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Naturyl building the original article
The most recent revisions of this page need to be copyedited -- I don't know enough on this subject to know if they are good or bad edits.
From Naturyl:
I'm new to Wikipedia and am not sure if this is the correct way to respond to your comments above. If not, please direct me to information on how to properly respond to "talk" pages such as this.
Regarding the subject matter, I wrote most of the article in question and can verify that although it has been edited a few times, the article remains relevant and on-point. As a member of the Universal Pantheist Society Board of Directors, I feel that I am qualified to make a determination as to the accuracy of the piece. Please keep in mind that although I am associated with a pantheist organization, I am mindful of NPOV. By and large, it is a fair and accurate summary, although it could probably be considerably expanded. If no one does this in the near future, I will probably take care of it myself.
Thanks,
Nat 04:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, what do you know. The 'near future' turned out to be today. :) I've updated the article, expanded it, and improved the general tone.
Nat 04:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
the nature of God
and I, as a "classical pantheist" have given the page a NPOV overhaul. There stills needs to be an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God. JackLynch 21:23, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hello,
I don't think that these recent edits (by JackLynch) have been particularly constructive. I am a member of the Board of Directors of the Universal Pantheist Society and based upon my considerable understanding of the subject matter, I feel that the article as I originally edited it was superior to the current revisions. A considerable amount of relevant, important material has been deleted from the article, and a corresponding amount of questionable material added. I also find the idea that an 'NPOV overhaul' was necessary to be rather curious. The article as I wrote it contained no slights toward classical or dualistic pantheism, nor did it try to present the 'modern' or naturalistic pantheism as in any sense superior. If I gave more attention to the naturalistic stance, it is only because that interpretation of pantheism is by far the most widely-accepted at present.
I will not revert the article, as I have no desire to be drawn into an 'edit war' or any similar acrimonious proceedings. As far as I am concerned, if Wikipedia is to have an inferior article on pantheism, so be it. I will, however, state for the record my feeling that Wikipedia will not likely attract significant attention from expert contributors until such time as there is some mechanism by which to ensure that authoritative work will not be replaced by revisions of inferior quality. Perhaps it would be useful to implement a system by which articles written by established authorities in a field might be given protection from editing, given that said authors can provide proof of their credentials to Wikipedia administration.
As a result of this situation, I will no longer be able to refer persons interested in learning about pantheism to Wikipedia. Furthermore, I may feel it necessary to advise potential contributors that until Wikipedia finds a way to remove the threat of 'edit wars' and similar bitterness stemming from situations in which a writer feels that the quality of an article has been compromised, it may not be worthwhile to make serious contributons to the project.
As a final note, it is important to understand that I mean no disrespect toward the user known as JackLynch, and I will admit that at least some of the material he added may be valuable. This is not a personal issue for me, it is strictly an issue of article quality. As part of my own efforts to enhance public understanding of this subject matter, I wanted to help Wikipedia have the best possible article on pantheism possible, and I simply feel that the recent revisions have not aided in the achievement of that goal. Nor do I feel, in light of this and the concerns it raises, that Wikipedia itself is particularly well-suited to that task at present.
Nat 09:22, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
If your really that worried about an edit war (whats the deal with that, thats the 2nd time somebody was afraid I would engage in warlike activities on here! no way, not gonna do it...) then you could always talk to me. There are a few ways to do that. You chose one, this talk page, which was good, but you seem to feel mightilly defeated right off the bat. I can't see why you would suddenly lose all faith in the wiki just because of one disturbing edit (a moderately informative edit, in my opinion ;). We totally disagree about what pantheism is. Thats really clear. You seem to be very focused on your church. While it is clear that your church is very important to you, I think it is a serious stretch (not accurate) to suggest "that interpretation of pantheism is by far the most widely-accepted at present". I was talking about the concept of pantheism, and what it means, and correcting some of the more glaring POV "errors" you made in your zeal. For example, you seem to be deeply confused about just who is and is not a pantheist. Take a look here pantheism and then think long and hard about just who might fall under that catagory. Hindu's do, amoung lots of others. Me included. Thats ALOT of believers in a personal God which you ignore when you mention pantheism. You definately seem to think that the naturalistic, "not so focused on a personal God" pantheism is the majority pantheism. I sternly disagree. JackLynch 02:27, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh good grief, Needle has found the Wiki. Be prepared to revert over and over again. This guy does searches for pages containing the terms 'pantheism' and 'cosmotheism' in order to preach his bizarre message, and he is as persistent as a bad rash. Have fun, wiki-people.
Needle?
Whats the deal? Why do you think we should revert this guy? Is he User:216.99.245.149, who placed links to the cosmotheism website? If so he sure didn't seem like a vandal to me, and I didn't really agree w that revert. Lets talk about things, and put the "Pan" back in pantheism ;) Jack 02:47, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Jack,
"Needle's" sole intention is only to put the "theism" back into "pantheism" and that is by my not allowing marxist "pan-atheists" like "Naturyl" and his lying ilk to "hi-jack" the religion/philosophy of pantheism and to so "pervert" the term pantheism from its authentic and original meaning.
Do you not understand, Jack?
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
Wait and see.
Yes, User:216.99.245.149 is the guy known elsewhere as Needle. I'm totally confident that time will vindicate what I've said here. If he sticks around, you'll understand my concern soon enough. That's all I have to say on the matter at the moment.
Oh, and also, have a look at this...
http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Cosmotheism&action=history
- Yep, I've been watching that article too. I don't mind his edits myself, in fact the only real area of concern appears to be the shared animosity between the two of you, and the left/right communist/nazi accusations going back and forth. What annoys me is that he hasn't made an account yet. Also I can't fathom how pantheism, cosmotheism, or any of it mixes nicely with rascism, for if God is all, a negro is... still part of God. Of course it won't mix w marxism at all, since commies are atheists :). Jack 23:08, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Heh... actually, naturalistic pantheism mixes quite well with atheism, but since you don't accept naturalistic pantheism, I don't guess that fact makes much difference to you. As to the "left/right" accusation, I'm not a Marxist, but since Needle insists on calling me one, I won't argue the point. As a dialectical materialist, my philosophy is in line with Marxism anyhow, so it's no big deal to me.
"Obviously! Especially, considering this Marxist Pan-Atheist PC tripe:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/naturyl/texts/pantexts/blemish.html
What else isn't new?"
On the other hand, the accusations against Cosmotheism can be verified immediately by visiting www.cosmotheism.net - where one finds a tribute to William Pierce, among other things. Do you really want classical pantheism associated with this? The latest edit of cosmotheism states that the two are one and the same, you know...
-Nat
Yeah, I know. And if I can tolerate it being associated with its prescice inverse (atheism) I can tolerate it being associated with just about anything, nazism included. I would love to discuss and debate exactly how and why anyone would assume that the word "pan=all theism=God" was synonymous to atheism, spiritual and nature loving or otherwise. Atheism is the rejection of God, antithetical to ANY form of theism. Nazi theology was an interesting combination of Hinduism, mysticism/occultism and Germanic paganism, thinly cloaked in an veil of christianity. Whilst this is clearly socially repugnant today, I am concerned only with the proper use of the term (Pantheism), not the P.R. aspects of it. I don't bother introducing myself as a pantheist to your average bloke, since he isn't going to know the word anyhow. Instead, I discuss religion in an inclusionist fashion, teaching others how much we all agree on the fundamentals, the absoloutes. Theism is a pragmatic faith, atheism a no-win soloution (in my POV satanism disguised). Jack 23:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh my... well, alright then. Perhaps I was mistaken in my prediction that you will see the problem with Needle. Describing atheism as "satanism disguised" is certainly not an encouraging sign, nor is your willingness to tolerate racist propaganda in the presentaion of pantheism, nor is your apparent dogmatism in speaking of the 'proper' interpretation of pantheism. Based on this clear evidence that you are in fact unqualified to speak on modern pantheism, I would once again recommend that the pantheism article be reverted to my last edit, although I will not do so myself. Given your views, I doubt that any further exchange between us likely to be particularly productive. However, if you are sincrere in your desire to learn about how atheism and pantheism can be seen as compatible, I'd recommend the following link as a good place to start:
http://www.geocities.com/finis_stellae/ng/ft/atheism-and-pantheism.html
Good luck, and I mean you no personal disrespect, but I do hope that you will broaden your understanding of pantheism and refrain from characterizing the modern mainstream (naturalistic) interpretation in terms such as "satanism disguised." I ask that you do so not only as a fellow Wikipedian, but as a director of the Universal Pantheist Society and president of the Pantheist Awareness Network. :)
-Nat
And I'm now reverting this page itself, as Needle ( 66.2.156.38 ) has just blanked it. This is an act of vandalism, and should be treated as such. As I warned days ago, be prepared to revert over and over agin. When he doesn't get his way, this guy will not think twice about vandalizing.
