Talk:Pande Eftimov

Pande Eftimov

Jingiby stop manipulating about Pande. Your biased sources about Pande are less then valid then his own statement in the court. Published in a book in 1991, not in Communist era. If we are listening to his "words"- he is also saying that he speaks Bulgarian perfectly and naturally (but in your own links of the documentary he didn't used even one single Bulgarian sentence and the interview was done with Bulgarian journalist and Bulgarian TV). Even though he claimed that he need to wash the dirt to read the word Bulgarian on the plate, all of a sudden the guy who called him without washing the plate read the same word before him. Then he is saying he took the plate and took it to a field to take pictures. He was small person, he took the plate of 500 kilos and walk with it across Bitola? And you are telling me that such person in late 90'es gave an interview to explain what he was back in those days and we need to believe that and not all of his documents and book printed in 1991? You can keep your biased sources at your local community this is wikipedia working with relevant sources. But, probably you already know that. --Forbidden History (talk) 17:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Since I assume that you are writing your nonsense from Australia and you probably did not set foot in communist Macedonia at all, it is good to know that there was a special law there until the early 1990s, which prohibited the expression of Bulgarian self-consciousness of local people. By your logic Lazar Kolishevski is pure Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 17:53, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

No,Jingiby, Socialistic Republic of Macedonia did not look like your NR Bulgaria in which you grew up. Your views and comments are going beyond any logical understanding. Then how come all IMRO members are not Ottomans in the articles, but your pushed your POV and made the Bulgarians? How come? Stop lying that people were not allowed to declare themselves as Bulgarians in Yugoslavia, especially in the 70es. The census in old Yugoslavia are proving that you are defending Bulgarian POV and not the reality. Bulgarian minority existed in Yugoslavia and everyone was allowed to express it. As you can see he declared himself as Macedonian and end up in jail. What difference does it make if he declared himself as Bulgarian-he would be set free? This is non-sense you are talking here. I can agree that his sons or some family member in the late 90es wanted to get hold of a Bulgarian passport so they can travel abroad, and by the Bulgarian law he had to express his Bulgarian background in order to get their papers, and he did (I'm not denying that). But the period when he found the plate, he was declaring himself as Macedonian and even more, agitating for United and Independent Macedonia.So, don't twist teh facts. --Forbidden History (talk) 09:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

On a contrary, there was a special Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honour, which acted from 1945 till 1991. Jingiby (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby again this source is proving what I'm trying to explain and you misinterpret it. He was declaring himself as Macedonian and I sourced a book and valid document. His view in late 90es has changed (obviously for some reason) and I don't deny that he started declaring himself as such. Therefore the sentence should say the truth, that he was of Macedonian nationality in the period when discovering the plate and later on he changed his views. Changing his views after 40 years is not a proof that he was a Bulgarian in middle 50es and early 60es. His official documents are there and according to them he use to be of Macedonian nationality. And please don't use my refference at your statement cause it's not what is says in that book,OK?--Forbidden History (talk) 12:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I have provided a source he identified himself as Bulgarian in 1941 per the testimony of Kosta Tsarnushanov. Did you ever read it. Jingiby (talk) 12:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

JingibySource that book of Kosta, not some biased website from 2014 that is not even signed who made it. Unreliable website from 2014 in order to clean up his past is not relevant source. Kosta interviewed him when he was 9 years old child during an Bulgarian occupation?!? Are you kidding me? this is your proof? And Pande remembered that he was Kosta Tsarnushanov? This is getting better and better. Then you have a problem why Pande declared himself as Macedonian when he became mature person and got his ID and nationality card for the first time. Please read what are relevant sources, before posting such biased, non relevant, made up, propaganda interviews and websites.--Forbidden History (talk) 13:19, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History in Communist Yugoslav Macedonia it was forbidden to proclaim Bulgarian identity and Bulgarian language was forbidden too. Fore more see: Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992 by Dejan Djokić, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2003, ISBN 1850656630, p. 122. Jingiby (talk) 13:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby should I remind you that Bulgaria even today is not recognizing any Macedonian minority nor Macedonian nationality and out of all people you are going to speak about some dictatorship in Macedonia and Yugoslavia? Does that means that I should delete all of your quoted sources? The facts that you try to misinterpret to the foreign editors are totally opposite to what you are saying. Here is a census document from SFRJ, from 1975 in which Bulgarians even had their own schools, starting from 1951 till 1974 (since the book is from 1975), go to page 94 and here is one even older from 1954 go to page 331. So, everyone could declare himself as Bulgarian and even to go to Bulgarian schools. But Pande was not allowed, ha? If the government was as you claim it was, they would for sure proclaim him Bulgarian in order to get him more years into jail - but that didn't happened - therefore check your biased sources and propaganda before you manipulate with the facts to the foreign admins and editors.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, in then SR Serbia there was an officially recognized Bulgarian minority. In then SR Macedonia it was forbidden to espouse officially Bulgarian identity. The only exception was for people from the minority in Serbia, who settled on the territory of SR Macedonia. May you provide a single source confirming that in then SR Macedonia before 1992, there were native Bulgarians? In fact, I'm thinking of creating an article about him where we can transfer the discussion so that we don't clog up this article. Jingiby (talk) 04:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Stop this nonsense! You are living in a country that in 21 century still doesn't recognize and give rights to the minorities. You should know these facts. Here is document of declared Bulgarian in Macedonia through the past period of SR Macedonia and SFRJ go to page 64. we clearly see the number of Bulgarians declared in Macedonia starting from 1953, 1961, 1971, 1981, 1991, 1994, 2002 and yours Pande is not one of them! Wikipedia is not place for your biased Bulgarian propaganda.--Forbidden History (talk) 07:34, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Secondary sources claim they were from the Western Outlands, including Macedonian Wikipedia.Jingiby (talk) 08:51, 17 December 2020 (UTC)