Talk:Pamir Mountains

Untitled

I redirected Pamir Mountains and Pamirs here. I don't know which one is standard, so I picked the one that had the most links already in Wikipedia. I've also seen it called the "Pamir Range" and "Pamir-Altay".

Pamir may also be a region, not just a mountain range.

-- Walt Pohl 05:29, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Peak Latvia

Peak Latvia. First climbed in 1960 by Latvian alpinists and then by the USSR authorities was named as Peak of Soviet Latvia. In August 1st, 2005 four Alpinists from Latvia - Olegs Silins, Viesturs Silenieks, Valdis Purins and Andrejs Kozakovs climbed to the Peak of The Soviet Latvia and renamed to the Peak Latvia (6218m).

Correction: Renaming of peaks is a governments matter and no individual has the right to do it officially!

Map is inadequate.

Please place this map in some kind of perspective. As it is, it's pretty useless. Kdammers 08:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Roof of the world

@ Zlerman: You may not be aware that there is an entry now under that heading that explains why the link that you removed makes sense. I sincerely hope you don't mind my putting it back in. Thank you.Marschner (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll put my objection from "Tibet (Discussion)" here to clarify my point:

I object against the redirection of "Roof of the World" to "Tibet".
Before Tibet got into the limelight, the term "Roof of the World" was applied to the Pamirs,
see: Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th ed., 1911): "PAMIRS, a mountainous region of central Asia...the Bam-i-dunya ("The Roof of the World")
or The Columbia Encyclopedia,1942 ed., p.1335: "Pamir (Persian =roof of the world)"
- see also homepages of the Pamir area: "the Pamirs, a region they know as POMIR – “the roof of the world". Explanation added in the entry --Marschner (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC).

Be bold and fix it. Yaan (talk) 15:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Anf furthermore: "Roof of the world" is a term that refers to the geography, not to the political situation of the area. As several entries in Google demonstrate, it is still alive in the sense it was used in Victorian times.--Marschner (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Dear Marschner: what you have done is absolutely wonderful! I was not aware of the goings on behind the scenes in Tibet. Since my elementary school days I knew that Pamir was the "Roof of the World", so you can imagine my astonishment when I clicked on the link in Pamir Mountains a week or so ago and got Tibet! I immediately removed the link as "inappropriate", but of course I kept the term "Roof of the World" in the article Pamir Mountains. Now we can finally have a proper traditional link for Roof of the World. Well done! Let's hope nobody interferes with this any more. --Zlerman (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
• If possible, try to change the main article title to "Roof of the World" (with capital W). Much better than "Roof of the world" (with lower-case w). This may require asking an administrator to delete the existing "Roof of the World" (which is just a redirect) and make room for move. --Zlerman (talk) 02:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Zandweb has added a new etymology, which derives Pamir from Pam+Ir[an], the "Roof of Iran". In support of this etymology, he gives five links: three internal Wikipedia links to Pamir languages and Iranian languages (twice) and two external links to maps showing the distribution of ethnic groups in Tajikistan and in a broader region around Iran. None of these links even remotely mentions the etymology "Pam+Ir[an]". I am therefore removing this etymology as unsourced until such time that verifiable sources can be provided in accordance with WP:VERIFY.

Zandweb also made an edit in note [1], inserting the etymology Pam+Ir[an] into the text of the note. Note [1] cites a specific source which gives a totally different etymology for Pamir. The edit therefore contradicts the cited source and is removed accordingly.

The last paragraph in the "Etymology" section is removed by WP:SOAPBOX. The proper place for such arguments is the talk page. --Zlerman (talk) 02:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Zandweb, I have reverted your edits again. None of your external sources back up your claims. Also, please do not use Wikipedia articles as your sources (by the way, your Wikipedia sources failed to back up your claims). Your information may very well be legitimate. But please find sources that actually verify what you're trying to say. Sincerely, Kingturtle (talk) 15:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Middleton and Thomas, page 520 offer 9 etymologies from Sanskrit, Persian and Turkic without much confidence. Zhang Quan used 'po-mi-lo' and Marco Polo used 'pamir', so the name must be old and local. My uneducated guess is that these are all semi-educated guesses and no one really knows. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 02:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Names and etymology

Where is the etymology?