-Nat
Pantheism=Atheism?
I think not. If this is your agenda, please edit the Atheism article. If you must, place a paragraph in the article clearly and honestly expressing your view that "atheism and pantheism can be seen as compatible". So long as you make it clear that this is the POV of some (your organization, clearly) I have no problem with that. I myself see it as Doublespeak, but thats my POV. We don't have to have the same POV, just the same love for truth and academic standards in regards to the wiki. In a way, it is ironic that a concept like "pantheism" (theoretically THE faith of inclusionism) has attracted 3 such uncomprimising adherants, with seemingly a common ground only in their love for wiki :) Jack 00:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
No, pantheism does not = atheism...
But it is *compatible* with atheism, in the view of most modern adherents. The World Pantheist Movement agrees, as does the Universal Pantheist Society, as does the Pantheist Awareness Network. The WPM< by the way, is an organization with which I have no affiliation, and it is also the largest panthesit organization in the world. Together, these three organizations represent the vast majority of self-professed pantheists active on the internet. I'm curious as to why they are all wrong and you are right...
- me too... whats the size of your membership? or theirs? How do those numbers compare to the combined total of worldwide Hindu's, who define themselves as pantheistic? ;) Jack 00:27, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hindus don't describe themselves as 'pantheists,' they describe themselves as 'Hindus.' Again, I'm talking about self-professed 'pantheists' here. What's more, most Hindus are panENtheistic rather than pantheistic, if we want to be accurate.
WPM has about 2,000 members, all of whom profess *pantheism itself* rather than a traditional system which may or may not contain various pantheistic elements. The WPM is "pantheism by pantheists," as is the UPS, as is Panaware. The WPM alone comprises the vast majority of persons who call themselves 'pantheist' and wish to be part of a pantheist group. The WPM fully accepts the compatibility of pantheism and atheism, as in fact do all major pantheist organization that I know of.
Again, why are they wrong and you right?
-Nat
appeal to the people?
Also known as the Bandwagon fallacy, this argument that "x is compatable with y because z people believe it" is unhelpful. I am right because I am right. You can study any dictionary or encyclopedia, or any source what-so-ever other than your own organizations, and discover this to be the case. Theism is the opposite of atheism, no matter what sort of Theism it is. Anyways, I agree that whoever blanked the talk page is a vandal, and should be reported to the Vandalism in progress page. I'm gonna do that right now. Jack 01:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Pantheism isn't really "theism" anymore... and that's where all the terminological trouble starts!
Regarding reporting the vandalism, I already did it, but some extra corroboration won't hurt.
Anyhow, since you've admitted that the basis of your argument is "I'm right because I'm right," it looks like I was correct in predicting that we wouldn't get far with this discussion. You can't credibly accxuse someone of a fallacy while introducing a much bigger fallacy, you know. "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so" isn't a particularly compelling line of reasoning. :)
This is all in good sport, though, and I do appreciate your civility.
-Nat
- Sorry, but due to edit conflict the following text will be in regards to your previous comment, not the one directly above. It is as follows: also, irregardless of your definition of Hinduism as Pantheism or Panentheism, it is abundantly clear to me that the members of the three organizations you listed (and that cosmotheist group as well) are the smallest fraction of what is a rather reasonable and easilly imagined philosophy (a philosophy apparently not to be found within your organization, from what I have seen). In short, I don't agree that your organization is in anyway pantheistic at all, quite the opposite. And being a "classical" as well as an intedenominational (isn't that what pantheism is all about???) Pantheist, I am quite disturbed to find you expecting me (or anyone else for that matter) to accept the views of your denomination as speaking for all of pantheism, just as any good methodist would be shocked to hear a Episcopaleon speaking for all Christendom ;) BTW, I moved our complaint to the top of Vandalism in progress, so it will be in accordance with the linear sequence of the page. Jack 01:19, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I likewise appreciate civility, and I pray that all of this effort and chiseling will have a positive outcome for the wiki, and our respective souls :) Jack 01:21, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Soloution
Can you live with the most recent edit? I removed nothing substantial.
As for your claim of pantheism needing to be inclusive, please remember that it is you who are referring to the largest pantheist organizations in the world as "not in any way pantheistic at all."
I'm not speaking for all pantheists. In fact, as far as the Wiki is concerned, I'm not speaking for *any* pantheists, including those who agree with me. I am speaking for the facts. The facts show that all major pantheist authorities today accept naturalistic pantheism as a valid interpretation, and that interpretation is in fact the most widespread among people who refer to themselves specifically as 'pantheist.' Far from being POV, I think I've gone out of my way to make allowance for the dualistic view - despite the fact that its adherents are a minority in the community of people who identify themselves as 'pantheists.'.
I am absolutely NOT here to do a POV hack job in order to promote my own beliefs. I'm not suggesting that you are, either. Hopefully we can both continue to keep in mind that we are seeking the same goal - fair and accurate treatment of the subject matter.
-Nat
- The recent edit is entirely satisfactory. It is clear to me that you are focused on the quality of the article, irregardless of your POV. I would also like to include informations/links regarding the Cosmotheist, Cosmologist and any other organizations/concepts/ways of describing religious philosophy, which are considered applicable to this subject (such as an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God). I am perfectly willing to have information provided from friends of Dr. William Pierce as well as anyone else, assuming that they adapt to the ways of wiki. Cheers, Jack 02:10, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Well then, I guess we've got this worked out - until someone else comes along and disagrees with our compromise. ;) Such is the nature of the wiki, though. If the article ends up better in the long run, I guess I can live with some bumps in the road along the way.
The article as it stands is fairly good, I think. My goal was to make it the best unbiased, NPOV brief summary of pantheism available, and I think we've probably accomplished that. Sure, there are some things that I might be able to do without, but I'm sure you feel the same way. Overall, though, the article works. I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise.
"The recent edit is entirely satisfactory. It is clear to me that you are focused on the quality of the article, irregardless of your POV."
"I completely disagree."
I would also like to include informations/links regarding the Cosmotheist, Cosmologist and any other organizations/concepts/ways of describing religious philosophy, which are considered applicable to this subject (such as an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God).
"The best ways to discover the COSMOTHEIST or the Classical Pantheist "interpretaton" such as by any "objective" and "factual" in-depth discussion as to "personal GOD/S verses IMPERSONAL GOD/S and CONSCIOUS GOD/S verses UNCONSCIOUS GOD/S" is to first start out with having personal integrity.
What I mean by having "personal integrity" is to "mean what one says and to say what what means", without any deliberate mis-leading misrepresentation, whatsoever."
