Talk:Palestine pound

Transjordan needs a source

A good source is needed that the Palestine Pound was introduced into Transjordan in 1927. Neither this article nor Jordanian dinar provide a source. My concern comes from the enabling Order in Council, namely the "Palestine Currency Order, 1927" signed by "the King's Most Excellent Majesty" in February 1927 and published in the Offical Gazette of the Government of Palestine, No. 193, on August 16. Item 9 says "This Order shall not apply to such parts of the Territory comprised in Palestine to the East of the Jordan and the Dead Sea as were defined by Order of the High Commissioner, dated the 1st day of September, 1922." It could be that some other order established the Palestine Pound in Transjordan, but anyway a good source is needed. (For the record, this Order-in-Council came into effect on November 1, 1927, see PG p679.) Zero^talk 03:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I found a number of sources saying that Transjordan also adopted the Palestine Pound in 1927. However, I also found World Monetary Units: An Historical Dictionary, Country by Country, by Howard M. Berlin, p85, which says that Transjordan kept using piastres until 1930, when it was "changed by the British authorities to the Palestine Pound". I give this source very high credence, since Berlin is the author of a book on Palestinian currency that presumably makes him highly knowledgeable on the subject. Unfortunately I have not been able to get my hands on Berlin's book "The Coins and Banknotes of Palestine Under the British Mandate, 1927–1947" which might provide more detail. If any of you can help, please do so. Zero^talk 04:48, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

And just to make life more contradictory, the 1928 report of the Palestine Currency Board, published in The Palestine Bulletin, Dec 10, 1928, says "Shortly before the introduction of the new currency in Palestine, the Transjordan Government decided to adopt it as from the date of its introduction to Palestine, i.e. 1st November, 1927." This may be a case where we need to present two options, but it would good to check Berlin's book first as he may explain the situation. Zero^talk 05:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Apparently, the Egyptian pound continued to circulate for a while (5 months) "in Palestine" after the introduction of the PP. VÁRIOS AUTORES; Rosa A. Valdivieso; International Monetary Fund (28 August 2001). The West Bank and Gaza: Economic Performance, Prospects, and Policies: Achieving Prosperity and Confronting Demographic Challenges. International Monetary Fund. pp. 134–. ISBN 978-1-58906-035-7. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Then this source implies but without any sourcing that EP was still use in TJ until 1930 Jan Gyllenbok (12 April 2018). Encyclopaedia of Historical Metrology, Weights, and Measures: Volume 3. Birkhäuser. pp. 1661–. ISBN 978-3-319-66712-6. So 1927 certainly looks good for PP per Bellin Howard M. Berlin (1 September 2015). The Coins and Banknotes of Palestine Under the British Mandate, 1927-1947. McFarland. pp. 22–. ISBN 978-1-4766-0672-9. but perhaps the EP kept going for a while in TJ? Maybe?Selfstudier (talk) 12:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

The PP became the official currency in Palestine on Nov 1, 1927, and the EP stopped being legal tender in Palestine on Mar 1, 1928. Meanwhile there was a fixed exchange rate. I'll add this to the article. For Transjordan, maybe there was a longer transitionary period, or maybe PP became legal tender a few years before becoming the official currency. I'm guessing. Very interesting how Gyllenbok overlaps the two periods. I can't see p22+ of Berlin's book; what does it say about Transjordan? Zero^talk 12:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Essentially, it says what you said above from the Bulletin "Just prior to the introduction of the new currency in Palestine, the Transjordan government decided to adopt the Palestine currency effective November 1, 1927" with a source that I can't see. It continues "This adoption was necessary as the Article 9 of the 1927 Palestine Currency Order stated 'This order shall not ..... 'as per above. That's all it has.Selfstudier (talk) 13:49, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

The 1927 British report to the LofN says that the PP "was simultaneously adopted by Trans-Jordan." Zero^talk 12:57, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, in 1927 Transjordan issued its first original postage stamps, using the Palestinian currency units. This more or less clinches the conclusion that the PP became theofficial currency in 1927. Zero^talk 13:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally the guidelines set down by the Currency Board include stuff about the denominations and design, but not about the way that "Palestine" is written in different languages. So the source of the "EY" is unclear to me. Zero^talk 07:30, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

p.11,12 This help? Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

"Rather, he (Samuel) devised an ad-hoc compromise. In a hand written note he instructed the postmaster general to use the Hebrew transliteration Palestina followed by the acronyms of the Hebrew letters ‘Aleph Yod’ for Erets Yisrael(Persoff 1973: 15; Storrs 1943: 383–4). As Sahar Huneidi has shown, British Foreign Office officials were taken by surprise by Samuel’s decision, although they authorised it in retrospect (Huneidi 2001: 122). Palestina (E.Y.)became Palestine’s official Hebrew name, and it consequently appeared on all official documents and notices." Selfstudier (talk) 13:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

In this file there is a draft Transjordanian law dated 6 Oct 1927 that states, inter alia, "The Palestine Pound coined in pursuance of the Palestine Currency Order, 1927, shall be the standard coin of Trans-Jordan". We can't use it because it is a draft and we don't know if it was modified before promulgation or when it came into effect. The attached memorandum mentions the possibility that Turkish gold coins would also be legal tender. Zero^talk 06:43, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Turkish currency