A proposal for consideration:

Po/pa → https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/po

→ https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82p%C3%B3

+

(Mount ?) Meru — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C2:A73D:EF00:4C9E:BC2B:9D6A:47DE (talk) 16:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Chinese Name

I added an explanation for the Chinese name 葱嶺 (Onion mountains) yesterday, but it was removed since the reference I provided is not in English. I think mentioning the name without an explanation (or reference) doesn't make much sense, so I removed it. Message created by 89.53.117.161 10:27, 23 February 2009

You have done a masterful job with the two references. Everything looks perfect now. We have an authoritative reference for the name "Congling" and we also know why they are called "Onion Mountains". All readers of this article should be grateful to you. One thing remains to be done: please translate the title of the Chinese book that you use as a reference for the quotation and provide some basic bibliographic information. --Zlerman (talk) 12:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I saw that there's actually an article about this classic, so I linked there. Wikisource even has the complete text [1]. Taniquetil (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Name

Please find out the ancient name of Pamir. To me, it seems "Meru" Mountain mentioned in Jain & Buddhist text. Also write name of forest in this range. This will help us find the history of this mountain range. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.196.34.166 (talk) 07:49, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Southern extent of the Pamirs

I would question whether the Pamirs can really be said to extend to Pakistan. The maps I have consulted describe the mountains between the Wakhan and Pakistan as part of the Hindu Kush, and that is what the Hindu Kush article says. Yes, the Hindu Kush article describes it as an "extension" of the Pamirs (and a sub-range of the Himalayas), but I don't think that is meant in the sense that it is a sub-range of the Pamirs, any more than the Karakoram are. If Tirich Mir was in the Pamirs, it would be the highest mountain in the Pamirs, and if it is not, what mountains in Pakistan are in the Pamirs?

Does anyone have an authoritative source? Mhockey (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• This is what the Big Soviet Encyclopedia has to say on the boundaries of Pamir: "The question of the natural boundaries of Pamir is debatable. Normally Pamir is regarded as covering the territory from Trans-Alay Range to the North, Sarykol Range to the East, Lake Zorkul, Pamir River, and the upper reaches of Panj River to the South, and the meridional section of the Panj valley to the West; to the north-west Pamir includes the eastern parts of Peter the Great and Darvaz ranges." For all that it's worth. --Zlerman (talk) 16:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

In other words, according to that source (and for all I know that's the common convention) the Pamirs do not extend to Pakistan in the south. Apcbg (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

[Khuram] In the Wakhan Coridor, Pamir River is the boundary between Afghanistan and Tajikistan. Wakhan River Also can be considered as part of Pamir River system. It is certain that Pamirs lie to the north of Pamir River System. If some part of Pamir exists to the south of Pamir River or Wakhan River, then there is the possibility that Pamirs extend to Pakistan. Pakistan lies south of Wakhan River/Pamir River. If Pamirs don't exist south of these rivers then they also do not exist in Pakistan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.25.166 (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I think most people would say that the Pamirs extend into the Wakhan. It is the location of a number of pamirs, including both the Little Pamir and the Great Pamir.--Mhockey (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been researching this issue for my m.a. thesis on the Pamirs, and I can't find any evidence that the Pamirs extend into Pakistan or Kyrgyzstan. But it depends: Is the geographical extent of the Pamir Mountains only restricted to areas where there are "Pamirs"? This could have repercussions in in the usage of the term "Pamiri" to refer to the Shughni, Roshani, Yazgulami populations, who (in Tajikistan at least) refer to themselves as "Pamiris" even though they don't live in the Pamirs. But I can't think of any populations in Pakistan that call themselves Pamiris or that claim the Pamir Mountains extend into Pakistan. There's a sizable population of Wakhi in Pakistan, but this an immigrant population and not an indication that the Wakhan extends into the Pamirs (not that anyone is claiming that the Wakhan does). David Straub (talk) 00:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would say that the Pamirs, in the current sense of the term, are restricted to areas where there are pamirs, but the term does seem to include those areas. The issue is confused because some sources seem to use the term pamir to mean a mountain range rather than a valley. I would guess (without having examined the history of the term in detail) that the expression Pamir Mountains was first use for the mountains around the pamirs, and its use was then broadened.--Mhockey (talk) 12:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

New Map misleading

I am pleased to see a new map which better indicates the position of the Pamirs but, unfortunately, it is very misleading. As one can see, it names the range mountains stretching east of the Pamirs and south of the Taklamakan desert as the Himalayas. This is not so - the main Himalayan range stretches to the southeast and then east along the southern border of Tibet. The mountains indicated as the Himalayas on the map should, instead, be marked the Kunlun Mountains. Can anyone fix this please? I don't know how to do it myself. Cheers and thanks, John Hill (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Language Glossary?