I am perfectly willing to have information provided from friends of Dr. William Pierce as well as anyone else, assuming that they adapt to the ways of wiki. Cheers, Jack 02:10, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I will not "vandalize" anymore articles, if that is what you mean by "adapting to the ways of wiki" only as long as the the focus of ALL articles here are ONLY based SOLELY upon the OBJECTIVE FACTS and not just upon ANY PC-MARXIST-ATHEISTIC BIASED OPINIONS.
I have made some changes
gave the pantheism page a rewrite, and created a seperate pages for Classical and naturalistic pantheism. My primarary goal was to make the page as coherant and Utilitarian as possible for the common reader. I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement on issues of theology, politics, and what-have-you among our tiny community of self-proclaimed pantheists, but I want to focus on where we agree. For the good of the common reader, the general public. I am sure we all agree that the majority of pantheists are unaware of the term. Let this be a entry that informs them, rather than confuses and upsets them with debates. I do see a need for debate, and the discussion of it, but I don't think it merits more than a paragraph in this article. The seperate articles classical pantheism and Naturalistic Pantheism as well as Cosmotheism are a fine place to place longer discussions of doctrinal and fractional differences. I strongly implore anonymous user to create an account, and to provide detailed documentation of your docrtines on the cosmotheism page. I would love to learn more, and while I would like to add to that page, I admit my relative ignorence of your organization, and the particulars of the hierarcical system. Merry Christmas, Jack 06:52, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Mmm-hmm. it seems that you've pretty much wiped out the entire original article. Well, whatever. At least you put a lot of the deleted material in the Naturalistic Pantheism article, which I will edit later. Happy holidays.
-Nat
Yeah, I decided that alot of what was there wasn't so much about Pantheism generally, as it was about the "denominations". OF course, I was inspired to do this by an extreme edit by anonymous, which you might like to take a look at. I don't like reverts, as a general rule, and I figured that we might more easilly agree on a more consise article. Jack 06:10, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Jack-
Regarding any "revisions" of mine for greater clarity or "accuracy", why would that ever constitute any kind of "vandalism", Jack, whatsoever?
Also, you must truely understand that this "Naturyl" of the UPS has been slandering "COSMOTHEISM" and has been slandering and censoring and banning all true Classical Pantheist "COSMOTHEISTS" just like me for a very very long time.
Enough already!
Curious?
Here is just another example from one of "Naturyl's" network of "Pan-atheists":
Best regards,
-Needle aka Paul Vogel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same silly rubbish we've all been hearing for three years. Yawn.
"Indeed. The "pan-atheists" like "Naturyl" and his ilk have been falsely "attacking and censoring and banning" all of the true pantheists/cosmotheists for quite a long time.
It really does get "boring", indeed."
I have to admit, you did find an ideal place to act out your psychotic tendencies in the Wiki. They are notoriously slow to ban. Who knows how many of your vandalisms we will have to revert before they finally ban you, like every other website eventually does.
"I find it amusing that someone that was on "pyscho-active" drugs actually accuses me of acting out "psychotic tendencies". The only websites that have ever banned me were marxist-pc ones that couldn't handle the truth, and no more and no less."
JackLynch now realizes that you are a vandal.
"I am not any "vandal", whatsoever, I just want the "objective truth" to be told."
Soon, wikipedia management will realize the same thing. Until then,I'll be checking my watchlist regularly, and I'll delete your vandalisms as fast as you can put them up. You know I will.
-Nat
"Well well, Nat, it seems to me that if you are the one threatening to "delete" any revisions "as fast as one can put them up" then just you are really being a "vandal" and then wikipedia will only end up just banning you for it. So be it."
Paul
I don't think you are a vandal.
"I am not a vandal". Thanks. :D
I do think mistakes have been made, and you have some work to do. Naturyl... while mistakes have been made, I do not agree with unnecessary reverts. If Paul makes a positive, or even neutral, heck, even a slightly bad edit, do not revert. That is against the wikiphilosophy.
"Thank you, Jack.
The only reverts I do are only for greater accuracy and objectivity."
Check out Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot. Please try to get along, not only for the good of the wiki, but for the good of the earth. Indeed, our kindness and tolerance for one another is one of the most sincere ways to obey God. Thank you for your support. Jack 03:30, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"Indeed, and I could not agree more, Jack. :D
Remember that "obeying GOD" is NOT what any "Pan-atheist" ever has had any real intention of ever doing, whatsoever, unfortunately."
Oh, jeez...
Oh boy. We've got one of those "let's be fair to Needle and give him a chance" types involved now... this will drag everything out twice as long.
"And why not?
Because "Naturyl" can't stand to let the "other side of the story" ever be told "objectively" in any truely "open" forum.
What else isn't new?"
I know this from experience because I WAS one of those types. I have unbanned Needle from my forums more times than anyone else on the Internet, I have given him more chances than anyone else by far. I've learned, the hard way, that all such leeway and patience is wasted on Needle.
"In other words, "Needle" has the terrible "personal integrity" to always and only say what he means and mean what he says, and whether it is actually marxist "politically correct" or not."
No matter how many chances you give him, the result is going to be the same, so it's best to get it over with. As I told you, Jack, I have three years experience with this guy, yet like all the others (including myself three years ago), you will not listen to those who have been there, you have to find out for yourself. Such is the way of life, I suppose.
"The actual pantheist "way of life" is NOT to ban and censor all of those of which and of whom you just happen to disagree, but, that has been the "way of life" for "Naturyl" and for his marxist "pan-atheist" ilk for well over three years and counting. My many years experience with fighting against the marxist-atheistic-pc banning and censoring of the whole truths of reality is personal evidence of that fact."
JackLynch and all others will eventually come to understand the futility of dealing with Needle, as I did. When Needle is banned (and he WILL be), my comments on this page and others will be vindicated.
Until then, I'm leaving the Wiki. Take care, Jack, and others.
"I am really very easy to deal with by all of those actually having "personal integrity" meaning all of those that do mean what they say and that do say what they really mean.
If Jack and any others of wiki do have such "personal integrity" then it will not be "Needle" that is banned nor "Naturyl" that will be "vindicated".
Only such marxist-pc cowards like "Naturyl" do run away when there is any even playing field and when all ideas, whether marxist-pc or not, are actually allowed to compete fairly and openly without any deceptive censorship "rules" to falsely "throw" the game."
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
I also oppose censorship and intend for all of us to successfully contribute to a better wiki, and as a True pantheist, I furthermore intend to explain to everyone how we agree deep down, on the fundamentals. Lets forget about our ego's and our pasts, and focus on the work of understanding God, and explaining him to others. Jack 04:26, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Jack,
I am glad that you also oppose censorship and that the fundamentals are what is important that we agree with "deep down" and that the work of understanding GOD and explaining GOD to others is the real focus of our efforts. :D
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
Personal God
I would like to hear more from Paul about a personal vrs. impersonal God.
"Ok."
Is your (I assume your, you are Cosmotheist, correct?) Cosmotheist God personal?
"Yes, I am a COSMOTHEIST, and the factual answer to your question as to whether any true Cosmotheists' GOD is a personal or is an impersonal one, the correct answer is the term "MU", meaning both/and at one and the same time."
Is he involved in your life?
"Yes, of course, he and it are both involved in my life."
Does he communicate with you?
"Yes, of course he and it does communicate with me."
My God certainly is and does.
"As well as it should be and certainly should do, Jack."
This is an area I would like to explore, as it is tremendously important, and is not given enough time in the verious pantheistic articles. Jack 04:27, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)"
"Indeed, it most certainly is worth exploring and it certainly is tremendously important and is never given enough time in most of the various true classical pantheist/cosmotheist articles and it almost never appears within any "pan-atheist" articles."
