Talk:Panini (sandwich)/Archive 1

Archive 1

How to make a panino

I believe it would be a good idea to add a "How to make" section to the pae, for those who want to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunatic Pandora (talk • contribs)

Might be a good idea. WikiBooks has a cookbook module where it may fit better. We would then have a link to the cookbook here. --Midnightcomm 03:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

How to make a panini? That's the equivalent of asking how to make a sandwich. Panini are generally not overstuffed and usually contain just 2-3 fresh ingredients and a flavored mayo, aioli or salsa. But, that's a traditional Italian definition that becomes less relevant in North America where anything between two pieces of bread can be called a panini.

Typically in North America, panini refers to the process of pressing a sandwich under a weight on a hot griddle, or using a George Foreman-type grill or a panini press to cook the sandwich. But, you can also eat cold panini. There is no "recipe" for panini, just as there isn't one for a sandwich. While most in the US would associate a ciabattina (small individual ciabatta "slipper" bread) as "panini bread", in practice, any bread can be used (although it's unlikely you'll see rye or pumpernickel in Italy, in the display cases of panini shops you will see white, wheat, baguettes, small kaiser-type rolls, knotted rolls and foccacia among and other breads used for panini).

As to the point on the main page that the Panera Bread chain has popularized panini in the United States, what they have done is popularize among suburbanites the idea of calling grilled sandwiches "panini". This is not dissimilar to what Starbucks did with the word "macchiato".

Regarding the cookbook link, probably the best print guide in English for panini making is Simple Italian Sandwiches ["http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Italian-Sandwiches-Americas-Favorite/dp/006059974X"] by Jennifer and Jason Denton who own 'ino, a very traditional enoteca in New York City that serves various panini, tramezzini and bruschetta.--Paniniguy 02:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. What do Starbucks give you when you ask for a macchiato? —Ian Spackman 15:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking with some non italian people, I discovered that they intended with the term "macchiato" a drink which is different from what italians expect; it is referred to as an espresso with one/two teaspoons of milk, whereas they intended it as milk with some drops of coffee. Maybe this is what Starbacks offers. --Cantalamessa 15:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this is getting a bit too off topic, but here's a brief explanation: A Macchiato is a very simple espresso drink consisting of simply espresso coffee with a dallop of steamed milk froth on top. When you order a macchiato at Starbucks, what you essentially get is a latte with froth on top, with a bunch of sugar and flavors added. It is not atypical for American restaurant chains to put their own spin on "ethnic" foods. When I was in Italy, I saw many cafes serving "American" foods that I, as an American, barely recognized. It is the nature of the beast. For all intents and purposes, a Panini in America is an Italian-style sandwich. Enough said. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.172 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

macchiato in this context means "contaminated". In Italy there are latte macchiato(milk with a squirt of coffee) and café macchiato(coffee with a squirt of milk). Outside Italy "Macchiato" is whatever the customers choose it to be. The same goes for the "Panini", outside Italy it is whatever the locals understand it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.154.106 (talk) 08:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Pronounciation

I think the IPA should be different for the first syllable: pa-ni-no sounds like pu(nk)-nee(dle)-no(vel). --Cantalamessa 10:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such word as 'pronounciation'. The word is 'pronunciation'.

86.139.152.219 (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!

We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!

Well, I'm italian and I would definitely order the item in the picture as "Uno sfilatino, per piacere!". But it falls in the panini family, without any doubt. An italian sandwich is made with softer bread, whereas the ciabatta is different from the panino: it has a thinner crust, slightly overcooked brownish, and lot of big air bubbles in the breadcrumb. The real "panino" bread is the one offered with porchetta: yellow crust, white breadcrumb, small/normal air bubbles inside. --Cantalamessa 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the Italian-language wikipedia, and that is not a "panini" to English speakers. The simple fact that we call an individual sandwhich a panini instead of a panino should clue you in to the fact that we're not talking about the same thing. This whole article is inappropriately pandering to foodies and people with a cultural agenda, ignoring the obvious fact that a panini is known as a pressed grilled sandwich to most people. That's not a sidenote, and the difference in definition is not trivial. If you're going to pointlessly favor the Italian definition over the more common one, you should at least point out that a different definition exists instead of glossing over it. If somebody really only knew about paninis through this article and brought up the information in public they'd get funny looks. 24.188.137.55 (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it a singular or a plural?

