Talk:Palmer-class lifeboat

Identification

How about I add all the Pre ON numbers for all these boats.

Pre ON numbers are unofficial numbers used by the Lifeboat Enthusiast Society to reference early lifeboats not included on the official RNLI list.

Martin Ojsyork (talk) 20:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't use them on other pages and I'm not sure that would pass Wiki's standards for source material. Geof Sheppard (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I started using Pre-ON numbers, esp. for when you start getting boat swaps between stations, like the ones around Anglesey, and to be honest, it was making it easier for me to find boats. It makes things a whole lot clearer, because its suddenly obvious that its the same boat.

ie: Pre-151, Lifeboat No.4

Penmon 1831–48, Moelfre 1848–53, Cemlyn 1853–65

You might have spotted more Palmer-class lifeboats if I'd done it earlier.

Seems to be far too much worrying about what will be accepted on Wiki. Haven't had anyone saying the LBES handbook is an invalid source yet. Too many pages yet to do to start worrying about that. Ojsyork (talk) 19:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Struggling...

Decided I would add service dates. However, I'm struggling, because this is ordered by station name, unlike any other fleet page. Please, lets add Pre-ON numbers, and then we can assign the same boat to multiple stations. MartinOjsyork (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I put it in station order as I didn't have all the dates. If you have them we can make it date-order as usual. Geof Sheppard (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have all Pre-ON, or all dates

But its a fleet table, needs to be ON, or Pre-ON number order first, esp. because some boats will have multiple dates.

I'll do what I can, and take it from there...

Martin Ojsyork (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Added some extra boats

Not quite sure they are all Palmer type, esp the later ones over 40-foot??

Need to x-ref the actual station info, but that will take some time.

Work in progress!

MartinOjsyork (talk) 23:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

A 40-foot boat is highly unlikely to be a Palmer design! I'll take a closer look next week and see how your list matches up with my (on-going) research. Geof Sheppard (talk) 16:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I took all the boats listed as "Norfolk and Suffolk" (NSP) from the LBES handbook, which clearly includes Palmer boats...but then realised that not all NSP are Palmer type.

Could find no more info on pre 1828 boats, and then realised they couldn't be Palmer type, because of the date.

The 1852 Branford built 32ft Palling boat is correct, according to Jeff Morris. I appreciate 40ft is a bit of a stretch, but I have no more info.

MartinOjsyork (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Norfolk and Suffolk boats are not Palmers. They are much larger, both longer and wider. They have their own article and should be listed there. Palmers are just little whale boats woth 5 or 6 oars.

The Palling boat, according to the RNLI's reports, had some features common with Palmers but was not to Palmer's design.

Could you please look at all the boats you have added. If the cited source does not specifically describe them as 'Palmer' then you should take them off this page. Geof Sheppard (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Norfolk and Suffolk boats are not Palmers. They are much larger, both longer and wider. They have their own article and should be listed there.

Yes, I appreciate that.

But my initial problem is that all the Palmer boats are listed as (NSP) Norfolk and Suffolk type in the LBES handbook. So its impossible to distinguish using my only source.

I deleted all the NSP boats I'd added from before 1828, because I realised Palmer hadn't designed them by that date. But I can't confirm or deny any after this date.

Ref Jeff Morris, History of Palling Lifeboat

"A 32ft x 9'7" 'Palmer' type non-self-righting lifeboat was built for the Association, by Branford, of Gt. Yarmouth, at a cost of about £75..."

MartinOjsyork (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Geoff

Just seen your updates.

Enough. Just crack on and do your own thing.

You are out of control. I don't need edit waring.

Martin Ojsyork (talk) 10:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

If "all the Palmer boats are listed as (NSP) Norfolk and Suffolk type in the LBES handbook" then lets show them as Norfolk and Suffolk here. If I have put them in the Palmer-class article it is because I have seen them listed as such, generally in The Life-boat, and so they should stay here. If in doubt, I would go by the size. As I read more of the early issues there might be some clear listing. At least, I hope so!

In the Helen Doe's new history of the RNLI there is a list of lifeboats which appears to have come from TRichie Leonard (although I can see a couple of obvious errors). It has 29 Palmers built between 1828 and 1852, and 19 Norfolk & Suffolks between 1833 and 1912. There are also numerous boats without a class, which would reconcile with the lists given in The Life-boat that show many of the early boats as coming from local builders and not conforming to the familiar Plenty or Palmer designs.

So no easy answers, but let us both try our best not to introduce more confusion. Geof Sheppard (talk) 16:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with decisions over boat types. Its not clear, and we're doing our best to sort stuff.

I'm just fed up with you deleting everything else I do, just because you don't like it. Adding all the Pre numbers was all good - and a clear difference between normal ON. But you just delete all my work. And now its impossible to work out if its Pre or normal.

I find one of the few boats with a Palmer citation (Palling) and you delete that?

We have a standard format to put ON and OP references under tables, so why do you keep changing it?

MartinOjsyork (talk) 16:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)