Talk:Pancasila (politics)

Source

I've added info on JI as an anti-pancasila group & info on 1948 civil war that claimed 27000 lives based on the commentary in a newspaper. --*drew 04:59, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Source number [13] is missing Tigre-samolaco (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

References

I'm writing a paper on Pancasila as Ideology, role in Nation will post set of references once done. Or a new article altogether--Trtskh 05:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Pancasila terminlogy

Why Soekarno adapt the terminology Pancasila? Since Pancasila is also the five pillars of Buddhism. As far as I know, Pancasila of Buddhism isn't very common among Indonesian during pre-Independence era and sanskrit is not a common language among Indonesian. 141.213.240.242 06:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit isn't spoken by many Indonesians, but philosophy and culture from the Indian subcontinent have been exported to Indonesia for thousands of years. Hinduism and Buddhism have played a major role in the developemnt of Indonesia culture, so Sukarno was probably wise to appeal to something from the comon heritage that many Indonesians shared when trying to create unity. Gatherton 15:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No... Pancasila in Buddhism is totally different from Pancasila in Indonesia. We, Indonesian, likes to use Sanskrit on philosophical things; such as Dasasila Bandung (10 principles of Asia-Africa Conference), Tritura (3 tuntutan rakyat = 3 demands from people), Bhineka Tunggal Ika (Unity in diversity), and more. The only common thing between Indonesian Pancasila and Buddhism Pancasila is both of them have the same amount of principles: FIVE (=panca). (Wisnuops (talk) 17:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

Standardizing Spelling

In the several articles that Wikipedia has about Indonesia and its history the two differnt spelling of Suharto and Soehatro and Sukarno and Soekarno are used somewhat interchangeably. I suggest picking one and sticking with it throughout the series of articels on Indonesia. Let's discuss whether uniformity is necessary, if so which one do we pick, and if we pick one there sohould be some kind of note somwhere in each article that alerts the reader to the existence of the alternate spelling. Comments? Gatherton 15:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I vote for using the common denomination in English: Suharto and Sukarno. --Asterion ^{talk to me} 22:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. 'Suharto' and 'Sukarno' are the spellings used by both 'The Jakarta Post' and the English language edition of 'Tempo' magazine - the two main English language news publications in Indonesia Davidelit 08:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. 'Su' is not just about spelling, but also represents the year they was born. If you live in Indonesia, 'Suharto' and 'Soeharto' can be a different person. For example, one of the current Indonesian Movie Director, Rudy Soedjarwo. You can't change the name into Rudy Sujarwo. Kunderemp 16:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC) edited again by Kunderemp 17:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Is Indonesian Hindu polytheism?

I'm not Hindu but I'm not sure if Hindu in Indonesia can be categorized as polytheism. Although they have trimurti (Brahma - Siva - Vishnu), don't they prefer to mention Sang Hyang Widhi? I think there are other different between Hinduism in India and Indonesia (Bali).

Regardless whether Indonesian Hinduism is a polytheism, the criticism is still apply.

However, there adre claims from some Kepercayaan (literally means "belief" but I prefer to translate it to "Indonesian Traditional Believe") that the original believe in Indonesia is a monotheism, closely to Panentheism. Kunderemp 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Aha!

Found my arguments in Agama Hindu Dharma article. I never heard The Hindu in Indonesia protest Pancasila. I'll delete it. Kunderemp 17:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Darul Islam against Pancasila

Was Darul Islam against Pancasila? If I remember correctly, Kartosuwiryo (Darul Islam in West Java) rebelled because they disagree with Renville Agreement while Daud Bereuh (Darul Islam in Aceh) rebelled because Soekarno merged Aceh Province with North Sumatra Province.

I read somewhere, Daud Bereuh as representation of PUSA (Persatuan Ulama Seluruh Aceh / United of Aceh Ulama)decided to join Indonesia in 1945 because the first pillar of Pancasila Kunderemp 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Pancasila was onces referred in Piagam Jakarta. In piagam Jakarta, the first pillar is more than just "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa". The next words are about obligations to practice Sharia. That's why the demand from some radical moslem organization still continue to change the Pancasila back to what it was written in Piagam Jakarta. (Wisnuops (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

Pancasila Pronounciation

" Pancasila, (pronounced /pæntʃæˈsiːlæ/) ... " What notation is that? Is 'æ' read as 'e'? Kunderemp 17:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