I am a bit unhappy about the low-level edit war which has been going on around this question. I am sure that we can all agree that in Italian the singular is Panino and the plural is Panini. But I am not at all happy about describing the English language usage of Panini as a singular noun as ‘incorrect‘. Panini is singular in the English language, just as Spaghetti is singular (or uncountable). If I tell someone that ‘the spaghetti are ready’ I am either teasing them—hey you should learn Italian!—or forgetful. It’s not something you say in English. Basically this kind of Puritan (or Catholic) prescriptivism died out out with the first edition of the OED, And if you want to go into an English sandwich bar and ask for a toasted sandwich, you had better ask for ‘a panini’. Thoughts? —Ian Spackman 15:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. No edit war, please. Let's discuss and find a common agreement. Dictionary.com reports "panino" as first form, but also "panini" is preferred. I think this word has inherited the same usage of "zucchini", which is used as singular, though it is undoubtedly plural in italian. --Cantalamessa 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Shoot me down in flames if you think this is silly, but doesn't "panino" correspond to the so-called "open sandwich" (or "open-faced") and "panini" to either the standard two-slice sandwich or the multi-slice sandwich (double- and triple-deckers and above)?

I agree that sometimes editors can get pedantic over word forms, but I have to say that nothing makes me grind my teeth more than hearing a television journalist talk about either "a bacteria" or "these bacterias". "Alot" is another trigger. So my vote is cast with the panino/panini purists :) AncientBrit 15:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The singular form 'Panini' is correct in the English language because that is the word which english speakers use exclusively except when engaged in erudite point scoring. 'Panino' is surely a Hypercorrection. I suggest the page should be renamed 'Panini' and should follow the example of the article on graffiti. Petecarney 21:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; this may be true in some parts, but not everywhere. I also don't think this is a hypercorrection, since that would imply incorrectly applying a foreign language rule to a loan word from that language. In this case, the application of the rule is correct. Mindmatrix 16:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course its wrong, it is not the same as spaghetti at all. If you consider the word Panini as a singular to be correct, then you must also consider the plural "Paninis" to be correct also! It is truly absurd. Graffiti is used as a singular and plural, spaghetti is only used as a plural, Panini is not- we have invented a plural form Paninis of a plural word used in the singular. Moreover we have given it a meaning quite different from the original. In the uk, a Panini is a sandwich made of a particularly unpleasant kind of bread, that is toasted- an untoasted sandwich with a crustier role is called a Baguette! In Italy, the word Panino means any kind of sandwich, from sliced bread with a piece of cheese in all the way to the filled bread rolls. Well i suppose at least there, no Panino resembles an English Panini! LOLHotspury (talk) 13:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of zucchini. It's far to late to fix that one, but there's still hope for the panino. Tangerine Cossack (talk) 07:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

How ridiculous; I (sadly) know so many people that spell "you" as "u" and even more that don't know how to choose between "to" and "too", or all the other common mistakes. Just because a mistake is frequently used doesn't make it become valid, it is not an accepted replacement. nice too no that sum of u choose rules 4 ur convenience 90.208.0.94 (talk) 18:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Kudnt agree wit u mor 205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a dumb debate. Regardless of the degree of its incorrect usage in English, it is still, in fact, incorrect to describe a single sandwich as a "panini". Are we going to change "corned beef" to "corn beef" because an increasing number of morons are using that erroneous terminology? This is an encyclopaedia ... as such, it should be CORRECT. All one does by pandering to the idiots is to bring the rest of the world down to their level. Shouldn't Wikipedia's goal be to help eradicate ignorance, rather than validate it? 205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess we should start filling Wikipedia with misplaced apostrophes and incorrect pluralizations because they too are in common usage. Let's not forget to misuse "their", "there" and "they're" as well as "too", "two" and "to", "insure" and "ensure" and a host of other errors now in "common" usage. The ignorant have won! Long live incorrectness!205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