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
reverts
FYI:
The "reverts" will and can go on forever as long as you continue to link to only a Jewish-Supremacist and biased and to a completely factually-inaccurate and slanderous and Marxist-PC-bigoted "biography" of the late Dr. William L. Pierce verses this factually-accurate and objective one here:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:66.2.156.62&action=edit
Create an account
not having an account leads people to assume you are a vandal, particularly when you make questionable edits."
Let them "assume" what they will, I am NOT a "vandal" and I have not made any "questionable edits" but only edits for "greater factual accuracy and objectivity". If that is not what your Wikipedia Encyclopedia is really all about then so be it.
"I agree that you should be reverted less, but I myself will continue to revert you so long as you a) don't have an account and b) you make edits which strongly appear to reduce the quality of the article."
The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do. By this standard, the "quality" of these articles by only your own "reverts" and by those of such biased and subjective "others" has only compromised those very same standards.
"Whats best for everyone is a sound, accurate article."
The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do.
"And if you don't like the peirce page, create an account and get to work on it! cheers, Jack 01:10, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)"
I don't like the "Pierce" page only because it is so loaded with just so many "factual inaccuracies" and with so many "deliberate distortions" by only those that so obviously just can't be at all either be NEUTRAL nor OBJECTIVE, and that very fact is only making the "Wikipedia Encyclopedia" as being a factual and a accurate and a objective source of information, only a joke.
I do wish you luck, Jack, and I will also continue to "revert" any and all such "deliberate distortions" and any and all such shameless "lies" that are continued and that are falsely being "locked-in", there, by the Usual Suspects.
Best regards,
Needle
Carl Sagan?
Are you "reverters" disputing the fact that Carl Sagan was a pantheist or cosmotheist? By his own words I can demonstrate and prove that he most certainly was and along with his wife Ann Druyan.
- Cites then, please. Lots of good ones, that aren't on any website that could conceivably be called pantheist or Cosmotheist. Wikipedia is not a recruitment platform. - David Gerard 23:42, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
- Carl Sagan was a pantheist, I can vouch for that. Paul does not need "lots" of citations, nor is it a problem when he cites religious sources. Any source is better than no source. If you have a counter citation, lets see it. Otherwise, I second his claim. Sam Spade 23:54, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I don't see how Sagan was anything but an atheist, or an agnostic at best. I would really like to see some cites for his supposed pantheism or cosmotheism. Adam Bishop 23:56, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- He was a Naturalistic Pantheism, or as I call them "atheistic pantheist". [1] [2] [3] Sam Spade 00:03, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Is it not possible that in the quote from Pale Blue Dot he is actually saying that it is a bad thing that "such a religion will emerge"? Just before that he is talking about religions misinterpreting science...I'm not sure he means that a religion like that would be any better. Adam Bishop 00:16, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- If you can find a source which agrees with your theory that he was not a pantheist, it would be fine to cite that, and provide the opposing POV. Otherwise, it is simply a personal musing, or at best original research. Sam Spade 00:19, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Zing. I can give you sources where he says he's an atheist, but no sources where he says he is a pantheist. You can give pantheist websites claiming him as one of their own, but did he ever say that himself? Or is it your own original research based on strange interpretations of his writings? Adam Bishop 00:22, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Him being an atheist is irrelevent. Pretty much all Naturalistic Pantheists are atheists. I'd be glad to review your citations, but it appears you havn't read mine :(. Try reading this again. It isn't from a Pantheist source. Anyways, this isn't about who "wins" this debate, or where are sources come from, but rather how we can make the best article. Respectfully, IMO you have alot of research to do if you want edit this article. Sam Spade 00:26, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- You're making no damn sense here. - David Gerard 01:06, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
- Quite sorry about that sir, could you please provide me with some specific request for information, so that I might better provide you with assistance? Sam Spade 01:11, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Let's try it in atomically small logical portions. For instance, please turn up a cite where Carl Sagan actually says "I am a Pantheist", "I believe in Pantheism" or otherwise actually subscribes himself to the belief - rather than you taking some words he said and claiming them as evidence of [insert belief of the week here]. - David Gerard 01:22, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
- Thats pretty much irrelevent. Pantheism is not so much an organized faith as it is an term used to describe someones beliefs. There is a group of organized "pantheists", but they have beliefs which are by no means agreed to by all of those who can appropriately be called pantheists. I reccomend reviewing Naturalistic Pantheism, as well as other encyclopedia/dictionary articles on the subject. Sam Spade 01:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I don't see how it's not relevant - if you claim "X is a [insert religious orientation]!" but can't turn up any sort of quote along the lines of "I am a [insert religious orientation]", then of course claiming they are is going to be highly questionable.
- By the way, I note that the quote from Pale Blue Dot most notably does not say that Sagan subscribes to the religious belief he describes there. Does the context of that quote say he does? If so, the quoted portion should include that bit. If not, it should be deleted. - David Gerard 23:45, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
- Please read up on the subject. While there is an unbelievably small organized pantheist movement (one I don't even think of as pantheist, but that’s another topic) the normal usage of the term is as a description of ones worldview, or interpretation of the terms "God" and "reality" or "existence", and thus is not used in the same way that "catholic" or whatnot is used. For example, most references will point out that Hassidim and Brahman Hindu’s are pantheistic. Do they call themselves pantheists? Probably not. They prob. don't even know the term. Knowledge of the adjective, and whether or not it applies to you are completely different subjects. Please, I implore you, read up on Pantheism, check other references (encyclopedia.com, or the Britannica are good places, for example). Thanks, Sam Spade 00:59, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I've tweaked your disclaimer - I think it looks better just as part of the paragraph. Is that OK as it stands, though? Hopefully it puts across your point above - David Gerard 20:56, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
Before this all began
Before Sam Spade began editing this article it was very different: [4]. I'm suggesting that someone take a stab at a complete rewrite. The more I look at the history the more it looks like Sam Spade is defending things that he originally added to the article, have been removed by others, and then have been replaced by Paul Vogel. This is not in any way mean to imply that there has been any deception on Sam Spade's part -- just that he's not "on the outside looking in" on Paul Vogel's edits. BCorr ¤ Брайен 01:20, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
- I find your insinuations to be rude, and will have you know that I am far from the only person involved in this article, and that your call for a "rewrite" is offensive in the extreme. Every article changes over time. If you have something productive to add rather than insults and bizarre conspiracy theories, please do so. Otherwise I will frankly ask you to go and do some research. Try reviewing Naturalistic Pantheism if your wondering where the old article went to. Sam Spade 01:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Dear Jack, I'm very sorry if you are offended, for I had no intention of being offensive. I do stand my statements, however. I believe that you may not have understood all that I wrote or that you did not try all of the links in the above edit. I certainly did not mean to offend, but I can understand why you might feel I was making insinuations, as I was explicit in my suggestion that I was making no insinuations whatsoever. As you point out, you are by no means the only author or editor of this article, as the link above will clearlyu show to all. I simply mark that as the point at which most of the now controverial material began to appear in the article.
- Please accept my apologies, and understand that when I suggest a rewrite it is the my best suggestion for a way forward that all who have been involved in the article can accept and participate in fully. I sincerely hope that if others respond to what I write or when others edit the article you will not take umbrage against them due to my most heartfelt opinions about the need to rewrite the article.
- With apologies and thanks, BCorr ¤ Брайен 01:55, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)
Please place your complaints against me personally on my talk page, or other more appropriate locales. Thank you, Sam Spade 01:04, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
paul
why are you being silly? Sam Spade 19:37, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Being silly"? How?-PV
duplicate wikilinks to God and to All Sam Spade 03:36, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh? Sorry. Silly me. My bad! LOL! :D -PV
Sanatana Dharma
Is there some particular reason why you dislike the redirect? I much prefer it how it was, and in fact would like to see Hinduism redirect to a page titled Sanatana Dharma :) Sam Spade 18:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
second paragraph
One way to describe pantheism is to say "you are to God, as an individual blood cell in your vein is to you." While a cell may be aware of its own environs, and even has some choices (freewill) between right and wrong (killing a bacteria, becoming malignant, or perhaps just doing nothing, among countless others) it likely has little conception of the greater being of which it is a part.