International Phonetic Alphabet. And IMHO it's incorrect, as Indonesian doesn't even have the /æ/ phoneme; it should be /panʧaˈsiːla/. Jpatokal 06:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

/æ/ is the 'a' in 'Padang' and 'Bapak'. See the rather more comprehensible International_Phonetic_Alphabet_for_English. With respect, I stand by my transcription. Davidelit 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Jpatokal was correct. Looking at your references page:

/æ/: bad

Nope.. 'a' in 'Padang' and 'Bapak' is not pronounced as 'bad' in english. It should be pronounced as either:

/ʌ/: bud

or

/ɑ/: body, pod, father

Kunderemp 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He he he. This could go on for a while. Maybe we should discuss this over a coffee :-). The root of the problem is that the two languages (or three? - see below) have slightly different vowel sounds

Your are correct that the 'a' in Padang is not pronounced the same as 'a' in 'bad' in American English. My argument is that it is closer to the 'a' in 'hat' in British English (see my original reference). Also in British English, 'body' and 'father' have different vowel sounds. As I am British, I went by the transcriptions in the first half of the article. By the way, would you agree that the 'a' is 'Pancasila' is the same as the 'a' in Padang?

By the way, I don't want to be sombong, so I'll check with some of my Indonesian teaching colleagues next week. Regards Davidelit 05:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

How about y'all fight this out on Indonesian language, which currently states that Indonesian has the phoneme /a/ but not /æ/, and then come back here when that is sorted out?

And FWIW, as a native speaker of a language with the phoneme /æ/, there's no way in hell that the original pronunciation of Pancasila was correct. /ɑ/ as in father I can accept. Jpatokal 09:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You have a point.My rendering is not consistent with the Indonesian language page, which it should be in the interests of Wikipedia quality. I'll have a think and come back to it. Davidelit 04:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to change the pronunciation, but it's already been done. I'll concede this one in the interests of accuracy and consistency. Thank everybody for the inputs. Davidelit 13:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and took out the length sign as well. It's certainly not phonemic, but add it back in if you feel it's justified phonetically. kwami 22:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Allah and Tuhan

On August 18 1945, the group that ratified the Constitution unanimously agreed that the term "Allah" (God) should be replaced by "Tuhan" (lord), a more general term which was supported by the Hindus (Saafroedin Bahar et al 1992:305)

Both Allah and Tuhan means God. The different is, Allah was usually identified to Muslim (and Christian) while Tuhan is a more general term and accepted by all Indonesian. Kunderemp 18:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that the Preamble and the religious version of the presidential oath (article 9) both use the word 'Allah'. Only article 29 and the part of the preamble defining Pancasila use the word 'Tuhan'. Davidelit 14:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I know. But the previous version was mistaken by diffentiating the translation of "Allah" and "Tuhan", while the former was translated to "God" (capital G) and the latter was translated to "lord" (small l). I change it so only Tuhan the word to be translated (to God with capital G) while "Allah" is untranslated (and let people who want to know the meaning can find it themselves by looking at the page Allah). Kunderemp 17:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Article title

Where does the article title "Pancasila Indonesia" come from? All the sources seem to just refer to it as just "Pancasila". Perhaps a move to Pancasila (politics) would be in order?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 02:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Symbol of Indonesia's Pancasila

Indonesia's Pancasila uses Garuda as its symbol. I heard that there are some meanings proposed by the symbol itself. As far as I know, the number of feathers of Garuda represents the date of the declaration of Indonesian Independence (17 August 1945): - The number of feathers for each wings is 17 - The number of feathers for tail is 8 - The number of feathers below the guard is 19 - The number of feathers for neck is 45

Is there any other meaning proposed by the symbol? especially for the five pictures on the guard.Celcius Chan 07:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

well, the star is for God, the rice & cotton are for prosperity, the chain is for unity, the tree is for justice & the bull-head I forgot....

the bull is for democracy.. Kunderemp 15:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Distinguish internationalism vs. cosmopolitanism, etc.

The article introduction states a number of opposites, e.g. internationalism vs. cosmopolitanism, or nationalism vs. chauvinism. But it never states what the difference between these terms is, in the context of Pancasila. I'm going to remove them; if someone wants to explain them properly, feel free to put them back in. --SJK (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite needed?