Why is there a table German English Russian Tajik in this article about the Pamirs? Doesn't that belong to the article about the Tajik language? (wikipedia is not a travel guide) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicob1984 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my question! I look if I can move the glossary somewhere else.--Dia^ (talk) 12:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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Name/Etymology should be rewritten

The reason why I have removed some texts is because they didn't summarize and represent the cited source properly:

• Frank Bliss - Social and Economic Change in the Pamirs (Gorno-Badakhshan, Tajikistan) - Page 13-14
  • Linguistically, the word ‘Pamir’ probably describes a specific form of mountain and valley. Kreutzmann, basing his thesis on several other authors, gives the translation as pâ = mountain and mira = ‘broad area’ (1996: 50–51). This description is based on the plateaux (= broad areas) in a high mountain range, which accurately describes the character of the Murghâb and its side valleys and is also characteristic of the neighbouring parts of Pamir in the Afghan Wakhân. Another interpretation of this term, just as plausible, by Satulowski includes the elements mir and pan or pai, the first to be translated as ‘mountain’ and the second as ‘foot’, which would make ‘Pamir’ the ‘mountain foot’ or ‘mountain socle’ (1964: 21).
  • Other origins, especially from popular etymology, are possible but not very probable. Thus Mursajew offers several alternatives (1956: 252–254): (1) the derivation from the Sanskrit word mir meaning ‘lake’ – though there are many lakes in Pamir, they are not truly characteristic of the landscape; (2) Pa-i-michr, which in Uzbek (?) means ‘socle of the sun’ – in Afghanistan, in his times, this expression was also used to mean ‘the socle of the sun’ (that is, the ‘socle of Mithra’, the sun-god of the ancient Iranians).
  • In many reports one also finds Bamyar, a Persian compilation of pay-I-mehr, which makes the Pamir into the ‘roof of the world’ (see Dor and Naumann 1978: 24–25). Some authors point to the fact that the Kyrgyz do speak of Pamir as the Roof of the World, using the expression Bam-I-duniah (see Von Hellwald [1875] 1880: 238). Pa-mir, ‘Property of the Mir’ is another variation, which is, however, somewhat too banal for a regional name so often used (ibid.).
  • However, the word Pamirin the translation we prefer (according to Kreuzmann), cannot strictly speaking be applied to as wide an area as that of the seven or eight Pamirs as they are presented in geographical introductions. The Kyrgyz themselves do not know any one region with the name of Pamir, but understand under Pamir’s landscapes the common denominators that we have seen in the above-mentioned pâ mir. Therefore, it is better to call the area we are studying not Pamir, but the Pamirs (see pp. 18–20). Here, too, Satulowski gives a somewhat different interpretation. For him, pamir does not designate a particular type of landscape but a specific valley, thus called by the Kyrgyz at the end of the nineteenth century that valley through which flows the source of the Pyandsh, coming from Lake Sari-kul (former Lake Victoria) (1964: 20).

Compare the above text with old cherry-picked revision.[2] Wario-Man (talk) 06:29, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

@Florian Blaschke: What do you think about this? --Wario-Man (talk) 04:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Careless revert. Seems you haven't read this section. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

It's evidently you who hasn't read the section you wish to remove. It makes exactly two claims:

• "Since Victorian times, they [the Pamir Mountains] have been known as the Roof of the World[.]"

This is not a statement about etymology, but easily verifiable history. It is supported by the citations given.

• "[The phrase "Roof of the World"] is presumably a translation from Persian."

This is not a statement about etymology, either. "Presumably" is correct and buttressed by the citations given; the phrase does exist in Persian, as bâm-i-dunyâ (which indeed means "roof of the world", quite literally!), and is plausible as a source of the English phrase "Roof of the World". Nowhere is this suggestion even claimed to be fact.