Are we to believe that our blood cells are sentient beings? :-\ I'm removing this as nonsense. --Tothebarricades.tk 01:27, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- yes, we are. Please don't remove large blocks of textprior to discussion. Sam [Spade] 12:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but I think a better analogy should be put there. I'm not feeling clever enough at the moment. --Tothebarricades.tk 18:25, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well I wrote that particular analogy, and it has been proof-read, discussed and edited over the last year or so since I wrote it, so I am unlikely to provide a superior wording. In my experience its a pretty handy way to convey both the relationship between man and an all inclusive, immanant God, and to remove the egocentric and unnecessary asumption of sentience being unique to humanity. My particular POV assumes all things are conscious, every animal, rock and planet and down to every cell and quark, but maybe thats just the pantheist in me. Regardless of the accuracy of this worldview, I think it is a valid and useful method of explaining our relationship to existance. Sam [Spade] 15:09, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Just some fool with his two cents here--I think it's fine. No one's going to be able to come up with a "better" analogy because (I think) there aren't really any microscopic intelligences and the theoretical macroscopic intelligence of, say, corporations or nations is conjectural and could be struck down for the same reason. There's nothing intelligent inside of something else intelligent, as far as we know. Still, a person understands a cell and a person understands a person, and understands the former is a component of the latter. Cell:Human::Human:God --165.134.186.198 20:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Right, God would be the macro-intelligence, and man the micro-intelligence. I understand sentience is a controversial subject, some even doubt their own sentience. I'm pretty sure what I wrote was neutral, and I didn't mean to claim there was proof of conscious cells. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 21:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Major edits by BM
I don't disagree w your edits generally, but I didn't like the depiction of the contrast between atheist "pantheists", and theist pantheists. This debate is quite signifigant, and has wrecked not just a little havok on this very page in the past. One particularly severe and long term problem (there have been more than one) involved me (a classical pantheist), a naturalistic pantheist, and a peircean cosmotheist all editing simultaneously. Needless to say there was quite a bit of trouble keeping the page clean of POV. The pearcean phreaked out and got got banned, the naturalist largely stopped editing, and I'm still here (not a particularly unusual wiki-tale, I suppose...). Anywho, I welcome additions to the page, but I feel its important to clarify this page has been rather controversial in the past, and therefore NPOV must be stressed. Also, why did you feel the section headers were bad? I largely kept your format, but installed section headers to make it more readable. Thoughts? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 16:56, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Mostly, I was just trying to smoothe out the text and perhaps make things a bit more clear. To be honest, I feel this is the main contribution I can make in the Wikipedia, since I couldn't claim to be an expert on many of the topics I'm interested in. My undergraduate degree from Harvard was in Philosophy, and in the 25 years since I graduated I've read widely on these subjects, but I'm not a professional philosopher, and wouldn't push myself forward as an expert.
Regarding the section you mentioned, the main thing in the sentence I was trying to get away from was the word "tautological", since as stated it wasn't very clear what it was that "atheists" were alleging that pantheists were trying to make true by definition. I think the main criticism from atheists especially of "naturalistic or scientific" pantheism is that it is a trival redefinition of terms. The thing about pantheists being "nature-loving atheists" is a bit of wise-crack, I admit, but it isn't original with me, is a reasonable summary of the criticism, does have the virtue of being a memorable sound-bite, and indeed is also mentioned in one of the various "Panentheism" articles. (There are a few of them, somewhat unfortunately, and I forget now which.) If you reckon its too POV and is going to provoke people, though, I'm not wedded enough to it to spend my life trying to keep it in the article.
Concerning the section headers, it is perhaps a prejudice I have, which is that articles invite reading if they *look* short and succinct, and have a crisp style. I especially associate this with encyclopedias. So, if an article is relatively short -- a page or so, or less -- it is better to remove the headers so that the headers (and the resulting table of contents) don't make the article look long and heavy. Of course, once the articles get to be longer than a page or so, the improvement in organization, etc, outweighs the desire to keep them succinct looking. --BM 17:19, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally, Sam, while I have your attention. I know you're a bold kind of guy. Have you considered merging the Pantheism article and the plethora of Panentheism articles? --BM 17:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Please don't do that. Hasn't pantheism suffered enough here on Wikipedia? A merge with panentheism would be incredibly inappropriate. Pantheism is distinguishable from panentheism in a number of very important ways. I realize that the bias toward "classical" dualistic pantheism (which is similar to panentheism) is remarkably strong here, but to merge the two subjects would be a colossal error. If you must do it, merge the "classical" articles with panentheism, and leave naturalistic pantheism alone, so that the 75% or more of the modern pantheist community who are naturalistic can be accurately represented. If there can't be a good general-purpose pantheism article, we can at least have one related NPOV article on Wikipedia. --Nat 14:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- My compliments on your on your thoughtful reply to my critique. The "atheism for nature lovers" is definitely not unique to you, I've heard that a few times myself (the above mentioned cosmotheist used it, for example ;). The thing about the section headers is interesting. I'm not sure what to say about that. I ad section headers as often as possible as I think it eases ones ability to locate desired info (not to mention making it much easier to edit). However, I'd be open to some discussion on it, maybe a "rule of thumb" regarding length before sectioning would be handy. The part about tautology is slightly original research, i admit. Atheists have often accused me of tautology (whats so bad about tautology anyhow? ;) for saying "God = Existence". It can be removed if it isn't better explained, since I doubt I can reference it. As far as panentheism... this is a difficult subject. If you provide me a list of the articles in question, I'd be glad to set to work merging them w the panentheism article, but alot of people see panentheism as distinct from pantheism. Indeed, the whole question of atheism is a major factor there, since panentheism seems to rule out an unconscious God, while spinoza (many peoples introduction to pantheism) seemed to think Gods unconsciousness was clear (I never did understand him on that). Glad to have you here, and interested in hearing your reply. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 18:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's still POV
The problems discussed in my critique remain largely unaddressed, and there is still a heavy POV bias against naturalistic pantheism. For example, the following:
Their opposite, adherents of Naturalistic Pantheism (such as the World Pantheist Movement), believe in an unconscious, non-sentient universe, which, while being holy and beautiful, is seen as being a God in a non-traditional and impersonal sense. This second group is vigorously criticised both within and outside the pantheist community as being "atheism for nature lovers", with perjoratives such as Pan-Atheism, and Pseudo-pantheism used in their regards.
This sort of biased description makes naturalistic pantheism sound like the "bad seed" and the "black sheep" of pantheism. Naturalistic pantheism is "vigorously criticised both within and outside the pantheist community?" No more so than so-called classical pantheism, which is actually the minority view within the "pantheist community," if the pantheist community is the community of self-declared pantheists. Naturalistic pantheism is by far the dominant view among those who describe themselves specifically as "pantheists."
In addition, "pan-atheism" is a neologism invented by the banned user Paul Vogel, which should have been on VFD ages ago. What's more, pseudo-pantheism once contained a reference to Vogel's Cosmotheism (a true psuedo-pantheism) which was removed by Vogel himself, and ironically, the term is now being used in reference to Naturalistic Pantheism.
Why Sam Spade (a known Vogel sympathizer) is being allowed to do this to pantheism is beyond me. The article is slightly better, but not nearly good enough. It is still both inaccurate and highly POV.
I've indicated that I don't want to rewrite this article in the past, and I still don't want to. However, because I have refused to do so, Wikipedia has had a poor-quality article on pantheism for almost a year now. I don't know how much longer I'll allow it. I may edit soon.