Something terrible seems to have gradually happened to this article. It seems to have slowly involved into a New-Orderish deep analysis of what is a formulation of a few dozen words. For example, why is there an entire section called "Philosophies of Pancasila"? Given that the introduction states that Pancasila is "the official philosophical foundation of the Indonesian state", then the section in question is about "philosophies of a philosophical foundation". And what is the section on "Development" all about, given that about the only changes were made between Sukarno's speech on 1 June 1945 and the finalization of the Constitution. Since then it hasn't changed, or er... developed. It seems to me that a more sensible organization of the article would be History - The five principles - Implementation (to include Sukarno's and Suharto's ways of ignoring or abusing Pancasila). I plan to be bold in the next few days, but thought I'd float my ideas on the talk page before going ahead. Any thoughts anyone? Davidelit (talk) 16:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Bring out the razor. It all smells very WP:OR and WP:SYN. --Merbabu (talk) 02:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

belief in one god?

"Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa" is translated as "Belief in one and only god". I think it's mistranslated. "Belief in one and only god" in Bahasa Indonesia is "PERCAYA kepada Tuhan Yang Maha Esa".

Tuhan is God. Ketuhanan is the adjective form of God.

I suggest this phrase to be re-translated. What is the adjective form of God in English? (Wisnuops (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC))

There is no such word. Jpatokal (talk) 01:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the translation could be wrong. Wasn't Maha Esa the belief in the Supreme Being? Gryffindor (talk) 18:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Maha Esa literally means "most single or one". Kamus Indonesia Inggris (An Indonesian-English Dictionary by John M. Echols and Hasan Shadily (Fifth impression, Gramedia, Jakarta, 1997 ISBN 979-403-753-2) lists "Tuhan yang esa" as meaning "the one God". Indonesia 1999: An official Handbook, published by the Indonesian Department of Information translates the first sila as "Belief in the One and Only God" on page 43, while Indonesia 1962 published by the Department of Foreign Affairs has the expression "Belief in the One God" on page 17. I would therefore suggest that given these two government sources published 37 years apart, the existing translation is accurate. Davidelit (Talk) 08:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

five and a half official religions?

In some districts, government computers are programmed to only allow the "original" 5 religions on the KTP and KK, even though the paper forms for obtaining these ID documents have coded numbers for Confucianism and Lain-Lain as options for religion. Is there a way to mention this issue in the article? Anybody seen news articles or NGO reports that describe it authoritatively? Martindo (talk) 04:50, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

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Criticism section

This section seems to be a bit of a mess. It's been tagged for non-neutrality since 2013, is littered with tags, the few references don't support the idea that any criticism of Pancasila warrants this much text and there is a whiff of WP:OR. There is no criticism of Pancasila in Indonesia (partly because it's illegal to do so) or outside (because nobody cares?). I think it would be best to drastically cut or simply delete the entire section, but I wanted to know if anybody had any objections. Please comment if you do. Regards Davidelit (Talk) 08:01, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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My 20 April 2019 edits

I accidentally reverted my edit, then re-reverted it, but the same dodgy mouse meant I didn't leave a proper edit summary... Davidelit (Talk) 12:27, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Big Tent Ideology?

I think Pancasila is a big tent ideology as it has socialist, nationalist and multicultarilistic (both liberal and socialist) values. But is it truly a big tent ideology? ChineseKid676 (talk) 12:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

pancasila is not political, its a dharma and ideology

Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa (Belief in One creator) not god but creator Kemanusiaan yang adil dan beradab (Just and civilized humanity) justice and ... Persatuan Indonesia (The unity of Indonesia) one nation with one principle Kerakyatan yang dipimpin oleh hikmat kebijaksanaan dalam permusyawaratan/perwakilan (Democracy guided by the inner wisdom in the unanimity arising out of deliberations among representatives) democracy with the people or society as one and unity to socialize with one ... Keadilan sosial bagi seluruh rakyat Indonesia (Social justice for all of the people of Indonesia)

maaf bila lancang namun sila ke satu dan dua bahasanya untuk inggris salah mohon maaf sebelumnya QuaMbear (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@QuaMbear: I've added some notes explaining it is an imprecise translation for the first sila, from an article from Constitutional Court (MK). You can check ,though i will not change the translation, as it is sadly most often used. Envapid (talk) 01:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Semoga ke depannya negara kita semakin damai dan sejahtera, kebebasan beragama dan kemerdekaan serta hukum tidak tajam ke bawah... berkah selalu @QuaMbear QuaMbear (talk) 06:49, 8 November 2023 (UTC)