In Italian a panino is basically just a bread roll and panini are several of them. What either of these words mean to the English-speaking world is up to the English-speaking world. There are plenty of words from foreign languages that have a differing or even different meanings in the English language, e.g. gusto in Italian means taste. It is the same the other way around. The English film is used in Italian as singular or as plural, distinguished only if accompanied by an adjective or a numeral. For a really creative use of language you might have a look at Switzerland. It's german-speaking population uses a lot of French words, often with matching meanings, but declines them as if they were german words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.154.106 (talk) 09:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the encyclopedia that anyone can edit! There is no question whatsoever that panini used in the singular is wrong, but we have once again decided to perpetuate incorrectness by consensus: Argumentum_ad_populum. Eric ^talk 14:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees with you. panini is quite clearly a correct singular usage, and arguing against it is like saying "a zucchini" is wrong. Kupiakos (talk) 06:50, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I live in Holland, where the same problem has arisen (so it isn't just English- and French-speaking countries, as the article implies). No-one here (except people who have just started Italian lessons!) refers to a "panino" in the singular, and Dutch serving staff look blank (or actually "correct" you) if you ask for one. People also say "panini's" in the plural, even though (as in English, but not in French with its "les spaghettis sont...") they don't make a false plural of "spaghetti", "tagliatelle" and so on - these are treated as a non-countable mass, like milk or sugar (so the earlier comment about "spaghetti" now being used as a plural doesn't hold water - we say "I think this spaghetti is ready", not "I think these spaghetti are ready", so if anything it's used as a singular, with no plural form). But panini(s) are countable, so a plural is needed. I occasionally tell Dutch people that asking for "een panini" ("a panini") sounds as silly as asking for a "een broodjes" (the plural of "broodje" = "bread roll'). That briefly stops them in their tracks, especially in a country whose people pride themselves (admittedly with decreasing justification) on "knowing their languages", and where foreigners who speak broken Dutch (and no English) are the subject of much ridicule. Dutch-speakers wouldn't want to be caught saying something that sounds like "een broodjes", even in another language! But I still don't expect them to start saying "een panino" (any more than English-speakers are likely to stop using the mangled French expression "double entendre"). The things are quite simply known as "panini's" (the apostrophe is correct in Dutch), singular "panini". I do think Wikipedia, being an encyclopaedia, should draw attention to the error (and add a Dutch version of the article, which is currently missing - if I were a native Dutch-speaker I'd give it a try), just as the Dutch Wikipedia points out Dutch-speakers' misuse of "high tea" to mean what is called "afternoon tea" in English ("there is a widespread misconception, particularly in Holland and Germany, that 'high tea' is a posh afternoon ritual"). But I also feel it should record actual usage, rather than try - surely in vain - to make people change their linguistic habits. Are we to insist that English-speakers stop saying and writing "the macaroni is ready, so let's eat it", just because it's called "maccheroni" and used with a plural pronoun and verb in Italian? See also the English and Italian Wikipedia articles on macaroni/maccheroni. Perhaps it's just that "panini(s)" are a relatively new concept in English and Dutch. In another ten years' time I reckon "a/een panino" and "two/twee panini" may sound and look as weird as "the maccheroni are ready, so let's eat them" does now - if they don't already. Take "salami", which is plural in Italian - but surely no-one would now write the "correct" singular form "salame" in English. And to me the clincher is that an English or Dutch "panini" isn't even the same thing as an Italian "panino", which means a bread roll in general. For what it's worth, I say all this as a professional translator.188.203.49.105 (talk) 16:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I would argue there's no reason to keep "panino" everywhere in this article, and instead to change most uses to "panini". "A panini" is proper form in English. For evidence, one can visit The Oxford English Dictionary and Google Ngrams. It is clear that, in English, "panino" is quite uncommon, and "panini" is preferred. From the OED: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." The consensus is clear. Panini is correct for the singular form without a doubt, and, depending on the usage, panini or paninis may be used for the plural form. Kupiakos (talk) 06:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

This issue has recently resurfaced with bold edits by Py0alb. I am not arguing one way or the other, but trying to maintain the status quo in the absence of a consensus in the above discussion. I have started an RfC below to establish consensus. Ibadibam (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Please refer to the (now closed) discussion below, in which a consensus is reached that the English singular usage is panini, not panino (hence the naming of the page). I don't know who deviated from the consensus and when and I'm not particularly interested in investigating, the important thing is that the page now reflects the consensus view Py0alb (talk) 08:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That discussion established no such consensus. Specifically, it resulted in the current page title, but there was no consensus about usage, as almost all responses involved personal opinions and anecdotes. There was no data presented by either side (other than one regarding Google hits for 'panino' and 'panini', which is not usable as a deciding factor on its own). That is not how consensus is established. Mindmatrix 15:26, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

No Original Research?