--Nat 14:12, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I encourage you to edit, but caution you to be aware of your own over-riding POV. For example, I am in no way a "vogel sympathizer", the number of times I reverted him alone should attest to that, much less comments such as this one, where I illustrate why I could not advocate against his being banned. In summary, please do edit, but please don't do so in a hostile or POV manner. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 15:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, everyone has a POV. I am as conscious of the fact as anyone. However, I don't feel that I've ever made blatant POV edits to this article. If you can produce evidence that I have, I'll certainly look at it. Again, I'm not here to promote my POV, but to make the article "fair" to all POVs, including my own. That's my idea of NPOV - not slanted toward any particular POV, and not giving short shrift to any.
If I do edit, I can assure you that I will keep NPOV in mind at all times. I don't think I've ever done otherwise, and if I have, it was certainly not intentional. --Nat 00:36, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nat, I don't think your comments concerning the paragraph describing the debate between "naturalistic pantheists" and "classical pantheists" was POV. You were right, and you will notice that I reworked this paragraph. I hope it now meets with your approval. What was POV about it in my opinion was that the description of the "naturalistic pantheists" was followed immediately by critiques of the position. If one is going to describe two positions that are in contention, A and B, and one wants to mention what the A's say about the B's, one better mention what the B's say about the A's, or there is an NPOV problem. --BM
Okay, I've done my best.
I've submitted an edit. My goal was to address as many of the problems I saw in the article as I could, while changing as little of the current content as possible. I think I've done my part at compromise. Now, we need to be sure that others can live with the edit. --Nat 02:07, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hey, nice job. I definitely think its an improvement, although I haven't considered every word. --BM 02:23, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I went over your edits and found them to be good over all, altho there were some issues w original research which I removed, especially regarding cosmotheism. I'm pretty sure most of what you wrote in this regards was relating to your own experience w PV, which altho valid, would be Original research by wiki standards, and thus not allowed. However, if you can cite an example of a pantheist organization taking a stand re: cosmotheism, then that would be great. Frankly, I think cosmotheism is way to obcure for very many people to have any opinion about it at all, and it probably isn't worth us giving so much emphasis to. We still disagree about panentheism, but as you can see in my conversations w BM above, I am careful not to do things like merge pantheism w panentheism, which BM somewhat suggested. I agree there is a distinction, where we disagree is if this distinction is useful. Its very much a philosophical matter, altho i agree that the distinction is what allows room for "naturalistic" pantheism. We could talk about the ramifications of panentheism sometime, philosophically I don't really accept that anything, God included, can be outside of, or apart from existence. In any case I'm perfectly willing to discuss my edits, and outside of the the cosmotheism matter, I tried very hard to retain your additions, despite some minimizing of emphasis on a distinct pantheist / panentheist dichotomey. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 12:30, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Okay, but I'd like to reproduce one of the portions you removed on this page, so that we can have other opinions as to whether or not it constitutes "original research."
Some Cosmotheists claim that their view is a form of pantheism, citing a 1913 Webster's dictionary definition which lists Cosmotheism as a synonym for pantheism. However, some critics maintain that the view has little do with pantheism, except perhaps the most panentheistic varieties. At present, the controversy is ongoing and has not been resolved to the satisfaction of anyone concerned.
A large majority of modern pantheists maintain that there is no place for the suggestion of racialism or other generally divisive social views in pantheism, basing this contention on the idea that the "all is God" basis of pantheism makes it one of the most egalitarian and democratic of spiritual ideas. However, a significant minority within the pantheistic community, consisting largely of Piercean Cosmotheists and their supporters, maintain that a hierarchical order (which may support racialist contentions) is observable in nature, and therefore must be considered an authentic part of God's design. Despite a history of considerable dialogue encompassing both sides of the issue, it is not yet clear how this deep divide in pantheistic views can be adequately resolved.
I don't see how any of this constitutes "original research." It is all based on the stated views of modern pantheists. If you need testimonials to vouch for the accuracy of this information, I'm sure dozens could be produced if we were to contact pantheist organizations and put the question to them. Once again, my credentials are being dismissed. I have been active in the pantheist community for seven years, so I didn't exactly start doing this yesterday. If I listed my positions and accomplishments yet again, I'd be embarassing myself, not to mention the fact that such facts don't seem to matter much to you.
Also, you claim that you tried to retain most of my changes, but the edit history tells a rather different story. Perhaps 50% or more of what I wrote was chopped out. I waited over a year to make this edit, and you removed a good deal of it just a few hours later. Couldn't you have at least researched my additions? I know you couldn't have done so in a period as short as the few hours my edit lasted.
In addition, you state here that what you removed largely had to do with the alleged "original research," but in reality, the edit history shows that you made no less than six separate edits this morning, on several occassions removing and altering large portions of my text which had nothing to do with the racialism section. I encourage anyone who is curious to look at the edit history and confirm this for themselves.
The situation remains largely as it has always been. You have taken charge of this article in a most self-confident way, and you show little or no hesitation about editing quickly and mercilessly. It was a mistake for me to have edited, I think. There is clearly a perception that this article is yours for you to do with as you please, and you clearly have no intention of allowing me any significant say in the matter, beyond perhaps a token "goodwill gesture" of leaving bits and pieces of my edits untouched. As I've stated before, this may be why no other recognized authority on modern pantheism will touch this article.
On the other hand, one interesting change you made was to describe Cosmotheism as "Neo-Nazi." I wouldn't have gone that far myself, but I am at least glad to see you addressing Cosmotheism in critical terms (assuming that Neo-Nazism is in fact something you view negatively).
Again, I am not against you personally, but I am disappointed in how quickly you nullified a good deal of my edit. I didn't make the edit lightly -- after abstaining from editing this article for an entire year, I had hoped that my edit would last longer than a few hours. I must repeat the idea that you couldn't have adequately researched the statements I made in such a short period. Instead, you simply blotted out what you didn't care for -- something I waited patiently for over a year to do to your edit, and you turned around and did it to mine just hours later.