Note that there is nowhere a single claim about the etymology of the name Pamir, which would indeed require more specialised sources. You evidently believe that the text claims that the name Pamir itself (!) means "roof of the world" etymologically, but it doesn't say that at all. That's your own misconception. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Obviously you don't get my points. Have you clicked on #3 or not?! It has two links; one links to main page of a website and the other is a personal website. The full text of #4 is the stuff that I quoted here. Current cited text does not summarize content of #4. That's all. --Wario-Man (talk) 09:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

It looks to me like this needs to be rewritten. Bliss certainly mentions "roof of the world" as a supposed etymology via Persian, although he does not appear to endorse it. Figuring out his sources is a bit difficult however.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

map of Sakastan

• Sakastan is not Pamir. AliceBzh (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Sakastan is of this topic or unrelated

Their are better maps of the Pamir @Codenamewolf: why remove that map I added or if you dont like the map why dont you add a better one what the hell does Sakastan have to do with the Pamir Mountains. 2402:E280:3D48:133:7D36:A1AA:C476:6CD1 (talk)

Leave edit summaries next time Codenamewolf (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Pamirian Culture

Cultural Significance

The Pamir region holds immense cultural significance for Indigenous communities, reflecting a rich tapestry of traditions, beliefs, and practices that have evolved over millennia. This cultural heritage is deeply intertwined with the region's geographical isolation and historical developments. Formation of Pamiri Culture

Pamiri culture is a unique blend of ancient Zoroastrian beliefs and Ismailism, a Shiite branch of Islam. It began to form over two thousand years ago when Indo-Iranian tribes migrated to the region, bringing the Zoroastrian religion and culture with them. This cultural synthesis was further shaped by the extreme isolation provided by the formidable Pamir Mountains, influencing everything from lifestyle and traditions to unique rituals and practices.

The history of the Pamiri culture traces back to the migration of Indo-Iranian tribes to the region more than two thousand years ago, bringing the rich tapestry of Zoroastrian religion and culture. Over time, these influences were shaped and evolved by the harsh conditions of life in the Pamirs, contributing to the distinctiveness of the Pamiri cultural identity.

Acceptance of Ismailism

In the 8th century, Central Asia was invaded by Arab tribes who brought Islam to the land. Unlike many other regional ethnic groups, the Pamiri people voluntarily accepted the beliefs of the Shiiya branch of Islam, known as Ismailism. Ismailism arrived not through military conquest but through the teachings of preachers, marking a voluntary adoption of a new faith that resonated with their spiritual beliefs.

The acceptance of Ismailism played a significant role in shaping Pamiri cultural practices, including religious ceremonies, ethical values, and community structures. The spiritual leader of the Ismaili community, the Aga Khan, holds a revered position among the Pamiri people, providing spiritual guidance and social assistance that are integral to Pamiri cultural life.

Languages and Diversity

A cornerstone of Pamiri culture is its intricate linguistic landscape, comprising diverse languages and dialects that reflect centuries of cultural exchange and evolution. The Northern Pamir languages include Bartang, Vanj, Darvaza, Rushan, Sarykol, Khufsky, Shungan, and Yazgulyam, while the Southern Pamiri languages include Wakhi, Ishkashim, Yidga, Munjan, and Sanglich.

These languages not only contribute to the vibrant mosaic of Pamiri cultural heritage but also serve as repositories of traditional knowledge and identity. Each language and dialect carries unique nuances, reflecting the historical migrations, interactions, and adaptations of Pamiri communities over time.

Symbolism of the Chid House

Central to Pamiri culture is the traditional chid house, a symbolic embodiment of religious and philosophical ideals. The chid house's architecture and structural elements, dating back over two and a half millennia, reflect ancient Aryan and possibly Buddhist philosophical influences assimilated into Pamiri traditions.

The chid house serves as more than a dwelling; it is a sacred space where religious rituals, communal gatherings, and cultural celebrations take place. The layout and design of the chid house, including its five pillars representing key spiritual concepts and its roof symbolizing earth, wind, fire, and water, carry profound religious and cultural symbolism that is integral to Pamiri identity.

Revival of Cultural Traditions

Efforts to preserve and revitalize Pamiri cultural traditions are ongoing, supported by initiatives such as the Aga Khan Foundation's project to revive Pamiri handicraft skills. Traditional handicrafts, including beautifully decorated skullcaps, intricately woven cloths (suzanis), and other artisanal creations, serve as living embodiments of Pamiri cultural identity and resilience. These initiatives not only promote cultural heritage preservation but also provide economic opportunities for Pamiri artisans, fostering a sense of pride and continuity in their cultural practices. The revival of Pamiri cultural traditions contributes to the dynamic and evolving nature of Pamiri culture, ensuring its vitality and relevance in contemporary times.

For more in-depth information about Pamiri culture and heritage, you can explore the following resources:

[3]https://simergphotos.com/2015/06/21/an-ismaili-wedding-in-the-pamirs-through-my-lens-by-muslim-harji/

[4]https://central-asia.guide/tajikistan/pamir-culture/ 109.71.229.10 (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)