It is stated that Turkish currency circulated along with the Egyptian pound before the advent of the Palestine pound. The word "circulate" is somewhat vague, but to make things clear, Ottoman currency was not legal tender in Palestine from January 22, 1921, onwards. This was specified in a ruling of the High Commissioner in the Official Gazette No. 36. I have the original but a copy can be seen in this bulletin. I am yet to track down "Public Notice No. 73 A of 12th December 1918" but I have offline access to the "Palestine News" where it should have appeared. It was the weekly newspaper of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force of the British Army. If anyone can find it online, please let us know. I also found a 1918 guidebook published by the British Army which says that Turkish coins are legal tender but Turkish notes are not. Zero^talk 07:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The Dec 12 1918 issue of the Palestine News does not have Public Notice 73A, nor do the surrounding issues. (There is news about the spread of the Spanish Flu though.) However the Palestine News does have some useful currency information. Zero^talk 05:02, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, it seems that the Palestine News had a supplement called the Gazette; it must be there. Alas it seems to be very rare. There are also some books that collect such things but I don't appear to have access to any of them. Zero^talk 14:56, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I found this, it has OETA gazette http://findit.library.yale.edu/catalog/digcoll:2845189 Selfstudier (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

No, that's a later serial that started in July 1919. We need a 1918 source. Zero^talk 02:52, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Ah, right, the supplement with this thing? The English listing doesn't mention it, only the Hebrew one, for some reason. Looks like a visit to somehwere necessary to see them, ah well.Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I suspect that some places with the Palestine News also have the supplement but don't list it in their catalogues. For example it is hard to believe that the National Library of Israel doesn't have it. In any case, it might be easier to consult a collection like this or this or this. Zero^talk 11:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

currency symbol

The ordinances which established the Palestine currency in 1927 did not specify a mil symbol. There is a symbol ₥ used historically in some other places like the USA but I have never seen it used in a Palestinian context. Newspaper advertisements, for example, always spelt out "mils". If the symbol is put in the article, it has to be properly sourced and even then given just a mention rather than used all over the place. Articles are meant to inform readers, not to mystify them with symbols they have never seen. Zero^talk 07:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

To editor TheCurrencyGuy: I have looked in tons of places including the legislation that introduced the currency and I still can't find that mil symbol. Kindly don't put it back in unless you can provide a reliable source. And even then, use it once or twice and not everywhere. Zero^talk 13:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies, I think it may be my own biases after I saw the symbol used in conjunction with a couple of related currencies and made a leap of faith. I've just checked the issues of The Palestine Gazette available online and it appears you are, infact, correct. The Gazette also demonstrates use of "LP.". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:06, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

It seems the uses of ₥ even in relation to those currencies I mentioned (the Maltese and Cypriot pounds) were erroneous, have corrected those articles accordingly. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Bad predictions

From the Palestine Bulletin of Oct 14, 1926:

The London "Financial News" publishes an article on the new Palestinian currency, stating that the creation of the Palestine Currency Board is regarded as a definite step to the issue of a special currency for Palestine. The pound sterling will be the basis of the new coinage, and the Palestine pound will be known as "dinar." Each "dinar" will have ten shekels, each shekel will have one hundred units (milliemes).

Zero^talk 14:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

£P

"£P" was put forward as a symbol for the Palestinian pound, with a revenue stamp and a Barclay's cheque used as sources for that symbol. However, given that the two sources are (to borrow @John Maynard Friedman's words) merely "examples of use" of £P - instead of an explicit declaration that £P symbolizes the Palestinian pound - I propose that we deprecate the use of "£P" to represent the Palestinian pound. NotReallySoroka (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Copyedited and fixed diff. NotReallySoroka (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that I don't think we have a source for LP being official either, despite it being in very common use even in the Palestine Gazette. Once before I searched the Gazette for mention of an official symbol but couldn't find one. Surely it must exist. "£P" appears in newspapers as well as LP (example: Palestine Post 31 May 1938). Perhaps we can just reword the text to note that both of these symbols were used without saying that they had official sanction. Zero^talk 02:10, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@NotReallySoroka: An official announcement of the new currency appeared in the Palestine Gazette of 1 March 1927, pages 132-134, and was reprinted for example in the Palestine Bulletin⁩, 16 March 1927⁩. I have the original. In there it uses "£P" without comment. I.e., even though it never says "the official symbol will be...", it uses the symbol. This shows that the symbol had official sanction, which I suggest is enough to justify our mention of it. Zero^talk 02:27, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I also find "£P" used in multiple reports of the Palestine Currency Board. Examples: Palestine Gazette 16 Oct 1928; The Palestine Bulletin⁩, 10 Dec 1928⁩. Zero^talk 05:46, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Zero0000 We can say something along the lines of "there's no official symbols but both £P and LP have been used", sourcing it to your sources. NotReallySoroka (talk) 01:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

We can't say there is no official symbol without a source saying that. I rather suspect that there is a statement somewhere that I haven't found. But we can note usage by official sources; I'll do that soon. Zero^talk 08:15, 24 May 2023 (UTC)