I'd like to ask other contributors to look at my last edit and compare it to the current revision, and give their own thoughts as to whether the material that was removed was really deserving of deletion. --Nat 13:54, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I find your assessment of my actions innaccurate, but to prove that I am open to outside views (including yours), I offer you these links to solicit it:
- I do respect your credentials (as a naturalistic pantheist), but I also question the "offical pantheist stance" bit. Its not terribly important to me however, and since I'm not really all that opposed to original research myself, I will compromise regarding cosmotheism. If you tone down your statements a bit (or reference them) to make it clear that most pantehists have no opinion whatsoever about cosmotheism, because its an extremely obscure form of neo-nazism (even most neo-nazi's probably have never heard of it), but that some naturalistic pantheists who do know about it find it very objectionable, that would be fine. As far as my other edits, I don't think I removed 50% of your additions, compare my edit just before yours w the current version. I moved things around, but went way out of my way to keep your adjustments. I have no desire to keep you or anyone else from editing this article, but I will of course remain involved. Again, I'm glad to have you here, and would hope that you feel the same about my fine self ;) Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 15:28, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, that seems like a pretty reasonable stance on your part. I appreciate your willingness to consider my views on these matters. I'll give the issues regarding Cosmotheism some thought, and see if I can put something back in that we both can live with, and I am glad we are now talking in terms of compromise and mutual co-operation. --Nat 16:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think that the criticism ought to be that this represents original research, since Nat is not advancing these claims as his own findings or as personal testimony. A more apt criticism is that he hasn't cited sources and has used weasel words "Cosmotheists believe...", perhaps relying on these statements being "common knowledge" amongst pantheists. Even that is fine too as long as it goes unchallenged. If no editor questions it, that is reason to believe that it is indeed common knowledge. But once the sources are called for, it is reasonable to expect them to be produced, or else the statements should be removed until someone can produce sources. The weasel words policy is somewhat controversial, and personally I don't object to editors making statements in the articles without weighing them down with constant citation of sources (for example, we don't have the advantage of footnotes); so I don't think the sources need always to be mentioned in the article, but if there is a question, they should be on the Talk page somewhere. --BM 17:35, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Allow me to clarify. Cosmotheism is insanely obscure (especially the even more obscure peircean nazi version). Me and nat have spent oodles of time dealing w one particular cosmotheist, named Paul Vogel. The sorts of things nat was mentioning in the article strike me as being based on that experience, esp. the reference to the 1913 Webster's dictionary, something pv found particularly convincing (lord knows why). Anyways, I don't object to the original research (which I suspect it is, since this particular microscopic faith w maybe 100 adherants max gets precious little discussion generally), what I object to is the suggestion that pantheists generally have an opinion about it, since it is so insanely small, and since most pantheists are hindu's, buddhists, jains, hassidic jews, etc..., whom I doubt spend much time arguing w crazed cosmotheist wing-nuts about outdated dictionary entries online ;) Anyways, the important thing is that Nat knows he is wanted here, and that my edits were not ment to be a slap in the face (as a revert would have been) but rather me working with him to make the article better (which I think were doing :). If it helps any, I have been spending alot of time thinking about what you have said about panentheism, Nat, and would like to discuss that w you again sometime. Glad to have you back! Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 22:02, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. It is true that I had never heard of cosmotheism and Peirce before encountering this article, and I consider myself reasonably well-read in this area. Since white separatism is not an especially large movement, I didn't suppose it was very prominent, but I didn't quite realize how small it was. If what Sam says is so, I am starting to wonder whether cosmotheism and Peirce are significant enough to merit a mention at all. If it is mentioned, surely it should be no more than a single sentence, an aside. There seems to be an article on cosmotheism, which might arguably be deleted. Nat, you apparently think this is more noteworthy in the context of pantheism than Sam has indicated. Why is that? Is cosmotheism on the radar of most pantheists or simply a footnote? --BM 22:15, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I've been thinking about what both you and Sam have presented in regard to this issue, and I think you are probably both right. Whether or not my remarks on cosmotheism consituted original research, I tend to agree that the view is a very small and relatively insignificant one, and so I've decided that I really don't have a legitimate objection to the removal of that material. Sam is probably correct in his assesment that my own interactions with Vogel (which go back more than four years) may have influenced me unduly. Note that this is not quite the same as POV bias, but it is a (slightly different) issue of editor bias on my part, having to do more with experiences than with beliefs. Vogel aside, cosmotheism is hardly ever mentioned, and is certainly quite obscure. I am going to try to look at this from a viewpoint outside my own experience, and as Sam points out, the experience of most pantheists most likely does not include the kind of Vogel-antics I have unfortunately had to endure. I only give attention to cosmotheism because Paul Vogel has been pushing it in my face for a very long time, and I have have had to respond to it on many internet forums, starting long before his first appearance here. --Nat 10:19, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
With that in mind, I removed the extra section (which in my view was making us all look bad by association) and left the sentance under debate, which expresses their view neatly, which making it clear they are controvercial, and implying that other pantheists may very well not accept them. What I had ment about original research was simply that you were in part describing your own experiences, not that you had made anything up, or anything of that sort. In any case, I hope this compromise is acceptable to all? For the record I oppose deletion of Cosmotheism, it is a worthwhile article, altho I might agree w nat on pan-atheism. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 12:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Brahminism
Direct worship of Brahman is most applicable to this article, I believe. Specifics about Hindu faiths which are less pantheistic, focusing on gods other than brahman, is less applicable. Also, I reverted some strange comments by Acidmonkey in the Judaism section. Cheers, Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 01:59, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No, you are mistaken. All Hindu faiths that focus on personal God are mostly pantheistic/pannentheistic as there is no difference between Brahman and the personal God. I was born Hindu so I am familiar. Raj2004 17:12, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) Raj2004
Pantheism in Hinduism
I think we need to be careful to keep this content focused on pantheism. Usage of fire in worship, for example, is not directly applicable to this page. I really think a link to brahminism would be beneficial, but i am willing to wait on that. I disagree that Arya Samaj rejects the formful god, rather they consider both the formful and the formless to be combined in the absolute, unless I am mistaken. 12:22, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sam, I agrees you can remove the fire usage in worship but that binds all Hindus. I believe you may be confused. Arya Samaj rejects conception of formful God; see, http://www.aryasamaj.com/ten.htm and http://www.swamiagnivesh.com/genuine.htm, rejection of personal God; they consider only worship of the Upanishadic Brahman. Your concepton of God being both formless and formful is found in Advaita theology. Adviata holds personal Gods and Brahman to be the same. (Nirguna Brahman/Saguna Brahman distinction; see Swami Sivananda's All About Hinduism; pleasee see the vedanta and sivananda society links.
Swami Sivananda said in Advaita philosophy, "Sankara’s Supreme Brahman is impersonal, Nirguna (without Gunas or attributes), Nirakara (formless), Nirvisesha (without special characteristics), immutable, eternal and Akarta (non-agent). It is above all needs and desires. It is always the Witnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond the reach of the senses. Brahman is non-dual, one without a second. It has no other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external or internal. Brahman cannot be described, because description implies distinction. Brahman cannot be distinguished from any other than It. In Brahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes.
The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara is impersonal. It becomes a personal God or Saguna Brahman only through Its association with Maya.
Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. Nirguna Brahman is the higher Brahman, the Brahman from the transcendental viewpoint (Paramarthika); Saguna Brahman is the lower Brahman, the Brahman from the relative viewpoint (Vyavaharika). " It is important to clarify that pantheism is component of Advaita especially. It is also important to show ista deva is really conceptualizing God with form. Also Hindus use fire and murtis to focus on God. Arya Samaj still needs focus but uses fire only. Again as I said before, no Hindu uses the term Brahmanism which is an antiquated term. Use Smarta which is the Hindu Term or Vedanta. Hope this clarifies.
Raj2004 15:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) Raj2004
- I use brahmanism because it clarifies the focus on brahman. What else might you call one who worships brahman directly? Smarta is of course not an acceptable substitute in this case. I am aware of the importance of fire in Hinduism, but I think you understand that this is is not a factor in the discussion of pantheism. If what you seem to be saying about arya samaj is true, that arya samaj does not understand brahman to be both the formful and the formless, than arya samaj is not pantheist at all, and should not be mentioned here. However, that is not how I interpret their doctrines. I wish we had an arya samaj adherant available to ask... Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:19, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Arya samaj belives only in the formful. Advaita, is what you have in mind. It believes Brahman to be formful and formless. So Smarta is a good term. There are Smarta Vedanta monists who worship Brahman directly as Advaita said both are acceptable. The sites speak for itself but if there is an Arya Samaj adherent who has any more insight, that would be great. Raj2004 21:29, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Discussion of "form"
When I say formful in regards to God, I mean this in a pantheist sense, that he has every form, and also in the panentheist sense, that he is also those things which have not form, or have not yet come into being, or were once formful, but have now since dissipated. To say God is only formless is very different from saying God is formless. For example, God = All, but this does not mean that any one part is all of him. My computer (or a rock, or etc...) is one small part of God, but I do not worship my computer, I worship God in his entirety, if you understand. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:26, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- P.s. I have asked for some additional input @ Talk:Hinduism#Debate_on_Talk:Pantheism, only to ensure all views are represented, and that we might more perfectly express these weighty matters. I hope you do not mind, Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:31, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I completely understand. I don't mind at all. We learn from each other. Your questions only help solidify my knowledge. Advaita is what you have in mind, not Arya Samaj. A similar term would be Vedanta monism. Raj2004 21:37, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I hope that nothing that we have said or discussed on this matter has annoyed or offended you in any way. You are one of the most pleasent and agreeable users I have known, and I can say this with confidence because I have spoken to you so often.
