removed. I will have to restore some of the content for which there is not a valid rationale for removal. Mar4d (talk) 14:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, WikiProject International Relations outlines specific standards to follow for pages on bilateral relations. All pertain to state-to-state dealings. This would not include the Pakistan navy's anti-piracy operations against civilians outside of Somalia's territorial waters or Somalia's anti-terrorist operations against civilians within Somalia's borders. Per the bulleted criteria there, the only thing that's perhaps relevant here is Pakistan's membership in the United Nations Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia. Immigration is also apparently revelant, so you're right about that much. I've adjusted the text accordingly, but redacted it to reflect the fact that the overwhelming majority of Somalis in Pakistan are students. Middayexpress (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You've also taken WP:REDFLAG out of context. The Somaliland link is quoting verbatim the words of a Pakistani government official regarding interest in establishing a trade office in Islamabad. That is again, relevant. Mar4d (talk) 14:41, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The letter is several years old and was purportedly from an official within the Pakistani government. However, it only appears on or is reprinted from the Somalilandpress advocacy blog, and speaks of a trade office that was never established (here's a list of all of Pakistan's actual trade offices, from the Islamabad Chamber of Commerce [5]). That makes it WP:REDFLAG since it makes "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community". The prevailing view within the Pakistani government with regard to Somalia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is summarized in the Islamabad Declaration adopted by the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers (ICFM) [6]: "We emphasize the importance of maintaining the unity, stability and territorial integrity of Somalia[...] We urge OIC Member States to consider the possibility of providing support and assistance to the peace keeping forces in Somalia and appeal to all OIC Member States to support the reconstruction efforts in Somalia, at all levels." Middayexpress (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I've taken a look at the new version and it looks fine as a compromise. It is good to see that you've restored the deleted section on immigration and also adjusted the text to include the point on United Nations Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia. I don't think I have any other outstanding issues to raise. Mar4d (talk) 12:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Middayexpress (talk) 15:36, 13 November 2013 (UTC)