My understanding is that Wikipedia does not allow original research. It appears, however, that the decision to move this article to "Panini (sandwich)" was made largely on the basis of original research ("my local restaurant," "in my experience," and on the other hand, "in the Toronto area," etc.) as well as personal opinion.

I believe that most English-language dictionaries these days reject prescriptivism and make their decisions on the basis of empirical research into how English-speakers actually use words. So what do the dictionaries -- the most reputable source -- say about this issue? So far, I see dictionary.com saying "panini" is the "usual" usage, while m-w.com goes with "panino."

The Oxford English Dictionary (typically an authoritative source in English debates) lists it as "panini" in the official entry, with panino, pannini, and pannino as other forms. It says: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." Google NGrams (actually showing usage in books) shows the clear winner of "panini". Why this is even a debate is the real question. Kupiakos (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed move to Panini (sandwich)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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 Done - consensus below for a move to Panini (sandwich). Neıl ☎ 15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I requested the article be moved because the word "Panino" is not part of the English language whereas "Panini" is a perfectly good loanword from Italian. Please contribute your opinion. Petecarney 11:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose. Panino is indeed used in the english language; at least, it is quite commonly used in the Toronto area (as is panini), especially in those areas heavily populated by Italians. In fact, panini and panino are used interchangeably, and both qualify as loan words into English (despite my spell-checker's refusal to recognise either term). Moreover, the article clearly illustrates the distinction between the terms, the etymology and current english usage. (I was going to suggest that if the article is to be moved, it should be to Panini, since there's no need to append the qualifying sandwich, but apparently that article title is already occupied by an Indian grammarian.) Mindmatrix 16:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
• Slightly facetious weak oppose, purely because that would further the concept that "paninis" is an acceptable pluralisation ;-) DWaterson 14:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Locobot (talk) 02:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support If you go into just about anyplace in the U.S. that sells panini and ask for a "Panino", chances are you will get a strange look and some request for clarification as to what you mean. older ≠ wiser 16:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support per Bkonrad (immediately above); my local restaurant sells panini. Our article names are optimized for general readers, not for specialists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
  • And they have inspired a competitor to sell paninis, as I just noticed. We should make clear that this is a soleicism; but we cannot expect our readers to know it beforehand. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
• In my experience, panini is used almost universally for the singular item, and paninis for the plural. I would fully expect panini to pass any test of relative usage over panino. Despite the grammar clash in the source language, the usage is now ingrained. Knepflerle (talk) 19:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support - panini is a more used term, even if it is incorrect in Italian. Wikipedia cannot define the correct use of a loanword. EJF (talk) 21:41, 1 February

2008 (UTC)

• Support for the reasons best said by Bkonrad above. JPG-GR (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support. We ask for "a panini" where I come from. Even if that is not correct Italian, it is the overwhelming English use (in my experience). Feel free to explain where it is derived from in the article itself. Mcmullen writes (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

I took a quick look at Goggle without checking for what came back. Panino had 1,070,000 hits and panini had 8,070,000 hits. That is a significant difference. I know that this is not always the best way to judge usage, but the difference is large in this case. Vegaswikian 06:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 07:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This line should be removed

I believe this statement should be removed: "In the United States, panini are typically "gussied up grilled cheese"; they are nearly always grilled or toasted and invariably contain cheese." The source isn't credible, it's just 1 person's opinion. Likewise, the statement "invariably contain cheese" is both factually incorrect AND unprovable.

I already deleted that little section, but I reverted the edit because it broke the link to the (admittedly weak) source article. I haven't made many edits to wikipedia so I'm not sure how to edit out that line but keep the source. As an aside, the picture on the source shows a panini without cheese, in direct contradiction of the statement that should be removed.

So, cut one, cut both, either is fine with me. Can someone that's more proficient than little ol' me make this change? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.119.20 (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)