- When discussing esoteric matters, the reason for difference of opinion is most often definition of terms, IMO. The nature of God, dharma, metaphysics, etc... are very difficult to discuss, and the misunderstandings about them are almopst always semantic. Essentially I doubt we disagree about much of anything, but rather misunderstand one another on certain key terms and doctrines.
"He is Formless" of
- 2. God is Existent, Intelligent and Blissful. He is Formless, Almighty, Just, Merciful, Unborn, Infinite, Unchallengeable, Beginningless, Incomparable, the Support and Lord of all, Omniscient, Imperishable, Immortal, Fearless, Eternal, Holy and the Maker of the universe. To Him alone worship is due.
- from doctrine 2 of arya samaj is where we misunderstand, I feel. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 22:56, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sam, I am not annoyed at all and I find your questions helpful. I still remember when you and I disagreed with dbachmane about mention of Brahman in the Vedas, and I had to refer him to Sri Rudram which described Lord Siva as Brahman and that chant is at least 3000 years old! and is probably much older as there was extensive oral tradition. Talking about God, as you correctly point out is complicated and difficult to define. As I said, we learn from each other. Many people ask me about Hinduism and I try to explain or refer to good sources. Doctrine 2 is at issue. From my understanding, Arya Samaj believes God has no form and hence does not take form as Saguna Brahman (Vishnu, Siva) nor takes avatars (Krishna, Jesus). For then, it appears to be degrading that God takes form. A strict Hindu theist would say God is gracious and merciful to descend out of His own will. But this does not necessarily contradict panetheism in Arya Samaj. For Arya Samaj, Brahman is everything like most Hindus . However, they disgree with Vedanta (Adviata, etc.) that God ever takes form. So it is a little more limiting than Advaita. Hope this helps. Raj2004 00:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Good, I appreciate yopur graciousness, and am only cautious because the subject of religion is so personal, and thus it is easy for many to take offence; I am gladdened that you have not. Now, two particulars from what you have said:
- Arya Samaj believes God has no form
and
- But this does not necessarily contradict panetheism in Arya Samaj. For Arya Samaj, Brahman is everything like most Hindus.
- I am uncertain if both of these can be true. If God has no form at all, how can he be everything (including that with form)? Would it be better to say "For arya samaj, God has no one form"? Cheers, Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 09:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No, all Hindus believe that God has no particular form. For example, shaivites and vaishnavites believe Siva and Vishnu has no particular form and can be any form, despite manifesting in a form commonly portrayed. I think Arya Samaj believes that God does not manifest into a form nor incarnates. Raj2004 12:03, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) This the language from Arya Samaj I find problematic: "An other distinctive feature of the monotheism of the Arya Samaj is that, it does not believe in any physical or personal God. And therefore, there is no question of His residing in heaven or taking birth as an avatar or incarnation. The first principle says that "God is the primary and original source of all true knowledge" and the second principle describes "all the essential characteristics of its conception of God". God is incorporeal and therefore, there is no question of his being a person or having any physical existence or identity. That is why, He is "all pervading" and "free from birth, death, fear, disease or decay."
One may say that if there is a God, He can be only one who has all the characteristics given in this second principle, otherwise, there would be many inconsistencies and contradictions about Him. For example, if He is born, He cannot be immortal. Similarly, if He has a body or an abode in Heaven, He cannot possibly be everywhere or all powerful. If He is just and merciful, He cannot do or undo anything as he likes nor can He be flattered by our prayers or angered by our indifference to Him. In other words, Dayanand has tried to so rationalise the conception of God that while it satisfies the need or urge of man for God, it also makes it possible for him to continue to believe in His existence in spite of the growing advance in science and human knowledge. God is not a person whose existence we can deny or refuse to accept but it is a power, which even those who do not believe in Him." from http://www.swamiagnivesh.com/genuine.htm
This does not conform with Advaita principles which is what I think you have mind. Vishnu is a Person that can manifest in any form. Note that while Vishnu is commonly portrayed with human features, Swami Tapasyananda, in his book, Bhakti Schools of Vedanta, reminds readers that Vishnu pervades everything and is not anthropomorphic. Attributing anthrompormorphic characteristics to Vishnu is a common misconception held by non-Hindus. Vishnu has no particular material form but can manifest in any form, and is a center of all force, power, will, auspiciousness, goodness, beauty, grace, responsiveness, etc. He incarnates out of His own free will. Praying to God is way to seek His grace. He does this in order to help us. Arya Samaj seems non-theistic to me. Raj2004 12:07, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I would agree, if indeed they mean to say he is only formless, but I had assumed they had only ment that he is not anthropomorphic, not a deva, etc... I myself would say that God is every form, and formlesness as well, however I worship him in total, not only one part. Also the absolute has a personal nature with which one can communicate and commune, recieve blessings and give thanxs, etc.. Cheers, Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:11, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Again, Sam your views seem similar to Advaita philosophy which holds all your beliefs. From what I have read (from those arya samaj web sites), it appears they don't hold all the beliefs that Advaita holds dear, such as the absolute having a personal nature as well. Raj2004 17:56, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Cosmotheism version of God
- I wish to propose an entry into pantheism as to how cosmotheists see God, the universe and Nature as not only one, but one process towards a final outcome. I propose this because in pantheism, it says cosmothiests dont have a clear picture of what their god is, or what god is. I am here to tell you that is wrong, cosmotheism has a precise understanding of what god is. I ask you to consider this and allow it to be added to cosmotheism. Here is goes....
Cosmotheism, is a small and controversial racialist group which considers itself a form of pantheism. Through a big picture lens, Cosmotheism has a Transhumanist interpretation of God as the final product of self-directed racial, creative and conscious evolution. God is thus the final stage of a pantheist universe which does not exist at present, but will exist in the future. Cosmotheism sees the pantheist universe of the present and past as a kind of metaphorical pre-programmed blind and brute force mathematical equation unravelling as a cosmic process and transformation which unconsciously is going through stages of development towards an end point of God. More importantly, God in cosmotheism is not only an end point, but how one gets there is an extremely important, specific and precise path. Taking a step back and looking into the past, cosmotheists see life coming into existence as a product of purpose from this blind and unconscious cosmic evolution of the pantheist universe. During unconscious lifes explosion of variety and brute force evolution over time, at some point life as a whole crosses a stage where a sub set combination occurs within its variation possessing iminent consciousness - or sentience. Cosmotheism thus sees as the present embodiment of the divine purpose and highest stage of consciousness in life within the European people. More specifically, Cosmotheists believe that only special racially awakened members within the descendents of Europe reflect the universes highest level of the creative and continued urge towards Godhood. Racism is then perceived in this racialist version of pantheism as the necessary force to create a distinct speciation or narrow evolutionary path towards the universe continuing its conscious evolution towards Godhood. Thus with this new divine awareness, self-chosen racialists members of the white race use their racist consciousness as a community to see the once dark maze no longer blind or in darkness. With illumination and foresight, the divinely awakened exit the blind maze and then see a clear path, one which directs them into a prescient future of conscious evolution to achieve ever higher states of physical, mental and spiritual being. The higher states of being are stepping stones towards a final omega point of absolute, total and infinite universal consciousness. God in the cosmotheist vision is then the end stage of a pantheist universe attaining a state of absolute, infinite and perfect self-awareness of itself in totality through racist conscious evolution. At this final and completed stage, Godhood in cosmotheism is the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence consciousness which bridges, merges and converges all the knowledge in the universe, time and space, and the past and future as the one eternal presence of consciousness.
Here is my proposal
Dnagod 00:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)